Any word on Meridian HDMI solution or anything new with surround processors? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #181 of 627 Old 01-13-2009, 01:35 PM
Senior Member
 
Mr. 568's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 244
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Where is your expectation coming from? Have you ever been to a trade show like CES? No one at the show was demonstrating comparisons to alternatives. ...

Common sense firstly. It's not a real demo unless some kind of benchmark has been set for an alleged improved. For example, my expectation comes from how Pioneer has used trade shows to demonstrate that their Elite Panels have progressively gotten blacker over the years. They compared their older panels to their newer panels to demonstrate that the improvements they were claiming were in fact legitimate. They then sent photos out to the press allowing others to see for themselves. At the least I would expect that Meridian would demo what a Bluray sounds like with vs without the 621. How else do you demonstrate that you are selling an improvement in sound quality?

Quote:


Interesting comment about your G68, have you done detailed comparisons between the unit with and without any video switching inputs to validate your claim?

Hang on - you're deflecting the point like a good Hitchhiker. Meridian had no problem putting video and tuner circuits into the G68, and the G68 still sells that way. If it is so harmful, then why haven't they discontinued it? I would have thought that analog video and a tuner would be more of a concern than a digital video signal. I therefore think that their claim is questionable and more likely a justification for selling more boxes. What harm would a digital video signal do that a digital audio signal from other connect equipment wouldn't? I've got two hi-def players, two digital audio devices and two game consoles all feeding the G68. Aren't they all adequately isolated? Can anyone here elaborate on the harm that a digital video signal would do to the sound?

To address your deflection, at first I was totally sold on Meridian's claims about the transparency of the video circuits in the G68. Then one day I ran out of enough component cables and ran a device straight to my TV. Low and behold the picture quality difference was night and day! Then I began routing all video directly to the TV. I do not recall any kind of change in the audio quality by disconnecting the video feeds. The same can be said about the tuner antennas. My G68 puts out the same superlative sound with and without video and tuner signals running through it.

Quote:


What's laughable is that you apparently don't attend enough audio shows to know that demonstrations often sound terrible, so the fact that the M demo sounded good is at least a positive first step in evaluating this piece.

LOL - While I've never attended an audio show, I'd have to conclude that it would take a lot for any high end system to sound terrible. Perhaps you would like to have written that "demonstrations often do not show the full potential of the equipment"? The idea that a manufacturer would display their equipment in an environment where it sounds "terrible" is just comedy gold. All of which has nothing to do with the basic point that all Meridian had to do was have two Sony Blue Rays feeding a G68. One through the 621 and one through coax. Hey folks, come here to hear how much better your Meridian system can sound through the 621. We've matched levels for you, and all you need to do is sit down and press these two source buttons to compare them. How hard could that have been? Wouldn't this have been the honest, no smoke and mirros/BS thing to do????

Only a hitchhiker would take Sdurani's comment as being a positive first step in evaluating the 621 - As if the system could not have sounded equally as good under the handicapping conditions without it. Do really appreciate how good Meridian processors sound on their own? If you do, then you'd know how hard it would be to make a Meridian system sound "terrible". LOL
Mr. 568 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #182 of 627 Old 01-13-2009, 02:00 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kal Rubinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC + Connecticut
Posts: 28,497
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Liked: 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. 568 View Post

Common sense firstly. It's not a real demo unless some kind of benchmark has been set for an alleged improved.

Sure. However, your lack of experience allows you to have overly ambitious expectations. A typical demonstration is merely that, a demonstration, not a test and not a comparison. While there are rare exceptions, like the Kuro demo, they are few and far between. Besides, such comparison tests are rarely controlled.

Quote:


LOL - While I've never attended an audio show, I'd have to conclude that it would take a lot for any high end system to sound terrible.

Spoken like an admitted novice. After decades of attending audio shows, I have low expectations of being impressed, regardless of the price or other "high-end" qualifications. I do have expectations in some rooms but these are more often based on my past experience with the person who sets up the demo than with the equipment. Of course, there is a distribution. Most are in the OK/mediocre range and that tells me very little about the potential of the equipment. Some are excellent and that tells me that the equipment has the potential to sound good if given the proper setup. Some sound positively awful but it is hard to attribute that to the setup or equipment so it really tells me nothing at all.

Quote:


Do really appreciate how good Meridian processors sound on their own? If you do, then you'd know how hard it would be to make a Meridian system sound "terrible". LOL

It can be done but, when my HD621 is connected to my 861, you can be sure I will make all the available comparisons. Until then, I can only express continuing interest.

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

Kal Rubinson is offline  
post #183 of 627 Old 01-13-2009, 02:13 PM
 
faberryman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 546
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

THe folks who would want such a piece are a select few and certainly the smallest of niche groups.

Actually, the niche group is pretty large - all owners of Meridian 568.2MM, G61, G68 and 861 surround sound processors. The 861, for example, was introduced over ten years ago.
faberryman is offline  
post #184 of 627 Old 01-13-2009, 02:21 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 19,904
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1444 Post(s)
Liked: 1030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. 568 View Post

It's not a real demo unless some kind of benchmark has been set for an alleged improved.

Just because they're not doing the specific comparison you want doesn't mean "it's not a real demo". They did in fact demonstrate their product in action, unlike some other manufacturers that just had a mule/mock-up of their product displayed for press and buyers.
Quote:


The idea that a manufacturer would display their equipment in an environment where it sounds "terrible" is just comedy gold.

I sincerely hope you get to attend a trade show some day. That experience, more than any argument from me, will keep you from repeating comments like the above.

Sanjay

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #185 of 627 Old 01-13-2009, 03:22 PM
 
DougWinsor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,612
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


You just need to be more persistent. My guess is that there is no one on the forum that wants to do the legwork for you. We eagerly await your report.

I was wondering if anyone has connections that could get an answer sooner, I can send off an email but it might take a while for HDMI to get back.
DougWinsor is offline  
post #186 of 627 Old 01-13-2009, 03:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ca1ore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Stamford, CT
Posts: 1,798
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. 568 View Post

LOL - While I've never attended an audio show, I'd have to conclude that it would take a lot for any high end system to sound terrible. Perhaps you would like to have written that "demonstrations often do not show the full potential of the equipment"? The idea that a manufacturer would display their equipment in an environment where it sounds "terrible" is just comedy gold.

And you'd be wrong. Ignorance parading as insight - now THAT is comedy gold!

Certainty and conviction are a sure sign you don't know what you're talking about! The world is not black and white, rather shades of grey!
ca1ore is offline  
post #187 of 627 Old 01-13-2009, 05:39 PM
Senior Member
 
Mr. 568's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 244
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


Of course, there is a distribution. Most are in the OK/mediocre range and that tells me very little about the potential of the equipment. Some are excellent and that tells me that the equipment has the potential to sound good if given the proper setup. Some sound positively awful but it is hard to attribute that to the setup or equipment so it really tells me nothing at all.

But what does the above matter when you have already heard the full potential of a Meridian system? This is what makes this all ridiculous. Proposing that it is a step in the right direction that the Meridian demo sounded good is as revelatory as saying, "Las Vegas gets warm in the summer." We all know that Meridian systems sound terrific without a 621. Are we know going to propose, as is implied, that the 621 is responsible for the Meridian system overcoming the limitations of a tradeshow demo? Let's be rational here! If it sounded great then it is a result of it being Meridian in a decent environment. You don't have to visit trade shows for 10yrs to draw that conclusion.

If a Meridian system sounded terrible anywhere, it would have to be due to a fault, the set-up and/or environment. Three conditions that are pretty easy to determine IMO. So for someone to come out and say that a great sounding Meridian system is in some way indicative of the addition of a leading edge HDMI processor, without at least hearing what the sound is like without it, well... it really tells us nothing at all.

Quote:


Just because they're not doing the specific comparison you want doesn't mean "it's not a real demo". They did in fact demonstrate their product in action, unlike some other manufacturers that just had a mule/mock-up of their product displayed for press and buyers.

If you weren't able to assess what the product adds or subtracts to the formula, then all you heard was the total potential of the system in that environment. It was as useless as other manufacturers that just had a mule/mock-up of their product displayed for press and buyers, because there was no way to draw a conclusion about the performance of the unit. Even if the system sounded "terrible" you could not say that it was the fault of the 621, the speakers, the processor or the environment without benchmarking.
Mr. 568 is offline  
post #188 of 627 Old 01-13-2009, 07:28 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kal Rubinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC + Connecticut
Posts: 28,497
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Liked: 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. 568 View Post

But what does the above matter when you have already heard the full potential of a Meridian system? This is what makes this all ridiculous. Proposing that it is a step in the right direction that the Meridian demo sounded good is as revelatory as saying, "Las Vegas gets warm in the summer." We all know that Meridian systems sound terrific without a 621. Are we know going to propose, as is implied, that the 621 is responsible for the Meridian system overcoming the limitations of a tradeshow demo? Let's be rational here! If it sounded great then it is a result of it being Meridian in a decent environment. You don't have to visit trade shows for 10yrs to draw that conclusion.

If a Meridian system sounded terrible anywhere, it would have to be due to a fault, the set-up and/or environment. Three conditions that are pretty easy to determine IMO. So for someone to come out and say that a great sounding Meridian system is in some way indicative of the addition of a leading edge HDMI processor, without at least hearing what the sound is like without it, well... it really tells us nothing at all.



If you weren't able to assess what the product adds or subtracts to the formula, then all you heard was the total potential of the system in that environment. It was as useless as other manufacturers that just had a mule/mock-up of their product displayed for press and buyers, because there was no way to draw a conclusion about the performance of the unit. Even if the system sounded "terrible" you could not say that it was the fault of the 621, the speakers, the processor or the environment without benchmarking.

Wow. First, I do not recall anyone saying that the HD621 was primarily responsible for the quality of the sound. Second, I was not that impressed with the sound at the Meridian demos I heard and both used the HD621. (They did impress me last year.)

I think you have unreasonable expectations about these shows and you are drawing unreasonable conclusions from what is offered.

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

Kal Rubinson is offline  
post #189 of 627 Old 01-13-2009, 07:47 PM
 
faberryman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 546
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Wow. First, I do not recall anyone saying that the HD621 was primarily responsible for the quality of the sound. Second, I was not that impressed with the sound at the Meridian demos I heard and both used the HD621. (They did impress me last year.)

I think you have unreasonable expectations about these shows and you are drawing unreasonable conclusions from what is offered.

He doesn't seem to understand that Dolby Digital TrueHD and DTS-MA (both high resolution lossless codecs) are inherently higher quality than Dolby Digital and DTS (both standard resolution lossy codecs) and are going to sound better even in modest audio/video systems, hence his confusion. Most Meridian owners already know this and are excited to finally be able to get these inherently higher quality audio streams into their surround sound processors.
faberryman is offline  
post #190 of 627 Old 01-14-2009, 01:37 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 19,904
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1444 Post(s)
Liked: 1030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. 568 View Post

It was as useless as other manufacturers that just had a mule/mock-up of their product displayed for press and buyers...

You're resorting to extremes. I saw demonstrations that did sound bad and demonstrations that had HDMI handshaking issues. Seeing the 621 avoid these problems was certainly more useful than seeing a non-working mock-up.

Sanjay

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #191 of 627 Old 01-14-2009, 02:19 AM
AVS Special Member
 
John Kotches's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Troy, IL USA (St. Louis Area)
Posts: 7,687
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

THe folks who would want such a piece are a select few and certainly the smallest of niche groups... Meridian has those folks by the short hairs... but at least they have a solution.

I'd have to back check, but if the audio can be re-inserted back onto the video signal then it can be used a de-jitter /processing stage for any number of processors including your Halcro.

Contributing Editor & Surround Music Reviewer Widescreen Review
Opinions are mine, not the publication I write for.
John Kotches is offline  
post #192 of 627 Old 01-14-2009, 03:48 AM
Advanced Member
 
sierraalphahotel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 628
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kotches View Post

I'd have to back check, but if the audio can be re-inserted back onto the video signal then it can be used a de-jitter /processing stage for any number of processors including your Halcro.

So Meridian could potentially sell this as a stand alone piece, providing what you proposed is possible?

Sean
sierraalphahotel is offline  
post #193 of 627 Old 01-14-2009, 04:52 AM
Senior Member
 
Mr. 568's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 244
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


Wow. First, I do not recall anyone saying that the HD621 was primarily responsible for the quality of the sound. Second, I was not that impressed with the sound at the Meridian demos I heard and both used the HD621. (They did impress me last year.)

I think you have unreasonable expectations about these shows and you are drawing unreasonable conclusions from what is offered

See the last comment below. All I am doing is pointing out that any conclusions drawn about the 621's performance at CES are pretty worthless without a benchmark. For someone to propose that the Meridian demo sounding good at CES (where demos are frequently terrible) is some kind of sign that the 621 is a good product is absolutely absurd. This is what was proposed below in the final comment, when it is already established that Meridian systems do sound terrific. A Meridian system sounding terrific at CES is absolutely no indication about the 621's performance. The fact that you were not impressed this year only emphasizes the point. Without comparing the two, you aren't in any way able to attribute your negative experience to the 621, any more than Sdurani can attribute his positive experience to it.

Quote:


Got a listen to the 621 playing the opening bank heist from 'The Dark Knight' (the demo du jour at CES). For a 5.0 speaker system (no sub, LFE re-directed to speakers), it sounded terrific. I'd forgotten how good Meridian's room correction is; easily the tightest, most articulate bass of any demo I heard at CES.

Quote:


The accusations of posters like Mr.565 that Meridian owners only care about polishing their kit aside, good to hear that the demo actually sounded good.

Quote:


My point was simply that the 621 didn't display any obvious problems (i.e., sounded fine and worked without a hiccup). Nothing more complicated than that.

Quote:


What's laughable is that you apparently don't attend enough audio shows to know that demonstrations often sound terrible, so the fact that the M demo sounded good is at least a positive first step in evaluating this piece.

Mr. 568 is offline  
post #194 of 627 Old 01-14-2009, 05:03 AM
Senior Member
 
Mr. 568's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 244
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by faberryman View Post

He doesn't seem to understand that Dolby Digital TrueHD and DTS-MA (both high resolution lossless codecs) are inherently higher quality than Dolby Digital and DTS (both standard resolution lossy codecs) and are going to sound better even in modest audio/video systems, hence his confusion. Most Meridian owners already know this and are excited to finally be able to get these inherently higher quality audio streams into their surround sound processors.

Such a Hitchhiker. What I understand is that the software determines the usefulness of the technology, and that the software is limited. I understand that as with DD/DTS, not all recordings will show the potential of a Meridian system. I am excited about the opportunity to get the higher streams, but no more excited than when the mods were introduced to the market.
Mr. 568 is offline  
post #195 of 627 Old 01-14-2009, 05:06 AM
Senior Member
 
Mr. 568's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 244
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

You're resorting to extremes. I saw demonstrations that did sound bad and demonstrations that had HDMI handshaking issues. Seeing the 621 avoid these problems was certainly more useful than seeing a non-working mock-up.

Sanjay

So the 621 avoid the problem of bad sounding demonstrations? LOL. Further, if Meridian didn't switch between sources during their "demo" then you cannot even draw the minimum conclusion about handshaking.
Mr. 568 is offline  
post #196 of 627 Old 01-14-2009, 07:31 AM
 
faberryman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 546
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. 568 View Post

Such a Hitchhiker. What I understand is that the software determines the usefulness of the technology, and that the software is limited.

Limited software? Why don't you head on over to Blu-ray.com where you will find several thousand Blu-ray titles, the majority of which contain the new high resolution lossless audio streams. More are being introduced weekly.
faberryman is offline  
post #197 of 627 Old 01-14-2009, 07:37 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 19,904
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1444 Post(s)
Liked: 1030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. 568 View Post

So the 621 avoid the problem of bad sounding demonstrations? LOL. Further, if Meridian didn't switch between sources during their "demo" then you cannot even draw the minimum conclusion about handshaking.

If you had walked the show you would have heard demos with audio problems (like sound dropouts) and seen HDMI issues (like flashing "no signal" in the middle of the demo), neither of which plagued the Meridian set-up. A non-powered mock-up couldn't have demonstrated that.

As Kal said, you have unreasonable expectations from trade show demos. Meridian basically showed that the 621 works, without any obvious audio or HDMI problems. If you want anything more conclusive, then you'll have to look somewhere else.

Sanjay

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #198 of 627 Old 01-14-2009, 07:41 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 19,904
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1444 Post(s)
Liked: 1030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Wow. First, I do not recall anyone saying that the HD621 was primarily responsible for the quality of the sound.

Indeed. That's why I specifically mentioned the speaker system, room correction and Trifield as all contributing to the quality of the sound. Naturally, those parts of my post were ignored.

Sanjay

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #199 of 627 Old 01-14-2009, 07:54 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ddingle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Mahtomedi,Minnesota
Posts: 1,102
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 11
How about the NAD M15HD? A nice update on the existing product. Dynamic EQ and Volume. 1.3 compatible etc.
I might try one?
ddingle is offline  
post #200 of 627 Old 01-14-2009, 07:58 AM
 
faberryman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 546
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Wow. First, I do not recall anyone saying that the HD621 was primarily responsible for the quality of the sound.

Indeed. It is the high resolution lossless codecs that the HD621 brings to Meridian surround sound processors which primarily accounts for the higher quality of the sound. Depending on the quality of your system and your sensitivity to jitter, the incremental improvement brought about by Meridian's dejittering circuitry may or may not be audible. Call me crazy, but I would rather have less jitter than more jitter any day.
faberryman is offline  
post #201 of 627 Old 01-14-2009, 08:15 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ca1ore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Stamford, CT
Posts: 1,798
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. 568 View Post

Such a Hitchhiker.

Gee, no new material! I wonder if all the folks you accuse of being hitchhikers (and in classic Seinfeldian absurdity: 'not that there's anything wrong with that' ) are in fact so. Or is is, 'if you fail to accept my weak reasoning you must be X'. Tiresome.

Bottom line is to see how this piece sounds in a controlled environment and compare it to the various 3xSPDIF mods that are out there. Although you dismiss them as dead formats, I have over 200 SACDs and am keen to compare the performance of the HD621 with SACD over HDMI to my current modded player.

Certainty and conviction are a sure sign you don't know what you're talking about! The world is not black and white, rather shades of grey!
ca1ore is offline  
post #202 of 627 Old 01-14-2009, 10:21 AM
Senior Member
 
Mr. 568's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 244
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by faberryman View Post

Limited software? Why don't you head on over to Blu-ray.com where you will find several thousand Blu-ray titles, the majority of which contain the new high resolution lossless audio streams. More are being introduced weekly.


Having a high resolution audio path, or burning a soundtrack using a high resolution codec for Bluray does not mean that you will be taking advantage of the higher resolution technology. Does this really have to be spelled out, or does not the DD library of DVDs not already prove this point?

Quote:


As Kal said, you have unreasonable expectations from trade show demos. Meridian basically showed that the 621 works, without any obvious audio or HDMI problems. If you want anything more conclusive, then you'll have to look somewhere else.

Well done then. Let's all commend Meridian for charging $3,000 for a device that can pass a digital signal over MHR without dropping out.

Quote:


Indeed. That's why I specifically mentioned the speaker system, room correction and Trifield as all contributing to the quality of the sound. Naturally, those parts of my post were ignored.

Those parts of your post most certainly were not ignored. Repeatedly, have I made the case that Meridian systems without a 621 set the bar very high. Hence, the only way to assess its merits would be to compare it regular DD.

Quote:


Indeed. It is the high resolution lossless codecs that the HD621 brings to Meridian surround sound processors which primarily accounts for the higher quality of the sound. Depending on the quality of your system and your sensitivity to jitter, the incremental improvement brought about by Meridian's dejittering circuitry may or may not be audible. Call me crazy, but I would rather have less jitter than more jitter any day.

Which is precisely why I wrote in post 173 that any credible demo of the 621 would show how regular DD compared to DD True HD (see below).


Quote:


Bottom line is to see how this piece sounds in a controlled environment and compare it to the various 3xSPDIF mods that are out there. Although you dismiss them as dead formats, I have over 200 SACDs and am keen to compare the performance of the HD621 with SACD over HDMI to my current modded player.

Did I not make that point clear enough already when I replied:

Meridian needs to give us a reason to spend $$$$$ on a front end or switch, and the theory of improving the sound by separating the video from the audio is the "perfect reason". It's highly questionable when the G68 has an AM and FM tuner built in but let's run with it anyway... So at CES I would expect that Meridian would put on a demo that shows that the 621's extra processing is necessary and superior to the alternatives. Show us how bad the jitter is in HDMI before and after it hits the 621. Give us jitter numbers from a few players. Next show us a typical HDMI device, and tell us how bad the jitter is before it enters the 621 (keep in mind devices as "low-fi" as the AppleTV have low audio jitter!). Then show us by how much jitter is reduced at the back end of the 621. Does the reduced jitter level now make jitter reduction at the processor level redundant? Hmmm now it's really getting interesting. Let's hear it with and without upsampling turned on. Demo a movie in DD and then demo it via the 621 so that customers can hear the difference for themselves. And if legally possible, show that modded devices simply cannot compare to the 621.

Per the below comment, Meridian demonstrated nothing of substance other than that the Dark Knight bluray sounds fantastic when a digital signal is sent directly to the processor. As if we didn't know that already. Buyers who aren't scrutinizing Meridian's claims before plunking down their cash give Meridian every reason to charge $$$$ for the 621. It's excellent marketing.

What an event! Sdurani thinks the demo sounded terrific, so this is positive news for the 621. Kal was not that impressed with the Meridian system this year, although he was impressed last year. So what conclusions are you now going to draw about the 621? At least Kal has some kind of benchmark. The 621 must be to blame, right?
Mr. 568 is offline  
post #203 of 627 Old 01-14-2009, 10:33 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Alimentall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Home by the sea
Posts: 14,157
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Meridian, NAD and others have said that the audio stream over HDMI is more jitter prone and generally problematic than going over a coaxial via SPDIF. So, while NAD just recommends that you use coax for anything other than BD or DVD-A, Meridian went over the top (as usual) and created a system that mines the HDMI data, de-jitters it and then streams it in a way that they believe is going to perform better. If you like the idea, you go with it. If you don't, you buy something else. Why carry around the gigantic chip on your shoulder over it?

Besides, if high-end required scientific proof of superiority to bring to market, it would collapse in on itself instantaneously, for better or worse. So Meridian isn't doing anything different from the rest of high-end, though at least there's *some* theory behind it, whether or not it makes an audible difference.

John
Alimentall is offline  
post #204 of 627 Old 01-14-2009, 10:38 AM
Senior Member
 
Mr. 568's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 244
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


Gee, no new material! I wonder if all the folks you accuse of being hitchhikers (and in classic Seinfeldian absurdity: 'not that there's anything wrong with that' ) are in fact so. Or is is, 'if you fail to accept my weak reasoning you must be X'. Tiresome.

What I am specifically referring to is the type of person who does not question the claims that come out of BS's mouth. The kind of person who will buy a product purely because it is made by Meridian.

I must say it is quite refreshing to read the "Is Dejittering Cumulative?" thread. It's great to see people actually doing a "but wait a second," for a change. Taken from Unplugged today.

Quote:


I think it's worth reflecting that Meridian have never (to my knowledge) claimed that FIFO dejittering reduces jitter to zero. That is one of this forum's speculative "factoids" which has gathered it's own momentum and, as far as I can see, been adopted as gospel. I think it's genesis may be in the original subjective opinion that all digital sources via a G68 "sound the same", therefore FIFO is levelling the playing field (the assumption being that the G68 FIFO is reducing jitter to zero). All speculation on our part, nothing more.

Okay, he wrote "to my knowledge". He obviously never read any of Meridian's fact sheets...

Click http://www.meridian.co.uk/apps/861displays.pdf and do a search on "eliminate".

Click http://www.meridian-audio.com/media/...g68_ds_scr.pdf and do a search on "maintain total data integrity."

When Meridian was marketing those processors they most certainly did send a clear message that jitter would not be an issue anymore. Now we need this extra horsepower in the 621? Ever faithfully following the Meridian doctrine, eh!
Mr. 568 is offline  
post #205 of 627 Old 01-14-2009, 10:44 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Alimentall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Home by the sea
Posts: 14,157
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. 568 View Post

When Meridian was marketing those processors they most certainly did send a clear message that jitter would not be an issue anymore. Now we need this extra horsepower in the 621? Ever faithfully following the Meridian doctrine, eh!

That isn't the reason to buy the HD621, the reason is to add HDMI switching and HDMI to MHR audio conversion. The box is made by Meridian, therefore it will be expensive. Meridian likes to de-jitter at every step in the chain, so it's no surprise that it's on there. Redundant? Perhaps, but if you expect Meridian to build a product that doesn't have on board jitter reduction, well, I guess be prepared to keep on belly-aching.

John
Alimentall is offline  
post #206 of 627 Old 01-14-2009, 10:46 AM
Senior Member
 
Mr. 568's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 244
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


Besides, if high-end required scientific proof of superiority to bring to market, it would collapse in on itself instantaneously, for better or worse. So Meridian isn't doing anything different from the rest of high-end, though at least there's *some* theory behind it, whether or not it makes an audible difference.

The above quote is precisely why I carry a "chip on my shoulder". Why would a buyer even remotely be impressed with Meridian's published theories if this cannot be backed up by an audible difference?!?!? In the case of the 621, it's not merely a matter of Meridian doing something different from the rest of high-end. It is a matter of whether or not you are spending $3k on false promises and clever marketing. They are allowed to charge $3k for the 621 when demand for it is not tempered by enough people who simply ask themselves, "But how does it actually sound?"
Mr. 568 is offline  
post #207 of 627 Old 01-14-2009, 10:51 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Alimentall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Home by the sea
Posts: 14,157
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. 568 View Post

The above quote is precisely why I carry a "chip on my shoulder". Why would a buyer even remotely be impressed with Meridian's published theories if this cannot be backed up by an audible difference?!?!? In the case of the 621, it's not merely a matter of Meridian doing something different from the rest of high-end. It is a matter of whether or not you are spending $3k on false promises and clever marketing. They are allowed to charge $3k for the 621 when demand for it is not tempered by enough people who simply ask themselves, "But how does it actually sound?"

So A) don't buy it and B) get out of 'high-end' entirely. Why hold Meridian to a standard that no other high-end company wants to match. Just go buy a $100 NXG HDMI switch and be happy. How's it go - if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

John
Alimentall is offline  
post #208 of 627 Old 01-14-2009, 10:51 AM
Senior Member
 
Mr. 568's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 244
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

That isn't the reason to buy the HD621, the reason is to add HDMI switching and HDMI to MHR audio conversion. The box is made by Meridian, therefore it will be expensive. Meridian likes to de-jitter at every step in the chain, so it's no surprise that it's on there. Redundant? Perhaps, but if you expect Meridian to build a product that doesn't have on board jitter reduction, well, I guess be prepared to keep on belly-aching.

Which is already available at a fraction of the cost. Meridian's premium justification is the alleged benefits of video processing. As I stated many posts ago, I question whether or not Meridian's claims for de-jittering at multiple stages is actually necessary or purely marketing. If it is redundant, then it is purely marketing.
Mr. 568 is offline  
post #209 of 627 Old 01-14-2009, 11:01 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Alimentall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Home by the sea
Posts: 14,157
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. 568 View Post

Which is already available at a fraction of the cost. Meridian's premium justification is the alleged benefits of video processing. As I stated many posts ago, I question whether or not Meridian's claims for de-jittering at multiple stages is actually necessary or purely marketing. If it is redundant, then it is purely marketing.

No, Meridian's justification is 'we go to extreme lengths to preserve the integrity of the signal, whether or not it's absolutely necessary'. And that is the basis of 'high-end'. Over the top engineering. Going beyond what others do. Same basic reason people climb Everest. Because they can. And the people who think along those same lines buy it because they can't easily engineer it themselves. I have a customer who's about to go down this path. Why? BECAUSE HE WANTS TO. No more, no less. He just likes what Meridian does, why they do it and how it sounds. Period. It makes him happy. Would I do it? No, I'm not in his spending league for one thing and for another, I am a total value guy. But jeez, how long are you going to bitch about this?

Aside from this, Meridian believes that you should reduce jitter at every opportunity. Whether or not it's necessary. It's not marketing, it's doing what they believe in. Same reason my wife drags me to church every Sunday.

John
Alimentall is offline  
post #210 of 627 Old 01-14-2009, 11:04 AM
Senior Member
 
Mr. 568's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 244
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


So A) don't buy it and B) get out of 'high-end' entirely. Why hold Meridian to a standard that no other high-end company wants to match. Just go buy a $100 NXG HDMI switch and be happy. How's it go - if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Obtuse options to a significant industry problem!

Why hold Meridian to a standard that no other high-end company wants to match? Because that is the standard that Meridian was setting at time the that I have purchased all of my Meridian products. They weren't attempting to sell me something I didn't need as far as I could tell, and they could easily back up their claims of superiority. 10-15 yrs ago they were the leading [u]musical[/] option to Sony, Lexicon, Angstrom, Proceed, etc. This is why you purchased a Meridian - not because you get suckered into false promises, theoretical discussion papers and marketing hype.
Mr. 568 is offline  
Closed Thread Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off