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post #541 of 619 Old 09-19-2008, 07:10 PM
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I think the larger isssue to be made is that tyree91, remember him, the guy that started the thread to begin with! He had a few things to say.

Let's recap for a moment shall we. tyree said...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post

I guess you skipped this part: "Whether certain steering modes are proprietary to Theta is not the important issue here. It is the overall SQ."

to which thebland remarks...

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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Yes, but that skirts the Theta owners claims of proprietary this and that... Proprietary modes are the discussion... SQ is for another day and thread.

Really!! See I thought the guy starting the thread was talking about...well let's see what he said in reply to the last quote...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post

Jeff, as the OP I was just trying to use Personally Proprietary Steering to try to get the discussion back where it belongs , Theta's new HDMI upgrade and SQ of HT Pre/Pros which is what the $20K forums should be about when it comes to the Audio side of HT. Regards, Norm

Then of course, we have Doug who loves to jump on the bandwagon, who says...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougWinsor View Post

Now that the theta assumptions have been shot down the owners all of a sudden try and switch to the argument of sound quality, something that is completely subjective.

So...unless we've been hijacked, the discussion IS about SQ and not for another day or another thread.
And the subject has not been switched all of a sudden....DOUG.
Try to follow along.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled nonsense.

TURN IT UP!
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post #542 of 619 Old 09-19-2008, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I care about music, but I am in a firm believe that one system cannot be a reference audio system AND a reference theater. Nothing more..

You are wrong. One system can be darn excellent at both. My system/room on audio is better than most two channel systems that folks demoing my system have heard. If your system sucks on music then it ain't near as good as you think on video!

You mean you don't remember me? Back 1999 - 2003, I started and moderated the AVS Tweaks forum and also the AVS Special Guests forum.

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post #543 of 619 Old 09-19-2008, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

If your system sucks on music then it ain't near as good as you think on video!

That's probably true !!

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post #544 of 619 Old 09-20-2008, 04:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

You are wrong. One system can be darn excellent at both. My system/room on audio is better than most two channel systems that folks demoing my system have heard. If your system sucks on music then it ain't near as good as you think on video!

Excellent in both, I agree in system can be an excellent performer for movies and serious audio... But I said reference sounding. So, no way for both an ideal audio environment and an ideal video environment all in one system/room. Impossible.

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #545 of 619 Old 09-20-2008, 05:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

...no way for both an ideal audio environment and an ideal video environment all in one system/room. Impossible.

I suppose the minute you put a screen in a room, the laws of acoustics change?
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post #546 of 619 Old 09-20-2008, 06:44 AM
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[quote=Steve Bruzonsky;14678328]

I have a 5.1 (3 subs chained) system, so I really haven't paid attention to side channels, though I understand they are derived and nothing real proprietary here I would think. Same I would think goes for rear center channel. I don't know that sides or center rear use anything particularly proprietary. SDurani may be right about this.
[quote]

Steve, I was referring to the above quote. The first generation CB had proprietary processing that derived a center and surround channels from two channel material. A couple of reviews actually seemed to thank Circle Surround was not needed. Here's a quote," As mentioned above, a Circle Surround option is available for extracting ambience from 2channel recordings, but I heard little difference between this and Theta's own Matrix mode. Perhaps with more channels in play, the results would be different, but if you're going for the classic 5.1 setup, save your money. Theta's Matrix is good enough." THIS IS NOT SRS LABS PROCESSING BUT A PROPRIETARY MODE. It is similiar to hafler sum/difference circuits. "The Theta-developed analog matrix and digital matrix modes that originally came with the review unit were also just ho-hum. Essentially, they are Hafler sum/difference circuits." This an early review http://www.vxm.com/21R.129.html You can do some further checking. Theta has always used it's own proprietary modes. This is NOT in question. Yeah there may be a lot of ignorance of it's use but it's always existed. Here's another mention of Theta's "Matrix," in a Secrets of Hometheater and Hifidelity! "For CDs, you have to select the type of processing you want. For example, just plain vanilla stereo, or Pro Logic, or Theta's version of Matrix." There are several references to Theta's proprietary matrix modes in the older reviews. Personally I use DD Prologic II but I am not to either tell anyone that the proprietary mode does not exist and to instruct them as to which they should prefer. Case closed for me.

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post #547 of 619 Old 09-20-2008, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Excellent in both, I agree in system can be an excellent performer for movies and serious audio... But I said reference sounding. So, no way for both an ideal audio environment and an ideal video environment all in one system/room. Impossible.

Still that's no excuse to just give up and chose inferior equipment. The student has surpassed the teacher here. You need to follow Art's led. Art's audio and video set-up look excellent. I have never heard his speakers but expect that Seaton knows what he's doing. You should stop wasting your money jumping from surround processor to surround processor and get Mark Seaton back over so that you can have some better components. I'd suggest the Dolby Lakes model Art uses and at least the same speakers. Here's a quote from the Stewart Filmscreens WP on AT screens,"Now we turn our attention to the audio portion of the cinema experience. One
of my favorite comments about the relationship between audio and visual
is that you can never fully appreciate a superb picture without experiencing
great audio. In exhaustive tests over the years, cinema audience members have
been shown great images with mediocre audio and vice versa with mediocre
visuals and outstanding audio. In exit interviews after the tests, respondents
gave higher marks to the sessions with outstanding audio and actually criticized
the picture in the samples with mediocre audio." Take note.

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post #548 of 619 Old 09-20-2008, 07:23 AM
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You're wrong again (but still heavily biased). Movie sound in Art's and my own room are certainly reference in movie sound. But if I was an audio guy, I would leave the microperf and baffle wall out of my music room plans... Don't you think?... Or perhaps show me where a designer of of reference audio listening spaces where the designer recommends putting speakers behind a microperf for the ultimate in reproduction of a Sheffield Labs or Delos recording.....

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There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #549 of 619 Old 09-20-2008, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faberryman View Post

I suppose the minute you put a screen in a room, the laws of acoustics change?


I'm sure Jonathan Scull recommneds Microperfs for his friends with sophisticated music systems... Well, Stewart says its OK...

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #550 of 619 Old 09-20-2008, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

You're wrong again (but still heavily biased). Movie sound in Art's and my own room are certainly reference in movie sound. But if I was an audio guy, I would leave the microperf and baffle wall out of my music room plans... Don't you think?... Or perhaps show me where a designer of of reference audio listening spaces where the designer recommends putting speakers behind a microperf for the ultimate in reproduction of a Sheffield Labs or Delos recording.....

From the distance I'm at Art room looks superior for audio than yours, not the same level. Your room is more like a Dance hall or Discotech. Need to get yourself one of those mirror balls.

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post #551 of 619 Old 09-20-2008, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post

I guess you skipped this part: "Whether certain steering modes are proprietary to Theta is not the important issue here. It is the overall SQ."

I guess you skipped all the rest of the discussion in which absurd claims were made about Theta's "proprietary" processing. The "skipped part" you reference here contains no useful information, it is simply an assertion of preference dressed up as "absolute truth" as an end run around factual discussion, a cheap rhetorical ploy you are clearly content to parrot. Nevertheless, regardless of what you may personally prefer about surround modes, the fact remains that it is ridiculous to assert that Theta has contributed anything comparable to companies that have actually invested in the personnel and expertise to develop true proprietary surround processing.

Any more red herrings you'd care to toss in?

Cheers,
Philip Brandes
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post #552 of 619 Old 09-20-2008, 08:32 AM
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You guys are missing the point. Any hometheater room where music is flat and uninvolving has just move theater type sound and not top quality audio and video sound.
When someone like The Bland tells you that music doesn't sound good in his theater but movies do, thats a cop out!!!@@@

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post #553 of 619 Old 09-20-2008, 08:33 AM
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You can do both at reference levels, but then it won't look like a 'home theater' that everyone wants. I don't view any of the systems I've seen as being possible of true reference quality sound, but they sure are pretty. The whole 'inwall/onwall' speakers thing just doesn't do it for me.

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post #554 of 619 Old 09-20-2008, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

From the distance I'm at Art room looks superior for audio than yours, not the same level. Your room is more like a Dance hall or Discotech. Need to get yourself one of those mirror balls.

You made my point. Like the Theta proprietary speak that you obviously have no clue about, you make judgements on sound (or rooms) without ever having visited either... This coming from a guy who makes cut outs and pastes them to his ceiling for better sound??!!!

Why not ask someone who has heard both rooms...like Art? Or is guessnig still your best way of audio and video judgement???

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #555 of 619 Old 09-20-2008, 08:52 AM
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It isn't that the differentiator is music or movies for a room it is if the room is for 2 channel playback or surround playback. You need different attributes in a room depending upon the above. For 2 channel you need the room to add some ambiance to the playback or music will sound lifeless. With surround the surrounds reproduce that ambiance directly so the room does not need to supply it.

Shawn
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post #556 of 619 Old 09-20-2008, 09:09 AM
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Agreed.. For me, I am speaking of 2 channel... and if multi-channel, I'd find placing 3 speakers in a line behind a microperf / baffle wall not 'ideal' for a reference music room. But, obviously, Bulldogger and others do...

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #557 of 619 Old 09-20-2008, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Digtital out from the Casablanca to either (a)external DACS or (b) to external digital room correction then to external DACs. I did not want to use analog out from the CB, then use a room correction device to convert to digital (all room correction systems do their thing in digital except traditional EQ devices) and then back to analog. Plus, by using external DAC's I was not bound by timing, availability, pricing or quality of Theta DACS.

I would suspect that the new HDMI CB will not allow utilizing external DACs AND take advantage of the new high end audio coding.

What are you using for volume control for all 7 channels?
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post #558 of 619 Old 09-20-2008, 09:22 AM
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I recommend for anyone who hasn't tried this - take 5-7 identical monitors, even cheap ones, (and some matched subs) and set up each one with the face of all the speakers 2.5' or more from any wall in the prescribed pattern appropriate for the number of speakers. Then play movies and multi-channel music on it. There are things that happen with this setup that just don't happen with even the 'best' multi hundred $thousand home theaters.

John
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Quote:


So...unless we've been hijacked, the discussion IS about SQ and not for another day or another thread.
And the subject has not been switched all of a sudden....DOUG.
Try to follow along.

The theta owners brought up the point and started to bash lexicon products so you can blame them/yourself for that. But once it was discussed that theta has nothing proprietary the theta owners tried to back track and change the subject to sound quality.

Quote:


You are wrong. One system can be darn excellent at both. My system/room on audio is better than most two channel systems that folks demoing my system have heard. If your system sucks on music then it ain't near as good as you think on video!

Yes, lets all trust what steve says since he was correct about theta's proprietary software. Wink wink nudge nudge say no more. Honestly steve you should be in a monty python skit.

Quote:


You're wrong again (but still heavily biased). Movie sound in Art's and my own room are certainly reference in movie sound. But if I was an audio guy, I would leave the microperf and baffle wall out of my music room plans... Don't you think?... Or perhaps show me where a designer of of reference audio listening spaces where the designer recommends putting speakers behind a microperf for the ultimate in reproduction of a Sheffield Labs or Delos recording.....

I can see it now, 2CH only systems with microperf screens or maybe they already do this at the audio asylum.

Quote:


I guess you skipped all the rest of the discussion in which absurd claims were made about Theta's "proprietary" processing. The "skipped part" you reference here contains no useful information, it is simply an assertion of preference dressed up as "absolute truth" as an end run around factual discussion, a cheap rhetorical ploy you are clearly content to parrot. Nevertheless, regardless of what you may personally prefer about surround modes, the fact remains that it is ridiculous to assert that Theta has contributed anything comparable to companies that have actually invested in the personnel and expertise to develop true proprietary surround processing.

Any more red herrings you'd care to toss in?

Cheers,
Philip Brandes

I really think the theme song for theta should be ACDC - Shot down in flames.

Quote:


You made my point. Like the Theta proprietary speak that you obviously have no clue about, you make judgements on sound (or rooms) without ever having visited either... This coming from a guy who makes cut outs and pastes them to his ceiling for better sound??!!!

Why not ask someone who has heard both rooms...like Art? Or is guessnig still your best way of audio and video judgement???

I also found it funny how he was judging your room on looks.
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post #560 of 619 Old 09-20-2008, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

I recommend for anyone who hasn't tried this - take 5-7 identical monitors, even cheap ones, (and some matched subs) and set up each one with the face of all the speakers 2.5' or more from any wall in the prescribed pattern appropriate for the number of speakers. Then play movies and multi-channel music on it. There are things that happen with this setup that just don't happen with even the 'best' multi hundred $thousand home theaters.

Darn!!! You and I agree!!! WOW!!!!

You mean you don't remember me? Back 1999 - 2003, I started and moderated the AVS Tweaks forum and also the AVS Special Guests forum.

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post #561 of 619 Old 09-20-2008, 09:50 AM
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Jeff, how do you like the sound of The Eagles HD DVD or Blu Ray in DTS-HD multi-channel in your home theater. Does it sound like in a movie theater? Or does it sound a lot better than a movie theater?

You mean you don't remember me? Back 1999 - 2003, I started and moderated the AVS Tweaks forum and also the AVS Special Guests forum.

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post #562 of 619 Old 09-20-2008, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

You made my point. Like the Theta proprietary speak that you obviously have no clue about, you make judgements on sound (or rooms) without ever having visited either... This coming from a guy who makes cut outs and pastes them to his ceiling for better sound??!!!

Why not ask someone who has heard both rooms...like Art? Or is guessnig still your best way of audio and video judgement???

Great point! Anyone who makes the assumption of how a room sounds based on pictures is laughable at best. I will say though that all those leds from your equipment in the back of the room HAS to be killing contrast and black levels.
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post #563 of 619 Old 09-20-2008, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikenificent1 View Post

Great point! Anyone who makes the assumption of how a room sounds based on pictures is laughable at best. I will say though that all those leds from your equipment in the back of the room HAS to be killing contrast and black levels.

Electrical tape!! I did check that and noticed reds were OK but Blue and Green LEDs are really powerful. My sub DSP and Gefen HDMI switch have very bright Blue LEDs and it can light up my screen when all lights are down. So, I have electrical tape over them.

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There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #564 of 619 Old 09-20-2008, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

Jeff, how do you like the sound of The Eagles HD DVD or Blu Ray in DTS-HD multi-channel in your home theater. Does it sound like in a movie theater? Or does it sound a lot better than a movie theater?


I gotta tell you, live concerts like Queen or Celine Dion are very excellent sounding. Full dynamics and bass. No, complaints. With peaks well over 120 db, the theater can give you the 'you are there' feeling..

But that is a multi channel, multi-track soundtrack designed for being played loud.

But, to critically listen to the transients of a Harp, or piano, the room gives ita less than 'airy' sound. The best recordings are carefully mic'd and recorded. I'm sorry but an acoustically treated theater with a perforated screen over the speakers won't cut it for an audio reference. Likely the screen over all the speakers and the lack of space around the speakers doesn't help either but is critically important for a home theater. I have a significant baffle wall to minimize reflections of the screen, too...

Bulldogger seems to think a 14' screen is no issue when reproducing a basson or flute, but he just guesses anyways.. I'd rather judge a reference recording in a dedicated room like Mike Fremer's or Sculls, rather than in an ideal theater environment like mine or Art's. The transparent screen just doesn't do it for me when tring to get the best musical reproduction... (no offense, Art)

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There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #565 of 619 Old 09-20-2008, 10:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip Brandes View Post

...regardless of what you may personally prefer about surround modes, the fact remains that it is ridiculous to assert that Theta has contributed anything comparable to companies that have actually invested in the personnel and expertise to develop true proprietary surround processing

I have re-read the posts and nobody asserted that.
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post #566 of 619 Old 09-20-2008, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

Darn!!! You and I agree!!! WOW!!!!

Even a lawyer is right twice a day

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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I'm sure Jonathan Scull recommneds Microperfs for his friends with sophisticated music systems... Well, Stewart says its OK...

Who said anything about microperf screens?
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post #568 of 619 Old 09-20-2008, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faberryman View Post

Who said anything about microperf screens?

Bulldogger... In his ludicrous claim that a reference theater can sound as good as a reference movie room. I disagree.... He quoted Stewart above in bolstering his argument... He feels a Microperf draped over some Wilsons takes nothing away from their precise sonics!!!

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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

So, no way for both an ideal audio environment and an ideal video environment all in one system/room. Impossible.

Why not?
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post #570 of 619 Old 09-20-2008, 01:57 PM
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Go back and read the thread..

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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