Sim2 Lumis 3 Chip DLP little Test - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 371 Old 01-27-2009, 02:54 PM
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Xenon is a more stable lamp. in a couple of areas.

UHP is not as stable. in a couple of areas.

However it is amazing what can be done once hundreds of millions are thrown at a technology in R and D. UHP has been made to perform in a far more stable manner within the usages that it is being deployed.

THink...
Xenon = V12
UHP = Turbocharged/Supercharged small block V6

when you are driving on most roads, the two technologies really do not compare. you can accomplish almost everything with either. Get onto the Salt flats... or the autobahn... then one takes off against the other. UHP still is unlikely to take over in either VERY large screens, or in 24/7 applications. Xenon is just too pricey for wide widescale projector use.

the UHP has been augmented by over a decade of constant technology enhancements and developments. The Xenon has stayed pretty stable since there is no real need to improve as much as the UHP had to.

Now SOMEBODY here may go on and on about how we are all blind idiots to not see the differences... but like anything... tradeoffs. if you asked a designer to trade a no holds barred machine, it would likley include Xenon. just due to its inherent nature. but if that no holds barred machine needed to sell in the real world... tradeoffs.

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post #272 of 371 Old 01-27-2009, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

Now SOMEBODY here may go on and on about how we are all blind idiots to not see the differences...

Are you talking to me?

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post #273 of 371 Old 01-27-2009, 03:08 PM
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Can anyone comment on the PQ comparison of the Lumis to the HT3000e? I'm sure the Lumis is brighter, but it sounds like the pq tricks of the 3000e are what have been incorporated into the 3-chipper. Are their other new features (other than having 3 chips)?


Or maybe the better question: will there be a 1-chip product with the new pq advances of the Lumis?
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post #274 of 371 Old 01-27-2009, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

I heard a few good reports on the Wolf, sadly I also heard Wolf have recently folded.

Jim Burns wrote a letter explaining that "due to the current economic condition other courses of action were worth pursuing".

Well CM paint a wolf effigy on the side of the LUMIS as a first kill reminder of the projector wars of 2009.
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post #275 of 371 Old 01-27-2009, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Can anyone comment on the PQ comparison of the Lumis to the HT3000e? I'm sure the Lumis is brighter, but it sounds like the pq tricks of the 3000e are what have been incorporated into the 3-chipper. Are their other new features (other than having 3 chips)?

The 3000e is fundamentally a standard single chip DLP, albeit one of the very best.

The Lumis is massively different to a 3 chip 3000e, although it does contain the lamp modulation. It also has the Dynamic Black system, but with a unique custom designed iris. This has been placed at the very front of the light path, and has pushed the ANSI performance to a record level. There is also a limited range manual iris.

All of these are useful in isolation, together they add up to far more that the sum of their parts. The way these element are implemented is very different to anything else atm. The control, analysis and synchronization is (according to the engineers) the real secret.

Its the first dynamic system that's basically undetectable, due to the synchronization, motor speed and the fact that its also dead silent.

Bottom line, this is a very different beast to a 3 chip 3000e

If you need further info, just shout.

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post #276 of 371 Old 01-27-2009, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

The 3000e is fundamentally a standard single chip DLP, albeit one of the very best.

The Lumis is massively different to a 3 chip 3000e, although it does contain the lamp modulation. It also has the Dynamic Black system, but with a unique custom designed iris. This has been placed at the very front of the light path, and has pushed the ANSI performance to a record level. There is also a limited range manual iris.

All of these are useful in isolation, together they add up to far more that the sum of their parts. The way these element are implemented is very different to anything else atm. The control, analysis and synchronization is (according to the engineers) the real secret.

Its the first dynamic system that's basically undetectable, due to the synchronization, motor speed and the fact that its also dead silent.

Bottom line, this is a very different beast to a 3 chip 3000e

If you need further info, just shout.

Thanks, CM. I guess what I wanted to ask, was whether or not one expected a new 1-chipper (presumably a successor to the 3000e) that had all the new pq advances of the Lumis (other, of course, than 3 chips), that would have the higher CR, though of course not the brightness.
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post #277 of 371 Old 01-27-2009, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Well CM paint a wolf effigy on the side of the LUMIS as a first kill reminder of the projector wars of 2009.

FFS Peter, that's a bit much even for you. You make it sound like Terminators taking down companies.

I think its very sad that Wolf went down. They were on my shortlist.

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post #278 of 371 Old 01-27-2009, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Thanks, CM. I guess what I wanted to ask, was whether or not one expected a new 1-chipper (presumably a successor to the 3000e) that had all the new pq advances of the Lumis (other, of course, than 3 chips), that would have the higher CR, though of course not the brightness.

I think that its an absolute certainty that the Lumis technology will migrate in both directions of the price range.

I think were also getting close to the last generation of PJs where CR has any real meaning.

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post #279 of 371 Old 01-27-2009, 03:45 PM
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I think it only fitting to open an Italian wine at this premiere. Perhaps a Casanova di Neri Brunello di Montalcino Tenuta Nuova 1997. Or a nice Barolo. But which movie - Dark City, Blade Runner or The Dark Knight?

Anyway, I patiently await this new projector to start shipping!!

Well, certainly '97 was a great year for Brunellos. The di Neri was no exception. The Banfi Poggio Riserva '97 (below) is a favorite of mine... '99 Castello Banfi sitting next to it is not so bad either... but a little Louis XIII is not a bad addition as well.. .


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post #280 of 371 Old 01-27-2009, 03:59 PM
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I've got some Banfi Poggio Riserva '97, and a couple of magnums of Castelgiocondo Brunello di Montalcino Riserva 1997 too. In fact, you can see the Castelgiocongo just left of the double mag of Capanna Riserva 2001.......



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post #281 of 371 Old 01-27-2009, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

Christy: Didn't you report that a CineDigitar worked with a C3X? I felt the CineDigitar is simply too small to use with these projectors. The prime is just too recessed and the beam size too large at the lens. It may fit but if it does, it will just barely and you may have edge effects from the borderline vingetting. Perhaps if one "stuck it in the hole", but then you would be very limited on tilt, yaw, etc. tunability. Or if you were at the long end of a T3, maybe. It would still be too close for comfort I believe.

it worked up to 11 feet (2.34:1) on a c3x 1080p with a T2 lens. When it got larger than that it started having vignetting and internal reflections. I could get a passable image up to 12 feet with tweaking the angle of the the lens.
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post #282 of 371 Old 01-27-2009, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christy Warren View Post

it worked up to 11 feet (2.34:1) on a c3x 1080p with a T2 lens. When it got larger than that it started having vignetting and internal reflections. I could get a passable image up to 12 feet with tweaking the angle of the the lens.

Thanks, but there is a piece of info missing. For the 11ft 2.34 width (I presume width), what was the throw distance? As for the tweaking lens angle, there is really only one "right" place, unless you are ok with unbalanced pinchshion, etc.
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post #283 of 371 Old 01-27-2009, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

Thanks, but there is a piece of info missing. For the 11ft 2.34 width (I presume width), what was the throw distance? As for the tweaking lens angle, there is really only one "right" place, unless you are ok with unbalanced pinchshion, etc.

The room was 20 feet long, so throw was 18+ feet.

Just in case, remember that TR is computed based on 16:9 equivalent

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post #284 of 371 Old 01-27-2009, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christy Warren View Post

Just in case, remember that TR is computed based on 16:9 equivalent

Yes, I know, I work with them a lot Still I am surprised you could get a CineDigitar to work (properly) with a 2.15 TR on a C3X. Isco IIIL doesn't have a lot of wiggle room with it and aperature is much, much larger than the Cinedigitar. I don't want to take the thread OT but thanks for the answer. Best, Scott
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post #285 of 371 Old 01-27-2009, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

I think that its an absolute certainty that the Lumis technology will migrate in both directions of the price range.

I think were also getting close to the last generation of PJs where CR has any real meaning.

Sounds good, CM. So if I hold onto my RS20 for 3 yrs, say, I may be tempted to try a new technology if something exciting has emerged by then.
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post #286 of 371 Old 01-27-2009, 07:16 PM
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Quote:


Sounds good, CM. So if I hold onto my RS20 for 3 yrs, say, I may be tempted to try a new technology if something exciting has emerged by then.

I agree. It is good to see the continued advances in performance of projectors at all levels. I have finally taken down my G90 and replaced with the RS20. Both are great projectors with trade-offs. The Lumis looks like a fabulous projector with less trade-off. I am glad it wasn't announced a few months ago when I pre-ordered the RS20 or I would have had a very difficult price/performance decision to make. At this point, although the Lumis looks to be the best available for my application, I am quite happy with my purchase. Of course at some point I will be tempted to upgrade and it is good to know that the technological improvements will be substantial.
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post #287 of 371 Old 01-27-2009, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by howdydoody View Post

I agree. It is good to see the continued advances in performance of projectors at all levels. I have finally taken down my G90 and replaced with the RS20. Both are great projectors with trade-offs. The Lumis looks like a fabulous projector with less trade-off. I am glad it wasn't announced a few months ago when I pre-ordered the RS20 or I would have had a very difficult price/performance decision to make. At this point, although the Lumis looks to be the best available for my application, I am quite happy with my purchase. Of course at some point I will be tempted to upgrade and it is good to know that the technological improvements will be substantial.

I compared the RS20 to my C3X1080 and all I can say is that you have a fantastic projector.
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post #288 of 371 Old 01-27-2009, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W. View Post

I think it is useful even without dynamic technologies. The RS1 doesn't use dynamic technologies but the contrast ratio takes a nose dive above 2% APL scenes. I think the graph of contrast ratios from low APL through ANSI is useful for every projector and display technology made as it gives you an overall picture of what the display is capable of.

Take the lumis with DB turned off, it starts at an on/off of 5K:1 and ends up at 1k:1 at ANSI. Take the RS20, it starts with an on/off up to 42k:1 and ends up at 250:1 at ANSI. What the graph will tell us is where the crossover point is. I suspect on DCI machines the crossover from 2,500:1 to its ANSI is very low in the APL range compared to the RS20, and that is why the DCI machines can hold their own (contrast-wise) even with such a low on/off contrast ratio compared to the RS20.

It would be a worthwhile exercise to take an RS20, Lumis, and DCI machine and do such a graph (Lumis DB on and off) and see what it looks like. I think it would be very enlightening and could explain a lot of what we are seeing in the visual results.

Of course there is far more to a projector than just contrast, but this would at least provide some insight to those that preach on/off contrast as being the end all of display technology.

I couldn't have said it better myself. It would be very interesting to see the contrast results from the RS20, Lumis and a DCI machine directly compared using the same benchmark. I plan on measuring the RS20 but others will have to measure the Lumis and DCI machines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital2004 View Post

exactly
different machines different use different "clients" different home theaters:
big giant screens with punchy images imply tons of brigthness. the domain of the LUMIS or much more expensive machines.
see attached file.
recent lcd barely bright enough for a 200-220cm screen

Nice diagram! Yes it clearly shows the turf differences between the Lumis and RS20.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

I know in your contrast thread it appeared that there was an issue comparing dynamic contrast with native that translated well into on screen performance ?

Initially there was some drama where it was felt that using full white (100%) patterns didn't show the full benefit of dynamic technologies because dynamic technologies render most of their benefit to shadow detail. So I came up with another methodology and second set of test patterns designed to complement the earlier graph and this new method captures what happens from 0-100 IRE and pretty clearly shows the strengths and weaknesses of native vs dynamic. As an example, the first graph in the link below shows the VW50 iris on/off compared to an RS1 for example:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post10631504

One can see how much benefit the iris and dynamic gamma add to contrast and in what ranges. This graph and the contrast vs APL graph complement each well in my opinion. To be clear though there is no issue with the data that is measured. Each suite of test patterns can be directly applied to native and dynamic technologies alike and directly compared to one another. Data is data. It's the interpretation of the data where issues can arise. Both graphs tell us a tremendous amount of information and much more than ANSI or on/off, but they still don't tell everything.
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post #289 of 371 Old 01-27-2009, 08:50 PM
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Wolfgang,

There has been a lot of discussion about the use of DB in the Lumis and speculation that there is no BC. Is it possible for you to display the test pattern below on the Lumis?

http://public.csusm.edu/kai/mark/avs...0low%20APL.gif

This is a 1080p 20 step greyscale test pattern from 0-100 IRE in 5 IRE steps using very small rectangles, so that the overall APL is very low. When viewed on the Lumis the image should be very dark which should engage the iris and DB and thereby provide some strong clues as to what happens with the final image gamma displayed on the screen. Any BC will immediately be noticeable by a merging of one or more of the rectangles.
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post #290 of 371 Old 01-28-2009, 01:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

Yes, I know, I work with them a lot Still I am surprised you could get a CineDigitar to work (properly) with a 2.15 TR on a C3X. Isco IIIL doesn't have a lot of wiggle room with it and aperature is much, much larger than the Cinedigitar. I don't want to take the thread OT but thanks for the answer. Best, Scott

hi
very much time Schneider releases a lens a bit larger thanthe Cinedigitar
we all know the longer throws reduce brigthness capacity also.
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post #291 of 371 Old 01-28-2009, 02:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

Wolfgang,

There has been a lot of discussion about the use of DB in the Lumis and speculation that there is no BC. Is it possible for you to display the test pattern below on the Lumis?

http://public.csusm.edu/kai/mark/avs...0low%20APL.gif

This is a 1080p 20 step greyscale test pattern from 0-100 IRE in 5 IRE steps using very small rectangles, so that the overall APL is very low. When viewed on the Lumis the image should be very dark which should engage the iris and DB and thereby provide some strong clues as to what happens with the final image gamma displayed on the screen. Any BC will immediately be noticeable by a merging of one or more of the rectangles.

Mark, I think there will be some BC somewhere. I cant see otherwise tbh. It will be a question of how much, where and when and how noticeable.

Wolfgang actually posted a couple of images that showed some.

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post #292 of 371 Old 01-28-2009, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post

CM,
I was carefull not to mention about financial situation at wolf although I was suspecting that, I guess I am not as candid as you.
I would like to start a discussion on why we were made to believe until yet that a xenon bulb can only display a good picture.
Any comments.... anyone!
Ash

This subject was covered a lot in a thread on the 3000 plus forum some time back . One of the dscussions centered around xenon being more true in color than UHP and it is but then the subject of filtering was added which totally changed the landscape as to the color reproduction differences between the two.

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post #293 of 371 Old 01-28-2009, 07:28 AM
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Regarding xenon vs UHP, there should be no difference in color performance for Rec 709 content, with three exceptions. The spectrum of xenon and UHP for a specific color within Rec 709 will be different, but should look the same.

The three exceptions are warm up requirement, stability, and response to dimming. Xenon requires no warm up for accurate color while UHP does. I don't know what this requirement is, but I am guessing about 20 minutes. UHP will require more frequent calibration because it will drift with age while xenon hardly drifts at all. The last is what happens when the lamp is dimmed. This could be a problem with UHP, but needs to be measured to be sure.

For content with a much larger color gamut than Rec 709, xenon is clearly better. Some think that this type of content will be available to us soon and others don't.
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post #294 of 371 Old 01-28-2009, 07:42 AM
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I would really be surprised if we have enough content that is outside 709 color space to care about in the next few years.

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post #295 of 371 Old 01-28-2009, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
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i got the christie hd6km today and test it.

thank you norman for let me see this unit and i wish you
a soon recover.

short here the result.





cr. is with iris off only arround 1600:1 and with dynamic iris 8700:1.

color is not as good as the lumis.

the pitures was made with a canon 5d mk1 camera full manual control and
i use the same settings to do this pictures.
the barco had a nd filter in front and both pr. had 31 ftl at the screen.
screen size was 5m.

first the christiehd 6km than the barco cinema dp 2000.






may you should go back to page number 5 post 99 where i ask
" witch is witch" and compare how close my barco cinema unit is to the
sim2 lumis.
thats this time not the case.

color with the christie sure can get better when you did a calibration but
i doubt that cr. can be improved.



good thing about this christie is that the convergence is very good.
just up in the left there is red out about a half pixel
rest of the screen arround 0,25 pixel and almost perfect in the center.

the details in the face from this women in casino rojal
the christie show as good as my barco cinema dlp.
a clear advantage over the lumis.

the christie is bigger than the lumis and the noise level is
of course more as it have with about 5100lumen i measure at
d65 with 2 new lamps mutch more power.
you can hear the iris working inside a bit.

their is a bug when a black picture for about 10 or more sec. was displayed
and it change fast to a bright seq.than you can see
for about 1.5 sec. that the picture is very bad.
may you can see how this will look here.
first the good one and than the one with the bug.







all in all the lumis have the better picture quality especially when sim2
can remove this filtering
that cause that faces are look as they remove all the details.

i know some one that have such a christie hd6km and he think the
measurment was not right when jason did it but
now as this unit have about the same nubers it seams that this
is normaly for this model at least at the moment.
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post #296 of 371 Old 01-28-2009, 04:15 PM
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Thanks Wolfgang. I would be interested to hear how that one scene where you found brightness compression on the truck with the Lumis, looks with the Christie. Other than the bug you mentioned above, do you see pumping with the iris on this one?

Thanks,
Darin

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post #297 of 371 Old 01-28-2009, 04:30 PM
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Wolfgang,
It looks like serious gamma issues with that last shot.Also as you said the color should be similar to your Barco with calibration.

There are surprisingly similar results in that frame between your projector and mine oceans away and different cameras despite Mercury vs Xenon, of course on a much much smaller screen.




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post #298 of 371 Old 01-28-2009, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

i got the christie hd6km today and test it.

thank you norman for let me see this unit and i wish you
a soon recover.

short here the result.





cr. is with iris off only arround 1600:1 and with dynamic iris 8700:1.

color is not as good as the lumis.

the pitures was made with a canon 5d mk1 camera full manual control and
i use the same settings to do this pictures.
the barco had a nd filter in front and both pr. had 31 ftl at the screen.
screen size was 5m.

first the christiehd 6km than the barco cinema dp 2000.






may you should go back to page number 5 post 99 where i ask
" witch is witch" and compare how close my barco cinema unit is to the
sim2 lumis.
thats this time not the case.

color with the christie sure can get better when you did a calibration but
i doubt that cr. can be improved.



good thing about this christie is that the convergence is very good.
just up in the left there is red out about a half pixel
rest of the screen arround 0,25 pixel and almost perfect in the center.

the details in the face from this women in casino rojal
the christie show as good as my barco cinema dlp.
a clear advantage over the lumis.

the christie is bigger than the lumis and the noise level is
of course more as it have with about 5100lumen i measure at
d65 with 2 new lamps mutch more power.
you can hear the iris working inside a bit.

their is a bug when a black picture for about 10 or more sec. was displayed
and it change fast to a bright seq.than you can see
for about 1.5 sec. that the picture is very bad.
may you can see how this will look here.
first the good one and than the one with the bug.







all in all the lumis have the better picture quality especially when sim2
can remove this filtering
that cause that faces are look as they remove all the details.

i know some one that have such a christie hd6km and he think the
measurment was not right when jason did it but
now as this unit have about the same nubers it seams that this
is normaly for this model at least at the moment.

Hi Wolfgang, just to correct we all thought Jason did it quickly, and not accurately and without the proper measuring equipment, including Jason. I never thought Jason did not do the correct measurement .

I am trying to have mine measured immediately as the CR level you found is quite disturbing
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post #299 of 371 Old 01-28-2009, 04:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

Thanks Wolfgang. I would be interested to hear how that one scene where you found brightness compression on the truck with the Lumis, looks with the Christie. Other than the bug you mentioned above, do you see pumping with the iris on this one?

Thanks,
Darin

darin

i not have the lumis anymore and the christie was alreay back in the box.

no pumping only this bug i post the picture i can see at many places
in a movie.
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post #300 of 371 Old 01-28-2009, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
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art

yes that proves that uhp lamp pr. can have very good xenon like color if
the pr. manufacturer know how to do it.

i had the sim2 5000 also with me and i remember very nice color.

seams that sim2 know how to do it.
the 3000e than the 5000 and now the lumis!

oh btw i not realize since today that you have far more muscles
than i have
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