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post #451 of 522 Old 01-21-2009, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

You lost me there. How would the case like the 10 ftL/0.1 fL (100:1 ANSI CR) correspond to 0.1-0.2 MTF without normalization? I'm not following your math.

--Darin

I was thinking 0.1-0.2 at the highest frequency, which is what I would expect from most projectors with 100 ANSI CR and edited my post almost right away. The edited number is still way too low and the bottom line seems to be that MTF at the lowest frequencies is not all that useful, even before normalization for most cases.
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post #452 of 522 Old 01-21-2009, 11:39 AM
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Alan,

Do you foresee any problem using both the ND filter and the ISCO III lens at the same time?

I.E. I picture the ND filter taped to your PJ lens at an angle as you describe above. This will make it tough to get the ISCOIII close to the PJ lens, will it not?

So your set up would be PJ lens plus ND filter, plus ISCOIII, and finally pj port glass?
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post #453 of 522 Old 01-21-2009, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

my demo unit was ship out from sim2 and should arrive me tomorror if
nothing went wrong.

this unit have some changes inside compare to the 2 units that alan and cm
had but this unit will be also not the final version but very close.

W.Mayer, also look forward to seeing your report and (if possible) measurements as it will help us triangulate this projectors overall performance.

Can you say what the specific differences are between your unit, CM's, and Alan's machines and the (I assume) final production versions please? TIA
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post #454 of 522 Old 01-21-2009, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty/twenty View Post

Alan,

Do you foresee any problem using both the ND filter and the ISCO III lens at the same time?

I.E. I picture the ND filter taped to your PJ lens at an angle as you describe above. This will make it tough to get the ISCOIII close to the PJ lens, will it not?

So your set up would be PJ lens plus ND filter, plus ISCOIII, and finally pj port glass?

Not sure in the end I will be using a ND filter. Ive just ordered different Matte white material.
If I decide to use an ND filter the lens on the Sim2 is recessed you can only position an add on lens so close which leaves plenty of room for any filter. I have no port glass, not needed in this case as this projector is very quiet unless using the highest lamp power. If I ever step up to a full DCI machine that may change.
I have tested this projector with the combination of ND filter and isco and the ANSI still cuts through.
Not saying the ANSI is or is not reduced I am saying you will not have any complaints and will still enjoy the image very much
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post #455 of 522 Old 01-21-2009, 12:13 PM
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Thanks Alan.
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post #456 of 522 Old 01-21-2009, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

Not sure in the end I will be using a ND filter. Ive just ordered different Matte white material.
If I decide to use an ND filter the lens on the Sim2 is recessed you can only position an add on lens so close which leaves plenty of room for any filter. I have no port glass, not needed in this case as this projector is very quiet unless using the highest lamp power. If I ever step up to a full DCI machine that may change.
I have tested this projector with the combination of ND filter and isco and the ANSI still cuts through. I am not taking saying the ANSI is or is not reduced I am saying you will not have any complaints and will still enjoy the image very much

I wouldn't worry about the image being too bright Alan.

You could do what the cold war bomber pilots did in the event of a "weapon release"; wear an eye patch over one eye, and when that one is ruined by the bright light, take off the patch and use the other eye!

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post #457 of 522 Old 01-21-2009, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odyssey View Post

I was thinking 0.1-0.2 at the highest frequency, which is what I would expect from most projectors with 100 ANSI CR and edited my post almost right away. The edited number is still way too low and the bottom line seems to be that MTF at the lowest frequencies is not all that useful, even before normalization for most cases.

If this projector has a much higher ANSI contrast but lower MTF than a DCI unit what does this say about most viewed material. It would seem that unless it is very high frequency (in the order of detail of single pixel width alternating) the higher ANSI would prevail.

Art


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post #458 of 522 Old 01-21-2009, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

If this projector has a much higher ANSI contrast but lower MTF than a DCI unit what does this say about most viewed material. It would seem that unless it is very high frequency (in the order of detail of single pixel width alternating) the higher ANSI would prevail.

Art

I don't know. My instinct is that MTF is more important overall.

I will have three projectors soon for comparison: Lumis, HD6K-M and Barco DP-1500. I could not decide between the Lumis and the HD6K-M for my G90 replacement, so I purchased both. I will keep only one. (This could be a good opportunity for someone thinking of purchasing one of these projectors.) The DP-1500 is the replacement for the DP-100. I wish I could measure MTF, but I can't. I wish that I at least had MTF data for the three lenses, but I won't. The only thing I can do is estimate the relative MTF subjectively by looking at image detail. There should be significant differences in the optical quality of lenses and prisms for the three projectors and these should be apparent in the images.
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post #459 of 522 Old 01-21-2009, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by owl1 View Post

W.Mayer, also look forward to seeing your report and (if possible) measurements as it will help us triangulate this projectors overall performance.

Can you say what the specific differences are between your unit, CM's, and Alan's machines and the (I assume) final production versions please? TIA


owen

i will measure the lumen at d 65 at min. and max.the on off cr. and may if i have time to do it ansi cr. as well.

no sorry cant talk about the specific differences at least not now.

more important for me will be how the picture
looks (after all the details i can read here) when i compare it
to my rs20 and my barco cinema dlp.

a very good thing is that odyssey will have soon
a lumis that he not only can compare to his new barco cinema unit
as he have order a chrisie hd6km as well
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post #460 of 522 Old 01-21-2009, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odyssey View Post

I don't know. My instinct is that MTF is more important overall.

I will have three projectors soon for comparison: Lumis, HD6K-M and Barco DP-1500. I could not decide between the Lumis and the HD6K-M for my G90 replacement, so I purchased both. I will keep only one. (This could be a good opportunity for someone thinking of purchasing one of these projectors.) The DP-1500 is the replacement for the DP-100. I wish I could measure MTF, but I can't. I wish that I at least had MTF data for the three lenses, but I won't. The only thing I can do is estimate the relative MTF subjectively by looking at image detail. There should be significant differences in the optical quality of lenses and prisms for the three projectors and these should be apparent in the images.

You have a PM bro.
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post #461 of 522 Old 01-21-2009, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odyssey View Post

I don't know. My instinct is that MTF is more important overall.

I will have three projectors soon for comparison: Lumis, HD6K-M and Barco DP-1500. I could not decide between the Lumis and the HD6K-M for my G90 replacement, so I purchased both. I will keep only one. (This could be a good opportunity for someone thinking of purchasing one of these projectors.) The DP-1500 is the replacement for the DP-100. I wish I could measure MTF, but I can't. I wish that I at least had MTF data for the three lenses, but I won't. The only thing I can do is estimate the relative MTF subjectively by looking at image detail. There should be significant differences in the optical quality of lenses and prisms for the three projectors and these should be apparent in the images.

I just don't see how MTF would be of more importance since that vast majority of material is mixed and the so called punch of DLP seems to eminate from ANSI contrast.
You will get to see them all so best of luck and I look foward to your report.

Art


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post #462 of 522 Old 01-21-2009, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

owen

i will measure the lumen at d 65 at min. and max.the on off cr. and may if i have time to do it ansi cr. as well.

no sorry cant talk about the specific differences at least not now.

more important for me will be how the picture
looks (after all the details i can read here) when i compare it
to my rs20 and my barco cinema dlp.

a very good thing is that odyssey will have soon
a lumis that he not only can compare to his new barco cinema unit
as he have order a chrisie hd6km as well

I appreciate your input Wolfgang. Should be fun to hear about what you think. I like your unbiased tell all including the warts style.

Art


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post #463 of 522 Old 01-21-2009, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by odyssey View Post

I will have three projectors soon for comparison: Lumis, HD6K-M and Barco DP-1500

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post #464 of 522 Old 01-21-2009, 07:08 PM
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I'm wondering with all this talk about MTF, what limits are there with the source being displayed? ie. I can see CGI films being able to possibly deliver maximum MTF, but how about live action, are the camera's able to pick up detail such that a strand of black hair taking up 1 pixel width against a white background was 100% black?

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post #465 of 522 Old 01-21-2009, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gino AUS View Post

I'm wondering with all this talk about MTF, what limits are there with the source being displayed? ie. I can see CGI films being able to possibly deliver maximum MTF, but how about live action, are the camera's able to pick up detail such that a strand of black hair taking up 1 pixel width against a white background was 100% black?

Most consumer content is probably source limited at the highest frequencies. The cameras should not be a problem, but sub par film scans and filtering are. The highest frequencies are not the only ones that are important.
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post #466 of 522 Old 01-22-2009, 08:11 AM
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My projector will necessarily be positioned towards the short end of the T3 lens. Thus, my light output will not be insignificant given my planned 115" wide 2.35:1 screen.

I am on the verge of buying my screen, and was looking for some opinions regarding my best option for the screen vs ND2 filter.

A) Buy a standard, 1 to 1.3 gain screen (non AT) and use a high quality coated ND2 filter, as has been discussed.

B) Buy a gray, <1 gain screen and not use an ND filter.

Regarding A, I would expect that there is SOME loss of ANSI with this method, plus the fact that I will be using an ISCO.

Regarding B, my entire front wall is covered with black GOM fabric, while the side walls are covered with a medium tan fabric (straw GOM). I would have some concern with light scatter from the non-focused screen decreasing ANSI contrast. (I do have false walls to either side of the screen covered in black fabric which may block some of the scatter)

Looking for opinions regarding what would be my best choice..

Thanks in advance!

Kevin
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post #467 of 522 Old 01-22-2009, 08:23 AM
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I have similar concerns. Nice problem, bulbs ought ot last and last....

With non AT I was considering th 0.8 gain DNP Epic. Wish I cold see this PJ one one of those. No gain and light control.
I'm setup as a DNP dealer but haven't brought one in to play with yet.

Opinions?


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post #468 of 522 Old 01-22-2009, 08:43 AM
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I have probably the most severe issue with excess light output. My screen is only 80" wide. But, as Alan said, there is no such thing as too much light output. The goal is to use the excess light output to improve the image and an ND filter is the last resort. A very good one should not harm the image much, but it will not improve it.

The best thing to do is to use a low gain screen. I want to improve uniformity also, so I will use a matte screen. I talked to Stewart and they have suitable materials that I will test. I will probably use a 0.5 gain and the end result should be the same as using Stewart Snowmatte, but with half the gain. Compared to Snowmatte, the gray screen does have a slight shift toward blue. If the CMS works correctly, this is not a problem.

Regarding in room ANSI CR, the non-directionality of the matte screen does decrease it. The low gain goes in the opposite direction and helps with ANSI CR because anything coming back to the screen is decreased by the low gain. Compared to a 1.3 gain screen, a 0.5 gain screen will decrease the effect by 62%. Some of this will be lost because of the lack of directionality, the there should be a net gain. Also, the image will be much more uniform with a matte screen.
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post #469 of 522 Old 01-22-2009, 09:21 AM
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Quote:


I have probably the most severe issue with excess light output. My screen is only 80" wide.

Wow - that's small. Watching a Lumis on that screen will be like duck hunting with a pom-pom gun..........and I thought my 106" and 118" wide screens were too small !!

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post #470 of 522 Old 01-22-2009, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Kevin, GetGrey,odyssey

The trick is to find a material that does not have any texture or sheen. Ive yet to find one but I think odyssey is on to something with the Stewart snowmatte.
Ive heard good things about this material, please let us know what you find.
I have not tested the latest DNP myself but have heard from a few it shows a sheen in bright scenes. I have also tried several gray screens and all showed texture. It looked like each manufacture ether use sparkles or sprayed a clear shiny coating on the fabric. None of the cloth screen material exhibit these artifacts but some people say they can see the fabric texture if you have a bright projector.
Finding a neutral screen material is harder then you think. I think we are limited to the Stewart Snowmatte, Harkness mattepreview. There is also the new Dalite Joe Kane screen but no one has reported on it yet I think because of cost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Wow - that's small. Watching a Lumis on that screen will be like duck hunting with a pom-pom gun..........and I thought my 106" and 118" wide screens were too small !!

Your eye adapts to the brightness and you always want more. With good source it is great. You only need to tame the brightness for pour quality content which sadly happens to out number the good stuff but all this depends on your viewing choice.




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post #471 of 522 Old 01-22-2009, 09:39 AM
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Yeah I'd be curious to know how much better a digital can look than a G90 on an 80' inch screen. Maybe he doesn't have the space to increase screen size. It will be like driving the kids to Sunday school with a Ferrari

JC
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post #472 of 522 Old 01-22-2009, 09:46 AM
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Wow. I'm 168" wide (microperf) and I may pick this piece up. Talk about a projector for all applications! I know Ash as one on the way. Looking forward to kid comments as well.


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post #473 of 522 Old 01-22-2009, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeycalda View Post

Yeah I'd be curious to know how much better a digital can look than a G90 on an 80' inch screen. Maybe he doesn't have the space to increase screen size. It will be like driving the kids to Sunday school with a Ferrari

JC

The 80" screen will be an increase in size. The present G90 screen is only 67" wide. The G90 has a lot of hours, but because of the small screen it has been driven very lightly and has hardly any tube wear. I hope that's appreciated when I sell it. This is a small room and the screen size is appropriate. It's not used for movies.

The Stewart matte gray screens are "matte" and don't have a reflective coating. They should have the same lack of texture as Snowmatte, but I will look for that. One alternate for the Lumis is to ask SIM2 for more range for the manual iris, if it's feasible. Uniformity could be a problem, but that can be easily tested.
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post #474 of 522 Old 01-22-2009, 10:14 AM
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If I ever get my projector, I will be using a 129" wide Carada BW. I can't comment on sheen, since my RS20 is not capable of lighting it up properly.

Phil
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post #475 of 522 Old 01-22-2009, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odyssey View Post

One alternate for the Lumis is to ask SIM2 for more range for the manual iris, if it's feasible. Uniformity could be a problem, but that can be easily tested.

How about a 200 watt bulb as an option in addition to the 300 watter?
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post #476 of 522 Old 01-22-2009, 10:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty/twenty View Post

How about a 200 watt bulb as an option in addition to the 300 watter?

They followed with a C3X lite at one time but it was a year or two after the original shipped. I think next in line after the Lumis will be the version without the host. Good idea though.

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Yeah I'd be curious to know how much better a digital can look than a G90 on an 80' inch screen. Maybe he doesn't have the space to increase screen size. It will be like driving the kids to Sunday school with a Ferrari

JC

Joey I still plan on running my Marquee in a separate room. I love the picture and not sure I can get rid of it now.
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post #477 of 522 Old 01-22-2009, 10:37 AM
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How about a 200 watt bulb as an option in addition to the 300 watter?

Yes, if it's possible.
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post #478 of 522 Old 01-22-2009, 11:19 AM
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Joey I still plan on running my Marquee in a separate room. I love the picture and not sure I can get rid of it now.

It's going to funny watching a movie in one room, and move to other room to watch the same movie and probably back again. I've been trapped there before, it's like a vicious circle and when you finaly venture outside you feel like a vampire.

Looking forward to the reviews/comparisons. Drink plenty of water!!
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post #479 of 522 Old 01-22-2009, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

I have not tested the latest DNP myself but have heard from a few it shows a sheen in bright scenes.

Nearest one I know of is a plane flight away. Might have to make a trip to check it out.

I've gutted my HT room and am in the process of putting it back together now. Time for a new screen for me anyway, but while my room is 100% light controllable, it's a multipurpose room (pool table, bar). I have always liked my Firehawk's ambient rejection capabilities a lot. I had about persuaded myself to get a MP Firehawk Cinecurve like Ash's, change out my B&W's for some behind the screen speakers. But, the DNP's ambient capabilities still sound good for my room. The 0.8 gain had been an issue previously, now it's a possible positive. If it doesn't have a personality of it's own anyway (sheen). I know they got it ISF certified for what that's worth.

Neil (ceehad here IIRC) and the guys at T+W/Genesis in Europe love the DNP and use it at their trade shows with a Titan Reference. The DNP rep said they used a Titan reference with it at CES. I try to hold my trade show trips to just CEDIA so missed it at CES. Just curious, one of you guys who was looking at a Titan Reference remember it's lumen output?

I believe Alan (R) said Sim2 was the EU distributor for SMX and he is very happy with that screen. Wonder how this bright puppy looks on SMX? See the weave you think?

Thanks, Scott


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post #480 of 522 Old 01-22-2009, 12:22 PM - Thread Starter
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The Lumis looked great on my SMX gray screen. I do not have a sample of their white material but at my seating distance ( 1.5 to 2x width ) I am sure it would be ok. No moire by the way.

Scott let us know if you see pixel interaction if you try the DNP.



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Alan Gouger is offline  
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