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post #601 of 619 Old 09-21-2008, 08:00 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip Brandes View Post

What I know for a fact is that nothing posted here establishes that anything Theta provides with respect to surround processing is in any way proprietary as opposed to plugging in off-the-shelf technology.

That's quite a different claim than the claim you made in your previous post:
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Originally Posted by Philip Brandes View Post

"To assert or even imply that Theta offers any proprietary surround processing at all is misleading. They do not."

I think you need to take you own advice and remember:
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Originally Posted by Philip Brandes View Post

Simply making the claim in a forum post doesn't make it true

applies to your assertions as well.

Theta claims that its implementation of its surround modes is proprietary. Posters here repeat that claim. You and others assert as fact that their implementation is not proprietary but offer no factual basis in support of your claim. Your assertion boils down to this: "Theta is lying. Prove they are not." When Theta owners cannot prove Theta's claim because the information required for the proof is not publicly available, you believe it validates your unsupported claim to the contrary. It is simply fallacious reasoning used to discredit Theta. If you made the more modest claim like: "While Theta's implementation of surround modes may be proprietary, it does not advance the state of the art", you might even have some Theta owners agree with you. As an added bonus, you might even reclaim some credibility.
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post #602 of 619 Old 09-21-2008, 08:07 AM
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Theta claims that its implementation of its surround modes is proprietary.

At risk of being accused of hit-and-run argumentation (guilty as charged), I should point out that there is a difference between writing your own, proprietary code to implement a standard surround decoder like, say, DPLIIx and developing your proprietary decoder like Logic7. A lack of appreciation of that difference might be the source of some of the conflict.

Michael
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post #603 of 619 Old 09-21-2008, 08:12 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Michael Grant View Post

At risk of being accused of hit-and-run argumentation (guilty as charged), I should point out that there is a difference between writing your own, proprietary code to implement a standard surround decoder like, say, DPLIIx and developing your proprietary decoder like Logic7. A lack of appreciation of that difference might be the source of some of the conflict.

A reasonable claim that even Theta owners might agree with.
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post #604 of 619 Old 09-21-2008, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

"If you look at it, the extra surround mode was all Lexicon had up its sleeve. One trick pony."

That is laughable.....

Shawn

Why? That's about the only thing that differentiated it from a B&K. Well, that and 100% higher price.

Besides, Harman bought Fosgate, raided its technology and personnel, folded the company and gave all that to Lexicon. But then a lot of those guys like Charlie that really mattered up and left after awhile. It would be like Microsoft buying Google and claiming to be a leader in search engines.

John
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post #605 of 619 Old 09-21-2008, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Grant View Post

At risk of being accused of hit-and-run argumentation (guilty as charged), I should point out that there is a difference between writing your own, proprietary code to implement a standard surround decoder like, say, DPLIIx and developing your proprietary decoder like Logic7. A lack of appreciation of that difference might be the source of some of the conflict.

"We tweaked it, therefore, it is proprietary" Kinda like when a company asks for a cosmetic or voice coil change on a Seas driver and then calls it 'proprietary'. See also "slightly modified".

That being said, to me, modularity is a bigger leap forward than an increasingly dated 2-channel based surround technology.

John
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post #606 of 619 Old 09-21-2008, 09:25 AM
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Phil, I haven't even been to CES in five years.

"Accosted" - that's a big word. I don't even recall ever meeting Stuart Robinson or anyone from SMR Forums, though its possible.

Regarding whose SMR financial relationship with what, thank you for clarifying. How would I know? Its not like SMR at its forum has an easy way to find out financial ownership. Back in the days when I moderated the AVS Special Guests forum, I recall talking with someone at Lexicon and they respectfully refused to come on AVS as a Special Guest saying they had an ongoing relationship with SMR and couldn't go on somewhere else (if my memory is any good). And hey, an "official" Lexicon forum, normally in the business world if something is "official" there is some sort of payment, whether for business work and skill, or simply advertising dollars. Web forums are like print advertising in that they are still here for the most part to make some sort of profit.

Phil, how did you know about my contacting Lexicon (not SMR, not Stuart Robinson, not you, thats for sure) about Lexicon being an AVS Special Guest? Talk about a "tight" relationship of you and Lexicon for them to tell you that sort of thing. No wonder you go all out for Lexicon as the Lexicon policeman of the internet.

Anyway,this all gets away from what's really important = sound quality. So let's get back to Theta.

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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post #607 of 619 Old 09-21-2008, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Grant View Post

At risk of being accused of hit-and-run argumentation (guilty as charged), I should point out that there is a difference between writing your own, proprietary code to implement a standard surround decoder like, say, DPLIIx and developing your proprietary decoder like Logic7. A lack of appreciation of that difference might be the source of some of the conflict.

I agree!!!

Back to sound quality!!!???

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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post #608 of 619 Old 09-21-2008, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

Phil, I haven't even been to CES in five years…
"Accosted" - that's a big word. I don't even recall ever meeting Stuart Robinson or anyone from SMR Forums, though its possible.

It was CES 2001, actually. Andre Yew and I were trying to get to the Runco press conference at the Beach and you cornered us at the entrance and launched into a rambling laundry list of your equipment and why you love your Theta. You were three times as loud and obnoxious in person as you are in print. We couldn’t get rid of you. At the time, I told you I thought the Blanca was a fine-sounding processor and a good fit for you, and have never said or written otherwise, though it hasn’t stopped you from the bullying personal invective you’ve resorted to whenever I or anyone else pointed out factual information about differences in surround processor capabilities. This latest attempt to smear me is a new low even for you, however.

Quote:


Regarding whose SMR financial relationship with what, thank you for clarifying. How would I know? Its not like SMR at its forum has an easy way to find out financial ownership. Back in the days when I moderated the AVS Special Guests forum, I recall talking with someone at Lexicon and they respectfully refused to come on AVS as a Special Guest saying they had an ongoing relationship with SMR and couldn't go on somewhere else (if my memory is any good). And hey, an "official" Lexicon forum, normally in the business world if something is "official" there is some sort of payment, whether for business work and skill, or simply advertising dollars. Web forums are like print advertising in that they are still here for the most part to make some sort of profit.

We all know how much you love to hear yourself talk. Your attempt to restrict the word “official” to the meaning that fits your agenda (“association with payment” is not in any dictionary definition, btw) is amusing, but irrelevant. The SMR site is official in the sense of authoritative, because Lexicon reps post there exclusively.

Quote:


Phil, how did you know about my contacting Lexicon (not SMR, not Stuart Robinson, not you, thats for sure) about Lexicon being an AVS Special Guest? Talk about a "tight" relationship of you and Lexicon for them to tell you that sort of thing. No wonder you go all out for Lexicon as the Lexicon policeman of the internet.

LOL, there you go again making things up out of your own paranoid delusions. I didn’t hear about it from Lexicon, I heard it from you--it in one of your bloviating, self-pitying online temper tantrums in which you whined about the fact that they had refused your invitation. Care to embarrass yourself any further?

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post #609 of 619 Old 09-21-2008, 11:20 AM
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Phillie, you make stuff up!!!!!

No one likes to hear himself talk or write more than you!

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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post #610 of 619 Old 09-21-2008, 11:23 AM
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I swear Philip stares in a mirror as he's typing.

Does anyone know of anything interesting or unique Lexicon has done since Logic7 came out, what, 15 years ago? Seriously?

John
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post #611 of 619 Old 09-21-2008, 11:39 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip Brandes View Post

...whenever I or anyone else pointed out factual information about differences in surround processor capabilities.

Here we go again... Heads up folks - there is a new definition of fact: whatever Philip Brandes says is fact.
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post #612 of 619 Old 09-21-2008, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

I swear Philip stares in a mirror as he's typing.

Does anyone know of anything interesting or unique Lexicon has done since Logic7 came out, what, 15 years ago? Seriously?

In all fairness, they were the first "high end" (if you can call them that) surround processor to come to bat with HDMI audio with LPCM processing.

And Lexicon is the only company with a technical writer who posts at each audio or home theater forum on threads regarding other companies surround processors to ensure nothing "incorrect" goes uncorrected.

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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post #613 of 619 Old 09-21-2008, 01:25 PM
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"Besides, Harman bought Fosgate, raided its technology and personnel, folded the company and gave all that to Lexicon."

Not even remotely. Lexcion and Fosgate/Citation were in competition with each other when HI owned both. Lexicon simply won. And their technology was their own, not based on anything Fosgate did.

Shawn
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post #614 of 619 Old 09-21-2008, 01:34 PM
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"Does anyone know of anything interesting or unique Lexicon has done since Logic7 came out, what, 15 years ago? Seriously?"

Bass management flexibility with 3 subwoofer outputs
Bass Enhance
Very flexible setup
Panorama
SPL dependent loudness
Room EQ
LIVE
revised L7 many times
Discrete L7
option of multichannel analog bypass or full processing
Etc...etc...etc.

Shawn
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post #615 of 619 Old 09-21-2008, 01:34 PM
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"No one likes to hear himself talk or write more than you!"

Said the guy with 14,229 posts......

Shawn
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post #616 of 619 Old 09-21-2008, 01:37 PM
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"than an increasingly dated 2-channel based surround technology."

Shows how much you know since the so called discrete L7 does things for multi-channel sources that nothing else on the market does.

Shawn
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post #617 of 619 Old 09-21-2008, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

InAnd Lexicon is the only company with a technical writer who posts at each audio or home theater forum on threads regarding other companies surround processors to ensure nothing "incorrect" goes uncorrected.

Once again you snidely suggest that I work for Lexicon, which you know to be untrue.

And by the way, I am not a technical writer either. Why don't you just quit while you're behind?
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post #618 of 619 Old 09-21-2008, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

"Does anyone know of anything interesting or unique Lexicon has done since Logic7 came out, what, 15 years ago? Seriously?"

Bass management flexibility with 3 subwoofer outputs
Bass Enhance
Very flexible setup
Panorama
SPL dependent loudness
Room EQ
LIVE
revised L7 many times
Discrete L7
option of multichannel analog bypass or full processing
Etc...etc...etc.

Shawn


Alimental said Lex hasn't done anything since Logic 7 15 years ago, not me!
That's his opinion.

But really it comes down to how good it sounds in your system. Lex doesn't cut the cake for me anymore. Not even for The Bland, who had one!!! But hey, I guess my Theta doesn't cut the cake for you. ENJOY your Lex. Lets not argue re which of those features are "proprietary" to Lex, what is the definition of "proprietary", or which sounds better (the one we own of course)!

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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post #619 of 619 Old 09-21-2008, 01:58 PM
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idea: challenge the information in the post...and never the poster

it works in this forum: just try it

please take the high road in every post
if you see a problematic post, please do not quote it or respond to it: report it to the mods to handle
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