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post #181 of 522 Old 01-14-2009, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by owl1 View Post

Question: why would one want to disable dynamic black anyway?

Other than to take a measurement, you wouldn't. The integration of all the CR constituents seems very, very tight on this unit. Even the manual DI position is a biasing input the control system.

There are those idiots who would like nothing more than to portray the unit as a low CR piece that simply has a DI. Fortunately they are pretty easy to spot.

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post #182 of 522 Old 01-14-2009, 06:26 AM - Thread Starter
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A comment regarding the dynamic iris.
I have yet to turn off DB. It is indeed completely invisible. Because there are no side effects there's no reason to turn it off. You would never know its on.
It does not operate like any typical iris weve all experienced. This is something completely different, Ive yet to figure out the mechanics of this but it sets a new bench mark.
You have to experience this projector to understand. I am betting all owners of this machine will never turn off DB.
Once I have the time ( soon ) I will still provide numbers for both iris on/off.
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post #183 of 522 Old 01-14-2009, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by owl1 View Post

Question: why would one want to disable dynamic black anyway?

To be able to find out what the so called native contrast of the unit actually is.

Because of the way this is implemented, however, I think one has to question the validity of the concept due to the blurring of native and DI implemented contrast in this unit.

It may end up being purely an academic exercise but might be interesting none the less



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post #184 of 522 Old 01-14-2009, 08:21 AM
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It appears with this combination of technologies, that the dynamic system is totally transparent.

I couldn't see any negative effects in the time I watched it. This new lightning fast DI controlled by a motor similar to that used in computer hard drives, combined with the lamp modulation, puts this dynamic iris system in a whole new league as far as I'm concerned. Hats off the the engineers at SIM2.

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post #185 of 522 Old 01-14-2009, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

A comment regarding the dynamic iris.
I have yet to turn off DB. It is indeed completely invisible. Because there are no side effects there's no reason to turn it off. You would never know its on.
It does not operate like any typical iris weve all experienced. This is something completely different, Ive yet to figure out the mechanics of this but it sets a new bench mark.
You have to experience this projector to understand. I am betting all owners of this machine will never turn off DB.
Once I have the time ( soon ) I will still provide numbers for both iris on/off.

Alan,

since you have the Lumis there can you just do a side-by-side for black level with the RS20 if you don't mind. Although the blacks looked good at CES they didn't strike me like the RS20 where they are inky black. There is no question these PJ's are in 2 different leagues but the RS20's blacks imo still reign but need a confirmation from a side-by-side if you don't mind.

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post #186 of 522 Old 01-14-2009, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Dallas View Post

since you have the Lumis there can you just do a side-by-side for black level with the RS20 if you don't mind

I will have a Lumis very soon. Hopefully, I will be able to directly compare with the C3X1080, 11S2, RS20, Sony 4k SXRD......... and possibly an HT5000 and a Barco DCI unit. Time may not permit the last 2 as they wont be at my place.

Black level, taken in isolation, wont translate into any really meaningful criteria by which to judge an overall image. It is important, but the J6P fixation that's seen elsewhere is rather shortsighted and ill-informed. All you need do is compare a comparatively low CR DCI unit to the RS20 you mention to see that. Any number of high end domestic units will show the same.

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post #187 of 522 Old 01-14-2009, 09:03 AM
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Quote:


Black level, taken in isolation, wont translate into any really meaningful criteria by which to judge an overall image. It is important, but the J6P fixation that's seen elsewhere is rather shortsighted and ill-informed. All you need do is compare a 2.5k CR DCI unit to the RS20 you mention to see that.

Or my dVision 1080p to an RS1. When comparing those two, I still much prefered the dVision's picture despite the lower on / off contrast ratio.

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post #188 of 522 Old 01-14-2009, 09:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Dallas View Post

Alan,

since you have the Lumis there can you just do a side-by-side for black level with the RS20 if you don't mind. Although the blacks looked good at CES they didn't strike me like the RS20 where they are inky black. There is no question these PJ's are in 2 different leagues but the RS20's blacks imo still reign but need a confirmation from a side-by-side if you don't mind.

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Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

I will have a Lumis very soon. I will be able to directly compare with the C3X1080, 11S2, RS20, Sony 4k SXRD......... and hopefully an HT5000 and a Barco DCI unit. Time may not permit the last 2 as they wont be at my place.

Black level, taken in isolation, wont translate into any really meaningful criteria by which to judge an overall image. It is important, but the J6P fixation that's seen elsewhere is rather shortsighted and ill-informed. All you need do is compare a 2.5k CR DCI unit to the RS20 you mention to see that.

Hi Chris

I no longer have the RS20 setup in my room. Looks like CM will be the best to report on a comparison over a wide range of projectors....you lucky dog

I will comment though based on memory. I lived with the RS2 for a year and then the RS20 for a month. Viewing 235:1 content without an add on lens the Lumis is better. There are no vissible bars but my RS still showed some slightly. I could dial them out completely with the RS but in doing so my black level was crushed. With the Lumis not only are the bars black but you have some flexibility in brightness in the active picture before it effects the black bars top/bottom. My personal preference is to see all the shadow detail without crush. When a movie calls for black with the lumis it steps up to the plate. Of course it can be adjusted to crush black as well if your not careful. I always felt shadow detail was crushed a little using gamma 2.4 with the JVC, maybe it was my settings. This is where DLP excels, the high ANSI could be the reason cutting through revealing extra detail across the entire IRE range.
Both machines deliver some of the best black level from digital no doubt. I wish the flood gate would open for the Lumis so it starts shipping in volume so we can hear from others.
CM..batters up!
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post #189 of 522 Old 01-14-2009, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Or my dVision 1080p to an RS1. When comparing those two, I still much prefered the dVision's picture despite the lower on / off contrast ratio.

Absolutely no question whatsoever.

Good luck convincing J6P of that fact.

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post #190 of 522 Old 01-14-2009, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

There are those idiots who would like nothing more than to portray the unit as a low CR piece that simply has a DI. Fortunately they are pretty easy to spot.

Not sure who you're referring to here, but for the record let me just say I have no experience at all with a DI projector. I've read reports where people have had mixed feelings towards it and merely wanted to understand what the native contrast was as a fallback. Yes, if the implementation is as good as it sounds like it is, it would be more or less a moot point. But since you *can* disable it, I figured there must be a reason. I'm seriously considering buying this projector so it would be nice to understand.
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post #191 of 522 Old 01-14-2009, 09:48 AM
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The Dynamic Black feature has only been mentioned when discusiing the black bars from 2.35 material. Does DB effect the entire image as well or is it's main purpose to eliminate the bars.

Chris your in Lions Den, tread carefully

Thanks,
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post #192 of 522 Old 01-14-2009, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian_Currie View Post

Not sure who you're referring to here

Absolutely not your good self.

Im actually a long time DI hater myself. It wont get a pass from me if its in any way intrusive.

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post #193 of 522 Old 01-14-2009, 09:55 AM
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Unless I'm mistaken, this unit does not have local dimming so any reduction in light levels would have to affect the entire frame. Obviously, dynamic gamma should be used but unless there is something new involved with this implementation, the native CR will limit the dynamic range in any single frame.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

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post #194 of 522 Old 01-14-2009, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeycalda View Post

The Dynamic Black feature has only been mentioned when discusiing the black bars from 2.35 material. Does DB effect the entire image as well or is it's main purpose to eliminate the bars.

Chris your in Lions Den, tread carefully

Thanks,
JC

DB,lamp modulation have a positive effect on the entire image.
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post #195 of 522 Old 01-14-2009, 10:13 AM
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I have not been a fan of dynamic iris, so I will give it great scrutiny, when it arrives. Of course I will also be comparing it directly to my RS20. As for why the DB can be disabled, I think it is so that you can see what it is doing, and agree it would be interesting to have CR measurements with it on and off.

Phil
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post #196 of 522 Old 01-14-2009, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

I will have a Lumis very soon. Hopefully, I will be able to directly compare with the C3X1080, 11S2, RS20, Sony 4k SXRD......... and possibly an HT5000 and a Barco DCI unit. Time may not permit the last 2 as they wont be at my place.

WOW CM has more cash than Kellogs got cornflakes!

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post #197 of 522 Old 01-14-2009, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

A comment regarding the dynamic iris.
I have yet to turn off DB. It is indeed completely invisible. Because there are no side effects there's no reason to turn it off. You would never know its on.
It does not operate like any typical iris weve all experienced. This is something completely different, Ive yet to figure out the mechanics of this but it sets a new bench mark.
You have to experience this projector to understand. I am betting all owners of this machine will never turn off DB.
Once I have the time ( soon ) I will still provide numbers for both iris on/off.

Thanks Alan,

I have not yet seen a truly invisible DI. That does not mean that all things considered, I would rather run a particular PJ with the DI on because it does far more harm than good. I seem to recall some recommendation that was made about Planar's implementation of Dynamic Black that it was best left off. That is why I asked.

I look forward to seeing one soon.

Again, it is good that there is excitement again in the DLP camp.

Affable Nitwit
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post #198 of 522 Old 01-14-2009, 11:59 AM
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I'm confused by CES reports re: the lumen output of this new unit from the demo on the 109" wide 2.35:1 screen.

In particular, in post #153, Craig Peer states he didn't think the Lumis CES demo was particularly bright at all, even though the screen seemed small to him.

Chris Dallas's flickr screen shots from the show, list the Lumis demo screen size as 109" wide at 2.35:1. That size would mesh with Craig's observation that the screen was not very big. The screenshots Chris posted on flickr do not look overly bright to me either.

In this thread, Alan Gouger posted the minimum lumen output of the new Lumis to be 1640 lumens at low lamp, iris closed, with 50 plus hours on the lamp. Assuming Sim2 used Stewart Studiotec g3 1.3 gain material for this CES demo, Carleton Bale's HT calculator pegs the actual ft lamberts at this 109" wide 2.35:1 screen to be 60 ft lamberts. A 1.0 gain material screen would yield 45ft lamberts.

45-60 Ft lamberts seems pretty bright to me. Wouldn't this have been be very noticeable at the CES demo?
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post #199 of 522 Old 01-14-2009, 12:12 PM
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about cr.

please pay attention that the limitation is your room and NOT the pr.
when we talk about rs20 and lumis and other high cr. pr.

i saw the rs 20 at a dealer that have a bright room and i think the pr. was
brocken.
i am sure they not have more than 1500:1 on off visible at the screen.
possible less than 1000:1!!!
this rs 20 look worse than a early 1280x720 first gerneration lcd in my room!

its the room and i know why my cinema is a black box with all the not nice
looking carpet and velvet.

i desing it this way as some day i think we can have beside the crts one bright pr. that have much more cr. than early 3 chip 1280x1024 dlps or 1280x720 lcds.

seams now this time has come.

the hole discusion reminds my to hd bds vs dvd.

when people compare both with a 1280x1024 lcd 32" wide in 177" distance and than they say oh no difference dvd looks as good as blue ray

so look again where is your bottleneck may its not your pr.
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post #200 of 522 Old 01-14-2009, 12:23 PM
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Quote:


In particular, in post #153, Craig Peer states he didn't think the Lumis CES demo was particularly bright at all, even though the screen seemed small to him.

Chris Dallas's flickr screen shots from the show, list the Lumis demo screen size as 109" wide at 2.35:1. That size would mesh with Craig's observation that the screen was not very big. The screenshots Chris posted on flickr do not look overly bright to me either.

I should restate that it didn't look overly bright to ME. However, I watch a dVision 1080p with two 250 watt bulbs burning at the same time - maybe my eyes are fried. I usually watch with around 18 foot lamberts coming off my screen. I'm throwing out a wild as# guess that I was seeing maybe 20 - 24 fl at CES. And we don't know how many hours were on the machine I was watching at CES. I never asked. But they did have it on low lamp / smallest iris I believe. The brochure does say 1200 - 3000 lumens adjustable.

Anyway, my screen brightness calculations for the Lumis for my theater with Alan's lowest brightness reading puts me at 37 foot lamberts at the lowest brightness settings on both my 106" wide Da-Lite HCCV 16:9 screen ( I consider a real world 1.0 gain ) and using the zoom method, about the same on my 118" wide 2.35:1 Firehawk G3 ( 1.25 or 1.3 gain, eh? ). Not outragously bright at the lowest setting, and a ND filter 0.3 (2x power, 1 f-stop) will bring it right down to 18.71 foot lamberts - right where I like it!!

But if you have a big screen, just raise the lamp output and let er rip!

Quote:


Finally some numbers.

57 hours on the lamp.
D65
Aemc model CA813 light meter
Edit: Measurements were taken with dynamic black engaged.

2315 lumens hi lamp open iris
1768 " low lamp open iris
2094 " hi lamp closed iris
1640 " low lamp closed iris

Low lamp closed iris will work perfectly in my theater !!

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post #201 of 522 Old 01-14-2009, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty/twenty View Post

I'm confused by CES reports re: the lumen output of this new unit from the demo on the 109" wide 2.35:1 screen.

In particular, in post #153, Craig Peer states he didn't think the Lumis CES demo was particularly bright at all, even though the screen seemed small to him.

Chris Dallas's flickr screen shots from the show, list the Lumis demo screen size as 109" wide at 2.35:1. That size would mesh with Craig's observation that the screen was not very big. The screenshots Chris posted on flickr do not look overly bright to me either.

In this thread, Alan Gouger posted the minimum lumen output of the new Lumis to be 1640 lumens at low lamp, iris closed, with 50 plus hours on the lamp. Assuming Sim2 used Stewart Studiotec g3 1.3 gain material for this CES demo, Carleton Bale's HT calculator pegs the actual ft lamberts at this 109" wide 2.35:1 screen to be 60 ft lamberts.

60 Ft lamberts seems pretty bright to me. Wouldn't this be very noticeable at the CES demo?

It would be very noticeable indeed.

Firstly, filters are commonly used in demos where space is restricted. Im not saying that's the case here.

Also I think you'll find the lamp hours would be way higher than Alans, possibly with a full fade of 30%. There are units that have been running demos for weeks.That may mean a min of 1100. Unit to unit variation may drop that too. Throw in a low gain screen too and were easily down to mid 20s.

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post #202 of 522 Old 01-14-2009, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

A comment regarding the dynamic iris.
I have yet to turn off DB. It is indeed completely invisible. Because there are no side effects there's no reason to turn it off. You would never know its on...

IIRC that comment echos gregr's Widescreen Review review of the DB system in the Planar 8150. That Dynamic Black implementation does not suffer from the primary DI artifact, brightness compression!!
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post #203 of 522 Old 01-14-2009, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

Again, it is good that there is excitement again in the DLP camp.

I dont think there has been a lack of excitement tbh LG.

There is no shortage of genuine world class, reference level, machines in this forum. A number of companies such as Christie, Barco, Sim2, PD, DPI etc have been producing new machines that are in a totally different class to the typical J6P machine.

Admittedly, we dont have conga lines, Jihads and human sacrifices before a single person has actually seen one.

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post #204 of 522 Old 01-14-2009, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeycalda View Post

Chris your in Lions Den, tread carefully

Thanks,
JC

Joey,

although I enjoy a great movie at home from time to time I will admit I am not a home theater buff & very old school for that matter to boot. I like my toys yes, but they are a lot noisier than any of these PJ's

I just tell it like it is from what my eyes see & if people can't accept my opinion I will not take offence. I've been in the film industry for 30 years and people who know me know what I'm about & also know I have no bias towards anything anywhere.

The only expensive PJ I've ever purchased was the JVC DLA-QXIG projector for $250K in 2003 but not for my home theatre, but for my business that I'm in and could never justify it's price for at home use. At that time it was as good as one can get but now we have propelled so far in so little time with so much more to choose from & better to boot. In today's plethora of products my eyes see very little difference from high end Christies to lower end JVC's and my true wait is really for laser PJ's, at that time I will invest again.

OT: In the meantime, today I've made another investment to add to my collection, a gorgeous 1970 Plymouth Roadrunner 440 six pack with the numbers matching, vitamin C orange, white interior, automatic with a floor console shift in museum condition. I'll have pictures up soon Sorry for the OT post but cars is my hobby & where I love to invest.

Cheers
Chris

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post #205 of 522 Old 01-14-2009, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

about cr.

please pay attention that the limitation is your room and NOT the pr.

Please keep in mind that this is only true if people have lights on or light coming in. Even white walls don't reduce on/off CR unless there is other lighting. A white room can show the advantages of hundreds of thousands to 1 on/off CR and higher. The color of the room affects ANSI CR.

In short, a person does not need dark walls to benefit from high on/off CR. Lowered ANSI CR from light colored walls may decrease the number of cases where high on/off CR shows its benefit, but it doesn't get rid of them.

--Darin

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post #206 of 522 Old 01-14-2009, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

IIRC that comment echos gregr's Widescreen Review review of the DB system in the Planar 8150. That Dynamic Black implementation does not suffer from the primary DI artifact, brightness compression!!


Thanks. I just read that review and Greg does have a great discussion of Dynamic black. It is copyrighted so I can't cut and paste it here.

Here is a very brief summary of Greg's explanation. Apparently Dynamic Black increases peak signal levels to compensate for the amount that the the iris will close. Greg claims that this is done so that overall image brightness remains proper. Some process by which the overall brightness of an image is used to determine the proper peak signal brightness. This process can result in some clipping, which Greg says is hard to see. Black levels are improved by a factor of 3.5. Intra image gamma is not changed by Dynamic Black and no dynamic gamma is used. Greg claims that this approach avoids brightness compression.

I wonder if Sim2's implementation is the same as or improved from Planar's.

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post #207 of 522 Old 01-14-2009, 12:58 PM
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I dont think there has been a lack of excitement tbh LG.

I guess maybe I was speaking for myself then. This projector makes me excited so someone throw some cold water on me.

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post #208 of 522 Old 01-14-2009, 01:00 PM
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"Apparently Dynamic Black increases peak signal levels to compensate for the amount that the the iris will close."

What if the signal is 100 IRE?

In any case, w/o local dimming, I don't see how any iris or control system can avoid brightness compression in a dim scene that contains areas of high IRE.

That's not to say the implementation isn't transparent, as the only way to know that it's there may be a comparison with a pj that has a native CR as high as the dynamic CR.

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post #209 of 522 Old 01-14-2009, 01:12 PM
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"Apparently Dynamic Black increases peak signal levels to compensate for the amount that the the iris will close."

What if the signal is 100 IRE?

That is always the trouble with DIs. I just wonder how much it will be noticed unless it is compared to a reference.

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post #210 of 522 Old 01-14-2009, 01:39 PM
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That's not to say the implementation isn't transparent, as the only way to know that it's there may be a comparison with a pj that has a native CR as high as the dynamic CR.

Not only is the DI transparent, combined with the look that a superb 3 chip DLP produces to begin with, it's gorgeous looking.

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