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post #1 of 371 Old 01-23-2009, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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i got yesterday the sim2 lumis 3 chip dlp pr.
that get a lot of attention after alan and cm get
the units and report about it.

the unit i have is like the others not a series unit
but a unit that have some news inside the 2 other units not
have.
its a good runing enegineiring sample not for sale only for demo.

optic is t2.

a technician from sim2 was with me.


i measure all numbers in the biggest
picture the optic can do.







i found 1900 center lumen at d 65.

cr. is 18000:1 with db on and 5300:1 with db off.

color looks very good right out the box but i am sure a real
perfect calibration will give a better result but may cost 5% light out
as the pr. was very good already.
the pr. have the software inside to calibrate it perfect.
its nice to see how good this uhp lamps can get.

convergence is not to good.
in the center almost perfect left about 0,75 out red and
right is 1 pixel out also red.
also top and down red is out by 0,75 pixels.

beside "pixel to pixel" all other aspect ratio settings show big over scan.

so number wise this unit is behind the 2 units cm and alan have.



it was told from sim2 to me that there are some reasons that are.

-this unit have a new road integrator and therefore the cr. and light out
numbers
are about 25% lower than the 2 other units.
this will change with the delivery of the series units and they will
put new parts inside that match better with the new road integrator.

- the manual iris is not working at all so we simply dont know in what
position
it is at the moment.

- last but important no one know how many hours the lamp have but we guess
between 300-500.
sad that they reset the lamp timer that show 1 hour but this lamp runs
since
long time at sim2 lab.


more important as counting numbers is how the picture looks.




I NOT LIKE SCREEN SHOTS AS I POST MANY TIMES HERE.




as you can see in the pictures we have a jvc rs20 and a lumis at the 7m
screen at the same time.
both display a about 3m wide picture simultaneous.
i measure the on off cr. from the rs 20 with 26000:1 (iris open for max.
light out)
but the lumis is more than double as bright even when you dim the lamp to
min. down
when you have db on.

i watch about 1 hour long Casino Royal and i can say that only some very few
sequences
the rs 20 is on pair with the "visible cr." (with the eye) the lumis show.

in 99% of all material the lumis beat the jvc in cr.(visible) because of
much higher ansi cr. this unit have.
(guess the lumis have close to 1000:1 ansi cr.)

light out wise the jvc is far behind the lumis and sharpness 3d looking all
this show the lumis in a
very very high quality much better than the jvc.

for the first time ever since i sale my g90 stack i saw i picture with a
digital pr. that have no haze on.
very clear even in very dark sequences.

and this even with the lower number compare to the 2 other units

i can keep this pr. till monday morning so i will do some other tests
as well.

i think this pr. is a big step up in picture quality and when sim2 hold
there promise that
the series unit will be have the cr. and lumen the 2 units alan and cm have
this unit is a must have pr. when you can afford it.

it should have enough light to drive a 1.0 gain screen till to 5m wide
if the room is dark.
that gives you when the series units have 2200 lumen around 14 ftl with a
new lamp.

sad for me is that the light out is not what i need to drive my big 7m
screen.

as i like it bright i need around 7000 better 9000 lumen to have my goal at
bigger than 27 ftl.

but lets see.....
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post #2 of 371 Old 01-23-2009, 09:46 AM
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Thanks Wolfgang ! This really is looking consistant with Alan and CM.

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post #3 of 371 Old 01-23-2009, 09:48 AM
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Nice work!

It is hard to tell from the picture... Is there any problem getting an ISCO III lens up close to Lumis's len? Does the chassis of the projector interfere??


So, it sounds like with a 1.3 gain 14 ft wide (4.5 meter) microperf, I should have a enough light if it is not zoomed...

Thanks!

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #4 of 371 Old 01-23-2009, 09:49 AM
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Looks like I have find my next PJ.. Thanks guys, Alan, CM, Wolfgang... Great review.. I will put off the JVC acquisition I was contemplating...

Frantz
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post #5 of 371 Old 01-23-2009, 09:49 AM
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I'm in Naples (Fla) right now and SIM2 is nearby with a Lumis (talked to rep)... I might want to take a drive...

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #6 of 371 Old 01-23-2009, 09:59 AM
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I can't move on it any time soon, but in your opinion Wolfgang, would the Lumis be a good combo for an ISCOIII and an AT 2.35 screen that's 16' wide? Thanks
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post #7 of 371 Old 01-23-2009, 10:08 AM
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Tkx for this great review.
Have you tried playing some sequences with DB off to assess the benefit of Dynamic black.
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post #8 of 371 Old 01-23-2009, 10:20 AM
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Mayer your theater is starting to look like mine with cables and boxes all over from testing. I need to give it a good cleaning soon.




Regarding questioning the use of the Isco 3 with the Lumis it works just fine with plenty of aperture that allows for it to be placed a few inches away from the Lumis and it still works fine.








.
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post #9 of 371 Old 01-23-2009, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Nice work!

It is hard to tell from the picture... Is there any problem getting an ISCO III lens up close to Lumis's len? Does the chassis of the projector interfere??

I had no problem with an ISCOIII.

Sim2 design with them in mind from day 1.

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post #10 of 371 Old 01-23-2009, 11:11 AM
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Wolfgang, thanks for posting.

If you are at 1900 lumen after 300-500 hours, I'd guess that your unit would even be brighter than Alans 2242 lumen. Mine was just under 2100, but had over 100hrs run

Good to see that the production units will have higher contrast. On that note....If your iris is not being powered, it should be fully open. If that's the case then your CR would be 20k. The 25% will restore that to Alans number.

I have to agree with your overall conclusion. It certainly is the most engaging image I have yet seen.

I cant wait to see this technology migrate, both upwards and downwards in the price range.

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post #11 of 371 Old 01-23-2009, 01:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE_COW_IS_OK View Post

Tkx for this great review.
Have you tried playing some sequences with DB off to assess the benefit of Dynamic black.

yes i did.

i cant see any decrease in picture quality
so i let now always db on.

seams db not change the picture when the picture is bright only when its
dark.

its a big increase in 3d looking and have mutch better blacks.

so far i cant see any bugs or the adaptive system working.
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post #12 of 371 Old 01-23-2009, 01:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post


I cant wait to see this technology migrate, both upwards and downwards in the price range.

me too
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post #13 of 371 Old 01-23-2009, 02:50 PM
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Wolfgang

Thank you for your detailed report, this projector sounds like a winner, pushing SOTA in this pricepoint and technology. I'll be awaiting my T2 anxiously!
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post #14 of 371 Old 01-23-2009, 03:06 PM
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Count me in. :-)
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post #15 of 371 Old 01-23-2009, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

a technician from sim2 was with me.


i measure all numbers in the biggest
picture the optic can do.







i found 1900 center lumen at d 65.

Her center is pretty hot at D65!!!

Is she the technician from Sim2? Does she stay with the projector? Or does she have to go back to Sim2?

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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post #16 of 371 Old 01-23-2009, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

I have to agree with your overall conclusion. It certainly is the most engaging image I have yet seen.

Really, even more so than the HT5000? This definitely seems like the pj to beat.

Thanks for the screenshots Wolfgang, I think the relative intrascene contrast and lumen output between the 2 projectors is very telling.

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post #17 of 371 Old 01-23-2009, 05:08 PM
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Very interesting comparison. As has been discussed many times, a side by side comparison will nearly always favor the brighter projector even though there are many other aspects to picture quality. This is because the perceived brightness is always impacted by the dynamic iris of the eye. Obviously the Lumis can drive a larger screen size. For a smaller screen size in a light controlled environment, it would be most interested to perform a blinded comparison between the projectors. Obviously the Lumis would likely be judged sharper, but I'm not sure perceived contrast comparisons would be the same as in this side-by-side review.
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post #18 of 371 Old 01-23-2009, 07:40 PM
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Wolfgang,

The images from the RS20 looks much to dark, almost like it's miscalibrated. Even my lowly single chip DLP looks much better. Can you check to see if it performing properly.

No offense, but I'm sure no RS20 owners would calibrate to produce outdoor daylight scenes that looked that dark . That's mid afternoon sun....

JC
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post #19 of 371 Old 01-23-2009, 08:41 PM
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I am sure the RS20 is properly calibrated, just looks dark in comparison to the Lumis.

Phil
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post #20 of 371 Old 01-23-2009, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Free View Post

I am sure the RS20 is properly calibrated, just looks dark in comparison to the Lumis.

I agree, the camera's the one setting the exposure, I'm sure if it was set with exposure settings to make the RS20 brighter or appear 'normal', the Lumis would appear with severely blown out whites.

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post #21 of 371 Old 01-23-2009, 08:58 PM
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I am sure the Lumis looks better than the RS20, but to be fair, you shouldn't even watch them side by side like that, because your eye does the same thing that the camera does, and the RS20 will look much dimmer, than it actually is, side by side with the Lumis. Probably better to switch back and forth, and give your eyes time to adjust.

What I like to do, is to switch projectors, while keeping my eyes shut for a minute or so, then open them. It is kind of like cleansing the pallete, between tasting two wines.

Phil
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post #22 of 371 Old 01-24-2009, 12:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gino AUS View Post

Really, even more so than the HT5000? This definitely seems like the pj to beat.

For some installs, the HT5k may give more light with its constant apperture. Its optics also offer a slightly cleaner image. Overall, however, the Lumis provides a better image.

A word of caution to prospective HT5k owners who may now look to the Lumis...........it may be prudent to wait. I have a feeling that the HT5k will be up-gunned pretty soon.

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post #23 of 371 Old 01-24-2009, 12:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by howdydoody View Post

Very interesting comparison. As has been discussed many times, a side by side comparison will nearly always favor the brighter projector even though there are many other aspects to picture quality. This is because the perceived brightness is always impacted by the dynamic iris of the eye. Obviously the Lumis can drive a larger screen size. For a smaller screen size in a light controlled environment, it would be most interested to perform a blinded comparison between the projectors. Obviously the Lumis would likely be judged sharper, but I'm not sure perceived contrast comparisons would be the same as in this side-by-side review.

H....Having shot them on different screens and brightness normalized, I can assure you that there is a major difference between the 2 machines Wolfgang mentions. It had nothing whatsoever to do with brightness. The contrast difference that you seem to question is very obvious indeed, in almost every scene.

A blind comparison would be pointless , and actually impossible, as it is instantly obvious, across a number of PQ metrics, which machine is which.

The 2 machines simply don't warrant direct comparison, they are simply in different markets in terms of PQ, performance and price. Thats why I didn't go into detail on my report. The only reason I used one was because it was to hand and would provide a datum by which to test contrast. A fairer comparison for the Lumis would be to other 3 chip units.

There are only a handful of people here who's eye, and opinion, I really trust and would consider bankable. I wont embarrass them by naming them, but Wolfgang is certainly one of them.

If you, or anyone else, do want more info on a comparison with the 2 PJs that Wolfgang mentions, just let me know.

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post #24 of 371 Old 01-24-2009, 02:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

Her center is pretty hot at D65!!!

Is she the technician from Sim2? Does she stay with the projector? Or does she have to go back to Sim2?

no she is since 17 years with me

oh by the way when my first daougther was burn her 3th word
she can speek after mom and dad was "beamer"
this is true no joke.


about the rs20 compare.

i use this pr. because i have one and it have a very good picture quality.
at the set up with this 2 pr. side by side yes the rs20 is dimer but
as gino aus say:
"I agree, the camera's the one setting the exposure, I'm sure if it was set with exposure settings to make the RS20 brighter or appear 'normal', the Lumis would appear with severely blown out whites."

i have such pictures but i can tell you see it with the eyes is not any problem
and show very nice the difference between them.
i hate screen shots and i did only this picture as this can give you a
impression how i make the set up.
chapter 8 from casion rojal (the model train) is the best test for it.

the lumis is the first pr. that show this sequenz without any haze.
even the rs20 have some haze on it in this seq. even if the on off cr.
was arround 40% more.

i think i forgeth to mention that the lumis have only vertical shift that works
manually and no horizontally.

the more i work with the unit the more i like it.
it will be hard for me to give the pr. back as i get use to the good
quality this pr. can offer.

nice i have the possibility to see soon a hd6km from christie that
have also db inside.
it will be interresting to see if this unit offers also such black level
in combination with high light out and a better optic.
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post #25 of 371 Old 01-24-2009, 03:08 AM
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W.Mayer
I hear you that DB on is a no brainer since it does not introduce artifacts. If we were to change the perspective. How mach is gained with DB on? Is it marginal or a big improvement. Then is this improvement only for certain scenes?
I hope the Christie will not disappoint.

Mattias Ohlson
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post #26 of 371 Old 01-24-2009, 04:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

cr. is 18000:1 with db on and 5300:1 with db off.

How exactly does DB work on this projector?
Quote:


convergence is not to good.

How good is convergence on your RS20?
Quote:


we have a jvc rs20 and a lumis at the 7m
screen at the same time.
both display a about 3m wide picture simultaneous.

That favours the brighter projector, of course. If you project pure black, the JVC measures about 1/4 of the SIM?
Quote:


light out wise the jvc is far behind the lumis and sharpness 3d looking all
this show the lumis in a
very very high quality much better than the jvc.

I hope it looks better for the price and with ANSI dominated material.
Quote:


for the first time ever since i sale my g90 stack i saw i picture with a
digital pr. that have no haze on.
very clear even in very dark sequences.

Sorry, there is haze on any 18000:1 projector independent of ANSI. It just needs the
right material to see it. But most material is mixed enoug to look hazefree indeed.
Once SIM have native On-Off like the JVC, are cheaper as now and use LED such a projector could be an option to me.
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post #27 of 371 Old 01-24-2009, 04:42 AM
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Woilfgang thanks once again. I remember vividly how great that traion shot looks on CRTs. It is very low APL with lots of detail. In fact I used that specifically as a demo before I switched out to the HT 5000.

Another is the night chase scene in Butch Cassidy (now on BD). Although you are oner ogf tyhe most trstworthy forum members on projector matter I still would love to see one myself first.

If CM is right a DB 5000 offspring might be a better fit .

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post #28 of 371 Old 01-24-2009, 04:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Woilfgang thanks once again. I remember vividly how great that traion shot looks on CRTs. It is very low APL with lots of detail. In fact I used that specifically as a demo before I switched out to the HT 5000.

Another is the night chase scene in Butch Cassidy (now on BD). Although you are oner ogf tyhe most trstworthy forum members on projector matter I still would love to see one myself first.

If CM is right a DB 5000 offspring might be a better fit .

Art

You know.. I asked the SIM2 rep here in Fla yesterday about a replacement of the HT 5000. He said, 'we just did a lot of upgrades on it' and 'their are no plans in the near future to remake the HT 5000 with similar [Lumis] technology'..

Who knows?

I didn't get a chance to see it yesterday.. weather was too nice for a 2 hr drive from my hotel..

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #29 of 371 Old 01-24-2009, 04:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

You know.. I asked the SIM2 rep here in Fla yesterday about a replacement of the HT 5000. He said, 'we just did a lot of upgrades on it' and 'their are no plans in the near future to remake the HT 5000 with similar [Lumis] technology'..

Who knows?

I didn't get a chance to see it yesterday.. weather was too nice for a 2 hr drive from my hotel..

You kind of expect reps to say this. Imagine if they went arond telling everyone "yes, we plan on releasing an HT5000 with all the new Lumis technology soon" Wouldn't the knock-on effect be that it would be harder to sell their existing Ht5K inventory? Perhaps not, Sim were openly talking about the C3X 1080 replacement for some time before it's release.

From all the praise by the learned folks here, an HT5K with the Lumis technology would be a killer machine!

Sean
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post #30 of 371 Old 01-24-2009, 05:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sierraalphahotel View Post

You kind of expect reps to say this. Imagine if they went arond telling everyone "yes, we plan on releasing an HT5000 with all the new Lumis technology soon" Wouldn't the knock-on effect be that it would be harder to sell their existing Ht5K inventory? Perhaps not, Sim were openly talking about the C3X 1080 replacement for some time before it's release.

From all the praise by the learned folks here, an HT5K with the Lumis technology would be a killer machine!

Sean

I don't disagree (sorry about the double-negative). Just repeating the conversation.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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