Your "World's Best Audio System" - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 1215 Old 10-20-2008, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rydenfan View Post

OB, you need to have this showdown! I really cannot believe you think you would make OB's system sound ridiculous, now that is ridiculous

Depends on how you define ridiculous. If it means 5 times the cost and not as good, well, that would be my point. Even if you have the best analog speaker in the world, it still will benefit dramatically from DEQX. I don't believe there's a speaker made that it can't make sound like costs 10 times as much as it does. Or, in the case of $50K and up speakers, finally make them sound like you'd expect for that much money.

Again, if it is just a focal point to show interesting expensive gear, that's one thing. If the focus is obtaining objectively the best sound possible, I don't see how you do that without DEQX as the main component in the system.

John
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post #62 of 1215 Old 10-20-2008, 12:26 PM
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Anyone that still believe that price is any measurement how transparent and good a set-up is, are not really looking for high fidelity, just expensive toys to show around. I do not understand why anyone would have a tube amp in "world's best audio system" if we are talking about a high fidelity system. Maybe if one are talking about "good looking system" or "see how expensive my toys are" system.

Sound and video is not magic, it is pure physics. Physics that can be magical
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post #63 of 1215 Old 10-20-2008, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Depends on how you define ridiculous. If it means 5 times the cost and not as good, well, that would be my point. Even if you have the best analog speaker in the world, it still will benefit dramatically from DEQX. I don't believe there's a speaker made that it can't make sound like costs 10 times as much as it does. Or, in the case of $50K and up speakers, finally make them sound like you'd expect for that much money.

Again, if it is just a focal point to show interesting expensive gear, that's one thing. If the focus is obtaining objectively the best sound possible, I don't see how you do that without DEQX as the main component in the system.

I think you are in the business of selling systems on the basis that they outperform much more expensive systems, relying on the fact that your typical customers operate on the basis of wishful thinking and will never hear said expensive systems for themselves.
Ob did one of these challenges a couple of years ago with BAAS with the electronically equalized small speaker system. The small speaker system sounded excellent for what it was, but didn't remotely approach the Lamm/Alexandria system in the same room in overall performance. Not one listener from BAAS believed there was any real challenge between the two, and the small system did sound very good.
Guys with these expensive systems are like the gunslingers in the Old West, they wind up having to defend themselves against every punk with a pistol.
It is patently absurd that digital electronic equalization, whatever its capabilities, can be made to do what you claim.
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post #64 of 1215 Old 10-20-2008, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

HDP-3, it is the new high-end version with upgraded power supply and analog output section, though much of that was put in the new 2.6.

At some point, I'm hoping the press will appreciate high technology as a way of getting beyond current limitations. The analog crossover is a glass ceiling. DEQX is a gigantic hammer.

The reason why Revels are the ideal cost no object DEQX candidate is because of their low diffraction, minimalist baffle, rigid cabinetry and most importantly, their perfectly proportioned rigid, pistonic drivers designed for use with steep crossovers.

That looks really cool! I was always under the "less is more" field of thought but you never know till you try. The trouble I see with a product like this is, it may be very confusing or hard to use for the average customer. But I really have no idea how hard it is to use or even how it works so....

How much is a system like this DEQX? I did not see any pricing on the web site.
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post #65 of 1215 Old 10-20-2008, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NIN74 View Post

Anyone that still believe that price is any measurement how transparent and good a set-up is, are not really looking for high fidelity, just expensive toys to show around. I do not understand why anyone would have a tube amp in "world's best audio system" if we are talking about a high fidelity system. Maybe if one are talking about "good looking system" or "see how expensive my toys are" system.


It has been my experience that tube amps sound better than most SS amps, at least in the cases where I have had the pleasure to compare them side by side. But I understand many feel differently or hear differently. I have come to the conclusion that neither is the right way or wrong way, they all lead to the same road of audio happiness. Would you like to take the highway or the scenic rout? Depends on who you ask.
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post #66 of 1215 Old 10-20-2008, 02:36 PM
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My candidate for top:

Speaker: Rich Murray rebuilt Apogee Full Range OR Graz Definitive ribbon speaker system (http://www.apogeeacoustics.com/specialprojects.html) OR Apogee Grand. Gotham subs if desired.

Crossover: Accuphase F 25v active crossover three or four way

Amplifiers: Wavac SH 833's on Bass Panel, Wavac HE 805 on midrange ribbon (or Lamm Ml3), Wavac EC 300b on tweeters.

Turntable: Continuum Caliburn with Cobra arm and Clearaudio Goldfinger cartridge OR Da Vinci turntable and arm with Clearaudio Goldfinger.

Phono Stage: Wavac LCR phono stage OR Audio Tekne phono stage OR Allnic H-3000 phono stage Or Da Vinci LCR phono stage.

Preamp: Wavelength custom preamp based on vintage Telefunken RE134 tube, silver output transformers

Digital system: anything decent, won't get much playing time

Surround system based on smaller Apogee speakers and 300b tube amps.

Digital equalization desirable for subwoofers and surrounds but not mains with vinyl or analog, digital equalization permissible throughout with digital sources.
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post #67 of 1215 Old 10-20-2008, 03:10 PM - Thread Starter
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John, I really feel like you've hijacked this thread, and I'm not sure why. If you would take the time to read my work over the last, say, ten years, you'd see that you're not really on the mark.

Take just this year, for instance, when I wrote about the Anthem Room Correction system in "TWBAS." Do you think it made me look "cool" to all of the high-end guys that I would put a $7k surround processor in such a system? As for good design, WE are the guys that actually do the NRC measurements that so many people like to link to. Do you not think I don't value loudspeakers with proper engineering: wide, even off-axis dispersion, low distortion and power compression, moderate loads, etc. Do you think these concepts are foreign to me?

Why don't you actually look at some of things I've written about. They're easy to find on our websites. I see that you like to copy in measurements. Well how does this look to you: http://www.ultraaudio.com/twbas/twbas_20080715.htm

My point here is not to defend myself. I do pretty well with my position in the industry. The point is that the super high end need not be at odds with some of the real-world designs you promote. Lighten up, please do some research on me if you choose to attack me, and realize that this is all really just about a HOBBY we all love.

Jeffrey W. Fritz
Editor-in-Chief
SoundStage! Network
www.soundstagenetwork.com
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post #68 of 1215 Old 10-20-2008, 03:23 PM
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Jeff, I'm not trying to attack you at all, just defending the idea of an active digital system in general as a good recommendation. There's a history here of many being being steeped in the conventional and not interested in anything but that. Personally, I think a lot of what passes for 'high-end' is really a 'prestige' product. That's why it's important to know what you're asking. Throwing in a bunch of unobtainium is always fun, but also somewhat trite. If the concept of going beyond the normal, conventional SOTA is of interest, you have my recommendation and it's a good one and looks even like the kind of thing you'd enjoy doing. Sorry if you felt that was attacking you, I honestly wasn't sure what your priorities were. You said the conventional high-end system you'd tried was something of a disappointment, hence my recommendation for something beyond this. If you tried the NHT Xd system, you know what it does for a $2700 worth of sub/satellite ($3300 in electronics) and the HDP-3 is a big upgrade in performance. Pitting a $25K-$50K DEQX/Revel (or one of a few other really well engineered speakers) system up against a $200K+ system would be both fun and very informative and might actually cause a bit of paradigm shift. Since I clearly got your attention, I'll bow out so others can throw in more conventional recommendations.

John
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post #69 of 1215 Old 10-20-2008, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post


The reason why Revels are the ideal cost no object DEQX candidate is because of their low diffraction, minimalist baffle, rigid cabinetry and most importantly, their perfectly proportioned rigid, pistonic drivers designed for use with steep crossovers.

Actually, if you look at all the current measurements and reviews you would see that the new Kef Reference line has lower diffraction, less distortion, and a far more rigid cabinet than the Ultima2's. Oh, and the Uni-Q driver is pretty well engineered as well. But I dont think you are a dealer for them, so they probably dont count...
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post #70 of 1215 Old 10-20-2008, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by rydenfan View Post

Actually, if you look at all the current measurements and reviews you would see that the new Kef Reference line has lower diffraction, less distortion, and a far more rigid cabinet than the Ultima2's. Oh, and the Uni-Q driver is pretty well engineered as well. But I dont think you are a dealer for them, so they probably dont count...

The Revels were just a suggestion, any good well proportioned speaker will work, but the Revels are a particularly good pick because of many factors, not just one or two. I've found that most poly/paper/etc drivers don't have the narrower band resolution that DEQX can help you take full advantage of. If you want to discuss it off line, PM me, I'll explain further.

John
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post #71 of 1215 Old 10-20-2008, 03:51 PM
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Why not try some of the really high quality brands f electronics that have been mentioned and re-create the original HQD System for the 21st Century for speakers. For those not around when that speaker was in the spotlight, it consisted of either and 18 inch or 24 Hartley (H) sub in a custom ginormous enclosure; Quad (Q) speakers and Decca (D) Ribbon Tweeters. Gotham subs certainly would measure and perform better than the big Hartley sub of the HQD system, there could be any number of candidates for the midrange portion (newer version of the Quads, the Big Maggies) and I'm not sure what one would use to replace the Decca tweeter. The biggest problem would be to find (build?) the appropriate crossover so that this system could sound it's best.

Could be a fun project, the cost would probably be under $50K, and the performance could be top notch.

Just a thought !!
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post #72 of 1215 Old 10-20-2008, 04:03 PM
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I have to say, there are still a few passive speakers I'd like to see reviewed, such as the new Vivid Audio top end speakers, some of the exotic TAD models, plus there's a German brand that looked pretty cool and expensive, but I can't remember the name.

John
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post #73 of 1215 Old 10-20-2008, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJTEN View Post

It has been my experience that tube amps sound better than most SS amps, at least in the cases where I have had the pleasure to compare them side by side. But I understand many feel differently or hear differently. I have come to the conclusion that neither is the right way or wrong way, they all lead to the same road of audio happiness. Would you like to take the highway or the scenic rout? Depends on who you ask.


Something that are changing the sound can, subjectivly sound better? Yes, but is it more high fidelity? No, not according to me. And then you will have sameness, that make all the records sound a little more alike, something that can be tiresome for some.

Sound and video is not magic, it is pure physics. Physics that can be magical
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post #74 of 1215 Old 10-20-2008, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by NIN74 View Post

Something that are changing the sound can, subjectivly sound better? Yes, but is it more high fidelity? No, not according to me. And then you will have sameness, that make all the records sound a little more alike, something that can be tiresome for some.


And that's fair, like I say, whatever gets you to that road, there is no wrong way. Unless you own Bose & think they are great
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post #75 of 1215 Old 10-20-2008, 05:15 PM
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Ahhhh, my favorite time of the year is coming! The time of the year when I get free Electrical Shock Therapy from touching my equipment. I love wintertime...

"It is worse still to be ignorant of your ignorance."
-- Saint Jerome (374 AD - 419 AD)

My Home Theatre
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post #76 of 1215 Old 10-20-2008, 06:09 PM
 
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Too bad that this thread has predictably gone down hill. I have known Jeff Fritz for the past 5 years and he is truly a gentleman. His intent on starting this thread was to solicit opinions...nothing more.

What a great review he would get to write. Take the worlds best 2 channel components and put them in an optimized room and let the chips fall where they may. I know that I for one would beg for an audition in that room as would many others here. For Jeff to put this thread up on the Ultra High End Forum here at AVS speaks volumes for where he goes to solicit knowledgeable input on this topic. The way in which the thread has been hijacked by the usual suspects also speaks volumes as to the inherent issues that this particular forum has. I laud Jeff for his desires to flesh out some real equipment but if this thread continues at the pace it is going the moderator will be locking it pretty soon.
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post #77 of 1215 Old 10-20-2008, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oneobgyn View Post

Too bad that this thread has predictably gone down hill. I have known Jeff Fritz for the past 5 years and he is truly a gentleman. His intent on starting this thread was to solicit opinions...nothing more.

What a great review he would get to write. Take the worlds best 2 channel components and put them in an optimized room and let the chips fall where they may. I know that I for one would beg for an audition in that room as would many others here. For Jeff to put this thread up on the Ultra High End Forum here at AVS speaks volumes for where he goes to solicit knowledgeable input on this topic. The way in which the thread has been hijacked by the usual suspects also speaks volumes as to the inherent issues that this particular forum has. I laud Jeff for his desires to flesh out some real equipment but if this thread continues at the pace it is going the moderator will be locking it pretty soon.

OB, I agree 100%.

The unfortunate, but predictable, contraindication of asking for opinion is that every dicktree with an agenda, or sales pitch, feels the need to flap their, ill informed, lip. Despite assurances of bowing out and OP appeals, the rampant douchemongery continues.

You politely called them "usual suspects" i prefer to think of them as "unusual fvcktards". If its not 2nd rate salesmen, its European pole smokers.

--------------------------------------------
"Wow, do you think you are Adonis"...... "Baby, I'm not A-donis, I'm THE-donis"
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post #78 of 1215 Old 10-20-2008, 06:41 PM
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Nice contribution guys, way to show everyone the light.

I can't speak for others, but my lip is quite informed. And any thread with the words 'world's best' in it is doomed from the start, in part by the self-righteous. You can only claim innocence or cast aspersions if your own posts are pure and follow the intent of the OP.

I for one am glad Jeff's asking and just hope he includes some future think technology as well. I regularly point to Soundstage measurements because they add a much needed dose of truth to widely varied and subjective opinion.

John
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post #79 of 1215 Old 10-20-2008, 06:46 PM
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Speaking of Soundstage, how long until we see some NRC measurements of the Salon2?!

"It is worse still to be ignorant of your ignorance."
-- Saint Jerome (374 AD - 419 AD)

My Home Theatre
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post #80 of 1215 Old 10-20-2008, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

I can't speak for others, but my lip is quite informed.

Judging by how much you rant about NAD, it would seem to be safe to assume that a huge number of nads have brushed those lips.

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post #81 of 1215 Old 10-20-2008, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

Judging by how much you rant about NAD, it would seem to be safe to assume that a huge number of nads have brushed those lips.

Alimental has a NAD Deluxe Multichannelscopic Toilet with 7.1 channel sonics (as he lets out the trash) and Buttkickers!!!!

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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post #82 of 1215 Old 10-20-2008, 06:59 PM
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Ah CM, back in fine form. How were the BB5s? Start a thread please...

Design by Rives...dollars by The Bogg

Click for my build thread
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post #83 of 1215 Old 10-20-2008, 07:16 PM
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Jeff, please pardon the interruption.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post

Ah CM, back in fine form.

I don't always agree w/ everything CM posts (think RS1), but CM is funny and eloquent as heck! For example,
Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

The unfortunate, but predictable, contraindication of asking for opinion is that every dicktree...

Now I know there is that line about money growing in trees, but ... CM... the imagery.
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post #84 of 1215 Old 10-20-2008, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

Alimental has a NAD Deluxe Multichannelscopic Toilet with 7.1 channel sonics (as he lets out the trash) and Buttkickers!!!!

It's AWESOME!!!!! My NADs have never been cleaner

John
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post #85 of 1215 Old 10-20-2008, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oneobgyn View Post

For those of us who believe that the Ultra High end is more than an NAD set up Alimentall owes it to himself to hear a good one. I would invite you over John but you're not quite ready for prime time

I'd be glad to go. I haven't heard a high-end system yet that I couldn't critique.

John
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post #86 of 1215 Old 10-20-2008, 11:09 PM
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Less talk, more systems please
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post #87 of 1215 Old 10-20-2008, 11:23 PM
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You said sky's the limit right

Speakers
Final Audio Design Ibuka 204 - 1st choice
Kharma Grand Exquisite or Wilson X2 II - 2nd choice
GIP Laboratory - 3rd choice

Amplifiers
Western Electric 59B - 1st choice
Jadis JA800 - 2nd choice

Digital front end
Burmester's 069 Reference Line CD Player

Cables
Sunny Supreme Speaker Cable


The Ibuka 204's little brother the Opus 204 is only 880 pounds each or over 1.6 tons for the little brother. This big boy needs a platoon of obgyns' to help you lift. 4 Jadis monoblocks and one WE59B to drive this bugger. hah!


Kharma Grand Exquisite


Wilson X2 series2?


GIP Laboratory -Wow! All western electric field magnet type speaker


Western Electric 59B


Jadis JA800


Burmester's 069 Reference Line CD Player
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post #88 of 1215 Old 10-20-2008, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by FrantzM View Post

CINERAMAX

Out of curiosity why this insistence on playing over 120 dB? Isn't that dangerous territory? At any frequency? I do understand the security blanket offered by a system with unlimited dynamic range, yet 125 dB seems to be dangerous in a Home Theater environment... Your thoughts?

The size of the room keeps creeping up and the speakers are going behind a screen and are extreme far field. To boot some Blue Ray mixes can blow Dyn c4 woofers. I found that those movies had been coincidentally scored in the Hans zimmer remote control suite with the Quested HM415's. At this point I say Fvck it just use the HM415's. Of course I would either use ML analog amps or Boz digital with the Tact Audio Tcs Mk 3 surround processor (the only processor with an 8 channel aes ebu digital input for Movie Theater servers).
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post #89 of 1215 Old 10-20-2008, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik Rasmussen View Post

Less talk, more systems please

Ok Sir

1st choice
BD Design Oris Swing mk2 Yaaawzaaar! Sweet


2nd choice
Shindo Latour Field Coil Speakers - Finesse to the max


3rd choice
Tannoy Westminster Royal - Blow me up!
http://uk.cinenow.com/videos/806-tan...nd-munich-2007

Only one choice
Yamamoto A08s with Sweet Emission Labs 45 tubes or Rogers A/C 245 Globes. Ear bleeding with 115db Azura or Oris horn. Very solid performer.


How about an EMT981 or this Studer
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post #90 of 1215 Old 10-21-2008, 03:13 AM
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Jeff

I do like the thread. I am myself interested in a system that will satisfy me for the next 10 years. I do think that OB (and maybe others) have found such to his (their) liking, I am reasonably confident that the X-2, Gotham, LAMM, EMM Labs and Meitner could well be the cornerstone of his system for many years... I have somewhat found that kind of solace, to use the term loosely. I have found the Burmester Electronics (011 Preamp, 911 Amp, 970/980 DAC/Transport Combo) to be better or as good to my ears than anything I have heard. I have posted that I have found my speakers "good enough" but somewhat wanting in a few areas; yet I do not want to spend a hundred of thousands of dollars to subjectively find my next speakers only "slightly" better. The MG 20.1 will do that to you...

It is clear that there are more contenders out there than anyone can possibly review. While it is not possible to do a perfect job one can do reasonably good one. The problem is how to eliminate the real contenders from the "poseurs", i-e the products out there whose only merits for consideration would be their high (outrageous?) price. Maybe one should put a ceiling on price, that might well leave some incredible designs out but will force a look on real quality rather than claims of being the best or the most expensive.
I am an engineer and we are forced to design with cost and time constraints almost by definition. With infinite time and infinite budget we, engineers would have designed the best of anything you want to think of: Bridges, Coffee Maker, Cars, etc. The real world constraints of time ( implicit, you have to design it and make sure it is produced our during your customers lifetime) and cost are what make great products. There must be a ceiling to price IMHO.

I understand this is a difficult proposition: for example what should be the ceiling for the components? For the system in its entirety? Let us use an arbitrary number: What about $750K for the whole system, Room not included? Only gears and maybe services? , else we delve in loony considerations with products such as the Million dollars Wisdom speakers which from many reports have only disappointed their listeners, the $300,000 amplifiers in actively quad-amplified speakers or the $200,000 cable, which is what a whole set of Nordost Odin or Transparent Opus might cost. (On Cable I am SQUARELY and UNABASHEDLY in the OTHER camp) ...

Lowering the ceiling would also be quite helpful... How good a system can one have with 100K? 75K, 50K? As an aside $75K is the threshold for greatness IMHO.

Frantz
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Reply Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+)

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