Can UPS be used with Voltage Stabilizer and Isolation Transformer - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 44 Old 09-03-2008, 08:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Severe Power Outages and other irregularities from Mains made me swith to Power Conditioning.

Final Outcome:
Furman IT Reference 16Ei(Symmetrically Balanced Isolation Transformer) connected to the Furman SPR 16Ei(Stable Voltage Regulator).

Comparision some would like to Know:
Power Conditioning benefitted me Majorily. It's like I cann't do away with it now.

Something Unresolved:
Concerned about the PJ bulb due to power outages. After reading a lot APC SURT1000XLI (Double Conversion Online UPS) comes to mind.

Present Connection is made like this

MAINS-->SPR--->ITREF-->Front End HT Equipments

I am unable to figure out if the UPS could be connected after/into the Furman IT REF-16Ei.

Projected Connection:

MAINS-->SPR--->ITREF-->
UPS-->HT Equipments

Already Tried Connection:

MAINS-->UPS-->SPR-->ITREF-->Front End HT Equipments

Result: UPS Burnt Out on very first power outage.

Experts/Experienced Users please advise.
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post #2 of 44 Old 09-03-2008, 09:34 AM
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There are some odd marine 120v UPS's that can work with balanced power in a home without problems. Call Rick at Equitech for name and model.
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post #3 of 44 Old 09-03-2008, 11:08 AM
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In what god forsaken place do you live where such problems exist?

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post #4 of 44 Old 09-03-2008, 05:33 PM
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You can use any combination of these together. UPS come in many different styles and configurations. "Online" UPS continually convert input voltage to output, so in a sense, they have the three functions that you want rolled into one piece of equipment. Many brand names to select from such as: APC, Tripp-Lite, MGE (part of APC), Powerware (Eaton) ...
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post #5 of 44 Old 09-03-2008, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastl View Post

You can use any combination of these together. UPS come in many different styles and configurations. "Online" UPS continually convert input voltage to output, so in a sense, they have the three functions that you want rolled into one piece of equipment. Many brand names to select from such as: APC, Tripp-Lite, MGE (part of APC), Powerware (Eaton) ...


But you can have problems plugging a UPS into a balanced power system. A lot of these UPS systems have "proper wiring" detectors on the input side. They expect to see say no more than 5 volts between ground and neutral. When they see a whopping 60 volts they won't power up.

I have a few high end online Lieberts units at work. We cut the standard plugs off to replace them with twistlocks. One of the guys got the hot and neutral reversed and the unit would not come up. The error code indicated a "service wiring error".

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post #6 of 44 Old 09-03-2008, 06:21 PM
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Similar problem can occur on the output of balanced power systems. I've seen equipment with "universal" input (85-264V) power supplies not work when you plug them into a balanced power system delivering 60-0-60V. BTW, Leibert make nice equipment. The big magnapulse units are what keeps many a datacenter up and running.
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post #7 of 44 Old 09-03-2008, 06:24 PM
 
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Can you not put the UPS immediately after the mains and before the voltage regulator and balanced power unit?
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post #8 of 44 Old 09-03-2008, 07:24 PM
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I actually put the voltage regulation first, then the UPS. Although my "smart" UPS includes tap-changer type of voltage regulation, I don't like the EMI that is generated when the UPS starts boosting voltage. With the UPS on the output of the VR, it never switches taps (no EMI). Also, the VR keeps the line voltage going into the UPS high enough that it doesn't trip when the air conditioning kicks in. Don't use a balancing unit.
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post #9 of 44 Old 09-06-2008, 10:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faberryman View Post

Can you not put the UPS immediately after the mains and before the voltage regulator and balanced power unit?

It will burn your UPS as it did for Mine.
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post #10 of 44 Old 09-06-2008, 10:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Update # 1

Reply from Furman:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would not recommend that approach.

I would just use the Online Double Conversion UPS and put it on a dedicated line.


Thank you,
Michael Anderson
Service and Sales Dept.
(707) 763-1010 ext.2377
mikea@furmansound.com

Furman Sound
1690 Corporate Cir.
Petaluma, CA. 94954
http://www.furmansound.com/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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post #11 of 44 Old 09-06-2008, 10:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Update # 2

Reply from Furman:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Those two AC power management devices are not designed to work together.
(i.e. IT-Ref and the UPS)

You can try an Furman Elite-10Ei before the UPS.

http://www.furmansound.com/product.p...&id=ELITE-10Ei



Best regards,
Michael Anderson
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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post #12 of 44 Old 09-06-2008, 10:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Update # 3

Waiting to make three comparisions to see the PQ:

1) IT-REF(Balanced Transformer)--->UPS-->PJ

2) IT-REF(Balanced Transformer)--->PJ

3) SPR-->UPS-->PJ

Will Post.

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post #13 of 44 Old 09-06-2008, 01:44 PM
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How do you know that the person you spoke to at Furman knows what he is talking about? My observations are that many of the people involved with sales and marketing of consumer power conditioning products are disingenuous to say the least (that's the nicest thing I can say). When I see slang terminology like "burn" your UPS, my BS alarm goes off. What exactly are you trying to do?
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post #14 of 44 Old 09-06-2008, 02:04 PM
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Robit

I used Power conditioning both in my business and in my music and video systems. I can not comment on your system but I would advice you to look in double conversion UPS. They generate their own AC. Power is the cleanest one can have ( good units routinely produce less than 3% distortion at full load), Voltage regulation is tight with many units regulating it at less than 2%. There is no switching, AC power is stable and do not fluctuate AT ALL.
They are big, heavy, noisy and inefficient: usually less than 85%, which means that 15% is lost in heat. They may require professional installation but there is no better source of AC power for an Audio or Video system... APC, Best Power, Liebert , Emerson are the most common brands...

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post #15 of 44 Old 09-06-2008, 05:32 PM
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Frantz

I already recommended that he look for an "online" UPS. That's the industry term for your double conversion UPS. Best Power is no more. They were apparently bought out by Eaton and now sell the product line under the Powerware brand name (which I also recommend).

Incidentally, my APC Smart UPS is currently running from an outlet on my Furman AR-15 Series II line voltage regulator. Neither the Furman or APC have gotten "burned", whatever that is supposed to mean. Same APC UPS had been run directly off a wall socket for over three years without getting "burned" there either. Certainly has seen it's share of line voltage dips, sags, outages and lightning hits, too.
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post #16 of 44 Old 09-07-2008, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastl View Post

How do you know that the person you spoke to at Furman knows what he is talking about? My observations are that many of the people involved with sales and marketing of consumer power conditioning products are disingenuous to say the least (that's the nicest thing I can say). When I see slang terminology like "burn" your UPS, my BS alarm goes off. What exactly are you trying to do?

Get the best PQ from my PJ and Protect it from power faults.
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post #17 of 44 Old 09-07-2008, 09:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastl View Post

Frantz

........ Incidentally, my APC Smart UPS is currently running from an outlet on my Furman AR-15 Series II line voltage regulator. Neither the Furman or APC have gotten "burned", whatever that is supposed to mean. Same APC UPS had been run directly off a wall socket for over three years without getting "burned" there either. Certainly has seen it's share of line voltage dips, sags, outages and lightning hits, too.

Please read my Initial Post properly it says:

"Already Tried Connection:

MAINS-->UPS-->SPR-->ITREF-->Front End HT Equipments

Result: UPS Burnt Out on very first power outage."

Here the UPS was feeding power supply to the Furman and not the other way round like yours. Well this mistake was my lack of knowledge.
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post #18 of 44 Old 09-07-2008, 09:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Update # 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by rohit_bh View Post

Update # 3

Waiting to make three comparisions to see the PQ:

1) IT-REF(Balanced Transformer)--->UPS-->PJ

2) IT-REF(Balanced Transformer)--->PJ

3) SPR-->UPS-->PJ

Bought the APC Online UPS (Double Conversion Topology) Model:SURT1000XLI and connected it to the Furman IT-REF and made comparision 1 & 2, the PQ is identical. However with the UPS in line the saturation of the PQ needs to be adjusted downwards.
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post #19 of 44 Old 09-07-2008, 09:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrantzM View Post

Robit

....They are big, heavy, noisy and inefficient: usually less than 85%, which means that 15% is lost in heat. They may require professional installation but there is no better source of AC power for an Audio or Video system... APC, Best Power, Liebert , Emerson are the most common brands...

True but I found the Brand New APC UPS hardly audible and the sound was absorbed once I had my Split AC switched on. Will locate it outside the HT if it gets noisy.
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post #20 of 44 Old 09-07-2008, 01:08 PM
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Power conditioning is primarily for protection - not for improving picture quality. I've had several different conditioners in my system and never heard any difference in audio quality or saw any difference in video quality. The voltage regulation used in premium/professional quality audio and video equipment does everything necessary to condition line voltage variations to render them invisible/inaudible. The only exception would be unusually large voltage dips that would cause the equipment to drop out of regulation.

Power conditioning falls into the "peripheral" component category along with cables and all the other tweakophile stuff. The marketing strategy is to sell this equipment as improving AV quality, but this is largely a crock. If you think that you need power conditioning to improve your AV quality, then you should seriously consider trying other AV components. OTOH, installing power conditioning for protection purposes is a wise thing to do. Better to have the conditioning equipment absorb a big surge than your expensive AV equipment.
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post #21 of 44 Old 09-07-2008, 01:43 PM - Thread Starter
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fastl,

the IT-REF (Symmetrical balanced power ) has infact improved the PQ and audio. It all depends on the quality of power you get and the environment. If you have a clean power you don't need any power conditioning. The SPR took the damage and protected my equip.
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post #22 of 44 Old 09-08-2008, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastl View Post

Power conditioning is primarily for protection - not for improving picture quality. I've had several different conditioners in my system and never heard any difference in audio quality or saw any difference in video quality. The voltage regulation used in premium/professional quality audio and video equipment does everything necessary to condition line voltage variations to render them invisible/inaudible. The only exception would be unusually large voltage dips that would cause the equipment to drop out of regulation.

Power conditioning falls into the "peripheral" component category along with cables and all the other tweakophile stuff. The marketing strategy is to sell this equipment as improving AV quality, but this is largely a crock. If you think that you need power conditioning to improve your AV quality, then you should seriously consider trying other AV components. OTOH, installing power conditioning for protection purposes is a wise thing to do. Better to have the conditioning equipment absorb a big surge than your expensive AV equipment.

I agree except for the fact that balanced AC power does help reduce ground loops. It's not a cure all for bad grounding schemes but does get rid of a lot of low leve hum in complex systems. Of course a Bluray to receiver to monitor all plugged into the same circuit isn't going to benefit much from balanced power.

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post #23 of 44 Old 09-08-2008, 12:20 PM
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Let the flames begin...

"Power Conditioning" CAN improve AV quality IF you have power issues in your room.

If there is a neutral to ground voltage (quite common actually) on the line other wise know as "common mode noise" (anything over 1 volt is a potential problem) it can affect your system especially digital components (transports, DACs etc). All this junk works off a 1 - 5 volts DC signal to ground so a 1 volt+ AC hit can cause some trouble.

"Power Stablizing" can also improve your system. How? Easy it puts less demand on the power supply and filtering section of your components (often the most "under engineered") making them work less if you can feed a consistant 120 volts to the power supply.

Me, I'm old fashioned. I like the transformer based products like Equitech and Torus. They do not recreate, regenerate etc they just filter. This comes from my PC and phone background. BTW thesed devices are widely used in studios as well. However the big thing for me is they are also probably used on MRI and X-Ray machines in your local hospital!

OK I'm braced with my K Y so let me have it.

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post #24 of 44 Old 09-08-2008, 05:55 PM
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Pardon my naivete but was is your "K Y"?

Anyway, I'm not interested in engaging in any pissing contests over the subject of power conditioning. If you notice I said "largely a crock", which should not be misconstrued to mean "always a crock". There are always exceptions to every rule. However, for the mainstream user, the claims being advertised for making improvements in digitally transmitted sound/video signals are obviously bunk. I think you know what I am referring to.

Balanced power systems don't eliminate ground loops, because the grounded center-tap of the isolation transformer secondary provides a return path for anything grounded . What they do is to reduce common-mode leakage current flow into equipment at powerline frequencies. Historically, balanced power systems originated in recording studios, where they were claimed to reduce hum induction in low level microphone lines. In the home environment, most of the improvement realized by these balanced power products results not from the balancing but from the common-mode noise reduction provided by the transformer isolation and electrosatic shielding.
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post #25 of 44 Old 09-08-2008, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastl View Post

Pardon my naivete but was is your "K Y"?

Anyway, I'm not interested in engaging in any pissing contests over the subject of power conditioning. If you notice I said "largely a crock", which should not be misconstrued to mean "always a crock". There are always exceptions to every rule. However, for the mainstream user, the claims being advertised for making improvements in digitally transmitted sound/video signals are obviously bunk. I think you know what I am referring to.

Balanced power systems don't eliminate ground loops, because the grounded center-tap of the isolation transformer secondary provides a return path for anything grounded . What they do is to reduce common-mode leakage current flow into equipment at powerline frequencies. Historically, balanced power systems originated in recording studios, where they were claimed to reduce hum induction in low level microphone lines. In the home environment, most of the improvement realized by these balanced power products results not from the balancing but from the common-mode noise reduction provided by the transformer isolation and electrosatic shielding.


Word...

K Y = KY jelly lube.

I shant pee on this matter no more!

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post #26 of 44 Old 09-09-2008, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastl View Post

Pardon my naivete but was is your "K Y"?


Balanced power systems don't eliminate ground loops, because the grounded center-tap of the isolation transformer secondary provides a return path for anything grounded . What they do is to reduce common-mode leakage current flow into equipment at powerline frequencies. Historically, balanced power systems originated in recording studios, where they were claimed to reduce hum induction in low level microphone lines. In the home environment, most of the improvement realized by these balanced power products results not from the balancing but from the common-mode noise reduction provided by the transformer isolation and electrosatic shielding.

Ok I see where you are going. It does break the neutral to ground bond on the secondary side and can in that case help with the old CATV bond problem. I did for me. But I agree the commen mode rejection is the major benefit.

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post #27 of 44 Old 09-10-2008, 07:53 PM
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... I shant pee on this matter no more!

I knew you were a gentleman and a scholar. I'm surprised that the usual cast of kibitzers hasn't showed up. I'm not against power conditioning - I'm against false advertising.
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post #28 of 44 Old 10-03-2008, 11:46 AM
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FYI....just posted a Liebert GXT2 Online Double Conversion (True Sine Wave) unit for sale earlier today.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/vbcla...?do=ad&id=7180

No joke...the whole city lost power two weeks ago becuase of the IKE related wind storms. We sat in the theater and watched football that sunday and it never even flickered once
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post #29 of 44 Old 10-03-2008, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barhoram View Post

FYI....just posted a Liebert GXT2 Online Double Conversion (True Sine Wave) unit for sale earlier today.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/vbcla...?do=ad&id=7180

No joke...the whole city lost power two weeks ago becuase of the IKE related wind storms. We sat in the theater and watched football that sunday and it never even flickered once


Does it use a fan?

I assume (being in this thread) that you can plug it into balanced power?

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post #30 of 44 Old 10-03-2008, 02:45 PM
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Yea. It does have a fan since its True Online/Double Conversion.
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