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Sim2 Lumis 3 Chip DLP little Test

53K views 371 replies 50 participants last post by  Technology3456 
#1 ·
i got yesterday the sim2 lumis 3 chip dlp pr.

that get a lot of attention after alan and cm get

the units and report about it.


the unit i have is like the others not a series unit

but a unit that have some news inside the 2 other units not

have.

its a good runing enegineiring sample not for sale only for demo.


optic is t2.


a technician from sim2 was with me.



i measure all numbers in the biggest

picture the optic can do.








i found 1900 center lumen at d 65.


cr. is 18000:1 with db on and 5300:1 with db off.


color looks very good right out the box but i am sure a real

perfect calibration will give a better result but may cost 5% light out

as the pr. was very good already.

the pr. have the software inside to calibrate it perfect.

its nice to see how good this uhp lamps can get.


convergence is not to good.

in the center almost perfect left about 0,75 out red and

right is 1 pixel out also red.

also top and down red is out by 0,75 pixels.


beside "pixel to pixel" all other aspect ratio settings show big over scan.


so number wise this unit is behind the 2 units cm and alan have.




it was told from sim2 to me that there are some reasons that are.


-this unit have a new road integrator and therefore the cr. and light out

numbers

are about 25% lower than the 2 other units.

this will change with the delivery of the series units and they will

put new parts inside that match better with the new road integrator.


- the manual iris is not working at all so we simply dont know in what

position

it is at the moment.


- last but important no one know how many hours the lamp have but we guess

between 300-500.

sad that they reset the lamp timer that show 1 hour but this lamp runs

since

long time at sim2 lab.



more important as counting numbers is how the picture looks.





I NOT LIKE SCREEN SHOTS AS I POST MANY TIMES HERE.





as you can see in the pictures we have a jvc rs20 and a lumis at the 7m

screen at the same time.

both display a about 3m wide picture simultaneous.

i measure the on off cr. from the rs 20 with 26000:1 (iris open for max.

light out)

but the lumis is more than double as bright even when you dim the lamp to

min. down

when you have db on.


i watch about 1 hour long Casino Royal and i can say that only some very few

sequences

the rs 20 is on pair with the "visible cr." (with the eye) the lumis show.


in 99% of all material the lumis beat the jvc in cr.(visible) because of

much higher ansi cr. this unit have.

(guess the lumis have close to 1000:1 ansi cr.)


light out wise the jvc is far behind the lumis and sharpness 3d looking all

this show the lumis in a

very very high quality much better than the jvc.


for the first time ever since i sale my g90 stack i saw i picture with a

digital pr. that have no haze on.

very clear even in very dark sequences.


and this even with the lower number compare to the 2 other units



i can keep this pr. till monday morning so i will do some other tests

as well.


i think this pr. is a big step up in picture quality and when sim2 hold

there promise that

the series unit will be have the cr. and lumen the 2 units alan and cm have

this unit is a must have pr. when you can afford it.


it should have enough light to drive a 1.0 gain screen till to 5m wide

if the room is dark.

that gives you when the series units have 2200 lumen around 14 ftl with a

new lamp.


sad for me is that the light out is not what i need to drive my big 7m

screen.


as i like it bright i need around 7000 better 9000 lumen to have my goal at

bigger than 27 ftl.


but lets see.....
 
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#278 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill /forum/post/15668699


Thanks, CM. I guess what I wanted to ask, was whether or not one expected a new 1-chipper (presumably a successor to the 3000e) that had all the new pq advances of the Lumis (other, of course, than 3 chips), that would have the higher CR, though of course not the brightness.

I think that its an absolute certainty that the Lumis technology will migrate in both directions of the price range.


I think were also getting close to the last generation of PJs where CR has any real meaning.
 
#279 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer /forum/post/15667971


I think it only fitting to open an Italian wine at this premiere. Perhaps a Casanova di Neri Brunello di Montalcino Tenuta Nuova 1997. Or a nice Barolo. But which movie - Dark City, Blade Runner or The Dark Knight?



Anyway, I patiently await this new projector to start shipping!!

Well, certainly '97 was a great year for Brunellos. The di Neri was no exception. The Banfi Poggio Riserva '97 (below) is a favorite of mine... '99 Castello Banfi sitting next to it is not so bad either
... but a little Louis XIII is not a bad addition as well..
.

 
#281 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray /forum/post/15659630


Christy: Didn't you report that a CineDigitar worked with a C3X? I felt the CineDigitar is simply too small to use with these projectors. The prime is just too recessed and the beam size too large at the lens. It may fit but if it does, it will just barely and you may have edge effects from the borderline vingetting. Perhaps if one "stuck it in the hole", but then you would be very limited on tilt, yaw, etc. tunability. Or if you were at the long end of a T3, maybe. It would still be too close for comfort I believe.

it worked up to 11 feet (2.34:1) on a c3x 1080p with a T2 lens. When it got larger than that it started having vignetting and internal reflections. I could get a passable image up to 12 feet with tweaking the angle of the the lens.
 
#282 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christy Warren /forum/post/15669216


it worked up to 11 feet (2.34:1) on a c3x 1080p with a T2 lens. When it got larger than that it started having vignetting and internal reflections. I could get a passable image up to 12 feet with tweaking the angle of the the lens.

Thanks, but there is a piece of info missing. For the 11ft 2.34 width (I presume width), what was the throw distance? As for the tweaking lens angle, there is really only one "right" place, unless you are ok with unbalanced pinchshion, etc.
 
#283 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray /forum/post/15669266


Thanks, but there is a piece of info missing. For the 11ft 2.34 width (I presume width), what was the throw distance? As for the tweaking lens angle, there is really only one "right" place, unless you are ok with unbalanced pinchshion, etc.

The room was 20 feet long, so throw was 18+ feet.


Just in case, remember that TR is computed based on 16:9 equivalent


Christy
 
#284 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christy Warren /forum/post/15669494


Just in case, remember that TR is computed based on 16:9 equivalent

Yes, I know, I work with them a lot
Still I am surprised you could get a CineDigitar to work (properly) with a 2.15 TR on a C3X. Isco IIIL doesn't have a lot of wiggle room with it and aperature is much, much larger than the Cinedigitar. I don't want to take the thread OT but thanks for the answer. Best, Scott
 
#285 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine /forum/post/15668767


I think that its an absolute certainty that the Lumis technology will migrate in both directions of the price range.


I think were also getting close to the last generation of PJs where CR has any real meaning.

Sounds good, CM. So if I hold onto my RS20 for 3 yrs, say, I may be tempted to try a new technology if something exciting has emerged by then.
 
#286 ·

Quote:
Sounds good, CM. So if I hold onto my RS20 for 3 yrs, say, I may be tempted to try a new technology if something exciting has emerged by then.

I agree. It is good to see the continued advances in performance of projectors at all levels. I have finally taken down my G90 and replaced with the RS20. Both are great projectors with trade-offs. The Lumis looks like a fabulous projector with less trade-off. I am glad it wasn't announced a few months ago when I pre-ordered the RS20 or I would have had a very difficult price/performance decision to make. At this point, although the Lumis looks to be the best available for my application, I am quite happy with my purchase. Of course at some point I will be tempted to upgrade and it is good to know that the technological improvements will be substantial.
 
#287 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by howdydoody /forum/post/15670453


I agree. It is good to see the continued advances in performance of projectors at all levels. I have finally taken down my G90 and replaced with the RS20. Both are great projectors with trade-offs. The Lumis looks like a fabulous projector with less trade-off. I am glad it wasn't announced a few months ago when I pre-ordered the RS20 or I would have had a very difficult price/performance decision to make. At this point, although the Lumis looks to be the best available for my application, I am quite happy with my purchase. Of course at some point I will be tempted to upgrade and it is good to know that the technological improvements will be substantial.

I compared the RS20 to my C3X1080 and all I can say is that you have a fantastic projector.
 
#288 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W. /forum/post/15661816


I think it is useful even without dynamic technologies. The RS1 doesn't use dynamic technologies but the contrast ratio takes a nose dive above 2% APL scenes. I think the graph of contrast ratios from low APL through ANSI is useful for every projector and display technology made as it gives you an overall picture of what the display is capable of.


Take the lumis with DB turned off, it starts at an on/off of 5K:1 and ends up at 1k:1 at ANSI. Take the RS20, it starts with an on/off up to 42k:1 and ends up at 250:1 at ANSI. What the graph will tell us is where the crossover point is. I suspect on DCI machines the crossover from 2,500:1 to its ANSI is very low in the APL range compared to the RS20, and that is why the DCI machines can hold their own (contrast-wise) even with such a low on/off contrast ratio compared to the RS20.


It would be a worthwhile exercise to take an RS20, Lumis, and DCI machine and do such a graph (Lumis DB on and off) and see what it looks like. I think it would be very enlightening and could explain a lot of what we are seeing in the visual results.


Of course there is far more to a projector than just contrast, but this would at least provide some insight to those that preach on/off contrast as being the end all of display technology.

I couldn't have said it better myself. It would be very interesting to see the contrast results from the RS20, Lumis and a DCI machine directly compared using the same benchmark. I plan on measuring the RS20 but others will have to measure the Lumis and DCI machines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital2004 /forum/post/0


exactly

different machines different use different "clients" different home theaters:

big giant screens with punchy images imply tons of brigthness. the domain of the LUMIS or much more expensive machines.

see attached file.

recent lcd barely bright enough for a 200-220cm screen

Nice diagram! Yes it clearly shows the turf differences between the Lumis and RS20.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn /forum/post/0


I know in your contrast thread it appeared that there was an issue comparing dynamic contrast with native that translated well into on screen performance ?

Initially there was some drama where it was felt that using full white (100%) patterns didn't show the full benefit of dynamic technologies because dynamic technologies render most of their benefit to shadow detail. So I came up with another methodology and second set of test patterns designed to complement the earlier graph and this new method captures what happens from 0-100 IRE and pretty clearly shows the strengths and weaknesses of native vs dynamic. As an example, the first graph in the link below shows the VW50 iris on/off compared to an RS1 for example:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post10631504


One can see how much benefit the iris and dynamic gamma add to contrast and in what ranges. This graph and the contrast vs APL graph complement each well in my opinion. To be clear though there is no issue with the data that is measured. Each suite of test patterns can be directly applied to native and dynamic technologies alike and directly compared to one another. Data is data. It's the interpretation of the data where issues can arise. Both graphs tell us a tremendous amount of information and much more than ANSI or on/off, but they still don't tell everything.
 
#289 ·
Wolfgang,


There has been a lot of discussion about the use of DB in the Lumis and speculation that there is no BC. Is it possible for you to display the test pattern below on the Lumis?

http://public.csusm.edu/kai/mark/avs...0low%20APL.gif


This is a 1080p 20 step greyscale test pattern from 0-100 IRE in 5 IRE steps using very small rectangles, so that the overall APL is very low. When viewed on the Lumis the image should be very dark which should engage the iris and DB and thereby provide some strong clues as to what happens with the final image gamma displayed on the screen. Any BC will immediately be noticeable by a merging of one or more of the rectangles.
 
#290 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray /forum/post/15670193


Yes, I know, I work with them a lot
Still I am surprised you could get a CineDigitar to work (properly) with a 2.15 TR on a C3X. Isco IIIL doesn't have a lot of wiggle room with it and aperature is much, much larger than the Cinedigitar. I don't want to take the thread OT but thanks for the answer. Best, Scott

hi

very much time Schneider releases a lens a bit larger thanthe Cinedigitar

we all know the longer throws reduce brigthness capacity also.
 
#291 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen /forum/post/15671181


Wolfgang,


There has been a lot of discussion about the use of DB in the Lumis and speculation that there is no BC. Is it possible for you to display the test pattern below on the Lumis?

http://public.csusm.edu/kai/mark/avs...0low%20APL.gif


This is a 1080p 20 step greyscale test pattern from 0-100 IRE in 5 IRE steps using very small rectangles, so that the overall APL is very low. When viewed on the Lumis the image should be very dark which should engage the iris and DB and thereby provide some strong clues as to what happens with the final image gamma displayed on the screen. Any BC will immediately be noticeable by a merging of one or more of the rectangles.

Mark, I think there will be some BC somewhere. I cant see otherwise tbh. It will be a question of how much, where and when and how noticeable.


Wolfgang actually posted a couple of images that showed some.
 
#292 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma /forum/post/15668078


CM,

I was carefull not to mention about financial situation at wolf although I was suspecting that, I guess I am not as candid as you.

I would like to start a discussion on why we were made to believe until yet that a xenon bulb can only display a good picture.

Any comments.... anyone!

Ash

This subject was covered a lot in a thread on the 3000 plus forum some time back . One of the dscussions centered around xenon being more true in color than UHP and it is but then the subject of filtering was added which totally changed the landscape as to the color reproduction differences between the two.


Art
 
#293 ·
Regarding xenon vs UHP, there should be no difference in color performance for Rec 709 content, with three exceptions. The spectrum of xenon and UHP for a specific color within Rec 709 will be different, but should look the same.


The three exceptions are warm up requirement, stability, and response to dimming. Xenon requires no warm up for accurate color while UHP does. I don't know what this requirement is, but I am guessing about 20 minutes. UHP will require more frequent calibration because it will drift with age while xenon hardly drifts at all. The last is what happens when the lamp is dimmed. This could be a problem with UHP, but needs to be measured to be sure.


For content with a much larger color gamut than Rec 709, xenon is clearly better. Some think that this type of content will be available to us soon and others don't.
 
#295 ·
i got the christie hd6km today and test it.


thank you norman for let me see this unit and i wish you

a soon recover.


short here the result.






cr. is with iris off only arround 1600:1 and with dynamic iris 8700:1.


color is not as good as the lumis.


the pitures was made with a canon 5d mk1 camera full manual control and

i use the same settings to do this pictures.

the barco had a nd filter in front and both pr. had 31 ftl at the screen.

screen size was 5m.


first the christiehd 6km than the barco cinema dp 2000.







may you should go back to page number 5 post 99 where i ask

" witch is witch" and compare how close my barco cinema unit is to the

sim2 lumis.

thats this time not the case.


color with the christie sure can get better when you did a calibration but

i doubt that cr. can be improved.




good thing about this christie is that the convergence is very good.

just up in the left there is red out about a half pixel

rest of the screen arround 0,25 pixel and almost perfect in the center.


the details in the face from this women in casino rojal

the christie show as good as my barco cinema dlp.

a clear advantage over the lumis.


the christie is bigger than the lumis and the noise level is

of course more as it have with about 5100lumen i measure at

d65 with 2 new lamps mutch more power.

you can hear the iris working inside a bit.


their is a bug when a black picture for about 10 or more sec. was displayed

and it change fast to a bright seq.than you can see

for about 1.5 sec. that the picture is very bad.

may you can see how this will look here.

first the good one and than the one with the bug.








all in all the lumis have the better picture quality especially when sim2

can remove this filtering

that cause that faces are look as they remove all the details.


i know some one that have such a christie hd6km and he think the

measurment was not right when jason did it but

now as this unit have about the same nubers it seams that this

is normaly for this model at least at the moment.
 
#296 ·
Thanks Wolfgang. I would be interested to hear how that one scene where you found brightness compression on the truck with the Lumis, looks with the Christie. Other than the bug you mentioned above, do you see pumping with the iris on this one?


Thanks,

Darin
 
#297 ·
Wolfgang,

It looks like serious gamma issues with that last shot.Also as you said the color should be similar to your Barco with calibration.


There are surprisingly similar results in that frame between your projector and mine oceans away and different cameras despite Mercury vs Xenon, of course on a much much smaller screen.



 
#298 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer /forum/post/15679201


i got the christie hd6km today and test it.


thank you norman for let me see this unit and i wish you

a soon recover.


short here the result.






cr. is with iris off only arround 1600:1 and with dynamic iris 8700:1.


color is not as good as the lumis.


the pitures was made with a canon 5d mk1 camera full manual control and

i use the same settings to do this pictures.

the barco had a nd filter in front and both pr. had 31 ftl at the screen.

screen size was 5m.


first the christiehd 6km than the barco cinema dp 2000.







may you should go back to page number 5 post 99 where i ask

" witch is witch" and compare how close my barco cinema unit is to the

sim2 lumis.

thats this time not the case.


color with the christie sure can get better when you did a calibration but

i doubt that cr. can be improved.




good thing about this christie is that the convergence is very good.

just up in the left there is red out about a half pixel

rest of the screen arround 0,25 pixel and almost perfect in the center.


the details in the face from this women in casino rojal

the christie show as good as my barco cinema dlp.

a clear advantage over the lumis.


the christie is bigger than the lumis and the noise level is

of course more as it have with about 5100lumen i measure at

d65 with 2 new lamps mutch more power.

you can hear the iris working inside a bit.


their is a bug when a black picture for about 10 or more sec. was displayed

and it change fast to a bright seq.than you can see

for about 1.5 sec. that the picture is very bad.

may you can see how this will look here.

first the good one and than the one with the bug.








all in all the lumis have the better picture quality especially when sim2

can remove this filtering

that cause that faces are look as they remove all the details.


i know some one that have such a christie hd6km and he think the

measurment was not right when jason did it but

now as this unit have about the same nubers it seams that this

is normaly for this model at least at the moment.

Hi Wolfgang, just to correct we all thought Jason did it quickly, and not accurately and without the proper measuring equipment, including Jason. I never thought Jason did not do the correct measurement
.


I am trying to have mine measured immediately as the CR level you found is quite disturbing
 
#299 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 /forum/post/15679357


Thanks Wolfgang. I would be interested to hear how that one scene where you found brightness compression on the truck with the Lumis, looks with the Christie. Other than the bug you mentioned above, do you see pumping with the iris on this one?


Thanks,

Darin

darin


i not have the lumis anymore and the christie was alreay back in the box.


no pumping only this bug i post the picture i can see at many places

in a movie.
 
#300 ·
art


yes that proves that uhp lamp pr. can have very good xenon like color if

the pr. manufacturer know how to do it.


i had the sim2 5000 also with me and i remember very nice color.


seams that sim2 know how to do it.

the 3000e than the 5000 and now the lumis!


oh btw i not realize since today that you have far more muscles

than i have
 
#301 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX /forum/post/15668555


Jim Burns wrote a letter explaining that "due to the current economic condition other courses of action were worth pursuing".


Well CM paint a wolf effigy on the side of the LUMIS as a first kill reminder of the projector wars of 2009.
"Too busy building projectors" to sell people here on these hush boxed Christies.


A letter?
 
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