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Who has auditioned the Kharma Grand Exquisite 7.1 Cinema Package?

52K views 312 replies 37 participants last post by  JapanDave 
#1 ·
As we try to address the Torus based cinema rooms I have been looking for a more well rounded super high end cinema and surround offering than Dynaudio for several reasons, mainly the lack of a dedicated Confidence or Evidence Surround Speaker, the confidence 1 is ridiculously deep for side channel applications, and for years I have been asking them to build an Esotar based.


This system seems to have EVERYTHING I am looking for...



http://www.kharma.com/_images/review...io_02_back.jpg


D'appolito monoliths to flank the Torus without obnoxious side firing woofers that would excite the screen (read Arakis),this proven Torus friendly configuration can be driven with normal amplifiers, instead of the array systems that require a dedicated 7.4 channel processor probably inferior to the new TACT; D'appolito side channels that are also outfitted by my favorite type of tweeter the Diamond Tweeter (as evidenced in the top B&W's) (THE DIAMOND TWEETER REHABILITATED B&W from many years of being a Crack Whore on the street).


The sides are gorgeous and priced suitable for it's inclusion in a Moon Of Saturn. They are self powered like the center channel but only 9 inches deep, this is the form factor that is needed for on wall side surrounds.


So has anyone ever heard this system? Cause I'd like it for a 12 channel system.
 
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#77 ·
Most recording studios I've seen to use identical rear speakers, so if you want to hear what they hear as they're mixing, that's what you do. Doesn't mean they have to be expensive, just using equal drivers to the fronts.
 
#80 ·
The movie I like to use for seamless soundfield test is I Am Legend. There are many good TOTALLY immersive test scenes in the surround mix for this Dolby True HD BD like the cricket sounds in times square, the lion leaping out from behind the back left seat and the real test: the Ford Shelby GT500 spinning out and hitting traffic markers as it pulls a nice circular spin out pattern. If you are getting an absolutely seamless soundfield, you will feel as though you are in the car with each marker being hit making a completely consistent circular pattern around your room. This is a very difficult thing for a system to do correctly and on the TrueHD track very very impressive. This scene must be awesome in D-Box!
 
#81 ·
I would go with some Revel Salon2s Peter, all the way around... Oh, wait, I already did!



In all seriousness, why not Salon2s in the front and Gem2/Voice2s (if you must use monitors...) for all the surrounds? It doesn't get much more SOTA than the top of the line Revel speakers, and you don't have to spend a ton of money either...
 
#83 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by faberryman /forum/post/15729265


Why is their task different and how should a surround speaker differ from the front and center speakers?


Because they have different task. The front and center do 46 degree at front and the surround (5.1 or 7.1) have the another 314 degree. To do that with same speakers, like in the front, you will get a very bad sense of surroundsound IMO. That's why THX recommend dipole speakers, but I prefer another kind of speakers and use more (6 or 8 surroundspeakers for 5.1-7.1).
 
#85 ·
Cool room but I would think the speaker right beside the sofa would be too much "here I am" for me. I absolutely hate it when I can locate the surroundspeaker.


The one I will get is somewhat odd. It looks like this (but I will have another color)



Then you place them something like this




That give a superb surroundfield that both sound in focus and clear but also "diffuse" in the sense that you cannot hear that the sound come from "that" speaker.
 
#86 ·
What a thread...


I few comments. I thought that 80% of the dialouge came from the center not 80% of all audio content. If I'm wrong at least I've learned something today.


Peter, what about PHC or PMC? Those big boys from PMC I bet could hit 120+dB. If you can hide the stuff what about JBL or KLIPSCH pro cinema line?


$55K for a center channel is like paying $40K for a watch. If you are Steve Wynn it's all about prestige not performance!


I was out at church for band practice (Baptist rock) and I can tell we use SPL (Sound Pressure Labs ?) arrays and SPL "runts" for stage monitor and the sound is pretty dang good. Will a $55K center sound better? Yeah but not 18 times better. Most of the cost in high end speakers is labor and the cabinet. There is no economy of scale due to limited production. Look at the PC power supply for example. Early on (early - mid 80's) they were $400today they are $15 ($12 if you buy 5 or more).


BTW I know it sounds odd that I go to church for those of you that know me and have listened to some of my off color rants about this or that. Hey without church I'd be an ass all the time now its just some of the time.
 
#87 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmiles /forum/post/15733902


Will a $55K center sound better? Yeah but not 18 times better.

But this applies to ALL things audio and most things in general. I'm not sure why it is accepted with some product categories and not others.
 
#88 ·
I think that given the recommended best practice of matching your LCR speakers for an HT, you will be looking at paying roughly half the cost of the L&R pair for the single center channel. Whether one considers this worthwhile for a center is a different issue, IMHO.


Of course using the same speaker for the LCR assumes you are going AT (or having a very high screen!
) If you are going for dedicated HT you are more likely to be going AT than someone who is primarily two channel, with an occasional movie sound requirement.


Sean
 
#89 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmiles /forum/post/15733902


......

Peter, what about PHC or PMC? Those big boys from PMC I bet could hit 120+dB. If you can hide the stuff what about JBL or KLIPSCH pro cinema line?

.......

I have to agree, PMC do great professional and home speakers, and I am a fan of their ATL.

The largest home version (BB5 XBD) has 124db spl at 1m with amp rating up to 1kw.
http://www.pmc-speakers.com/product....de=view&pid=44


Cheers

DT
 
#90 ·
With the caveat that the prices for these speakers sound insane, even to an audiophile fool like myself....let's be careful about the rationalizations we use.


Dismissing the price of, for instance, the Kharma center channel, shouldn't be done on the basis that "all the center channel does is produce the dialogue." (I'm speaking as someone who works in film sound, here). The center channel is at least as important as the L/Rs because a significant amount of sound effects are produced via the center channel! From the film mixing stage standpoint, tweaks to frequency of individual sounds here and there aside, there is typically no global attenuation of the frequencies going to the center channel (e.g. no one is removing bass from the center of of the movie sound-stage in the center channel). Of course most people use a sub to reproduce the deepest bass frequencies, not only for their center channel but often to help out the L/R etc. But the point is that center channel information is as rich as the L/R info frequency-wise.


FWIW, how the center channel is mixed often depends on the mixer (and often the dialogue mixer at that - they tend to be the "king" at the mixing console). Dialogue mixers are usually looking for dialogue intelligibility and they'll deal with center channel issues in different ways. For instance if you've got a mono clock tick in a scene some dialogue mixers will tell the FX mixer to get it out if the center channel and pan it to a side channel. Others will be fine with it in the center channel but just ask it be lowered in volume, others may not mind the original volume etc. But a lot of effects end up in the center channel (as well as background tracks that spread through L/C/R).


So the center channel tends to have an even harder job to do than the L/Rs insofar as it must simultaneously produce sound effects AND produce most of the dialogue. To ensure the richness of the effects AND the dialogue is reproduced both articulately and naturally - simultaneously from a single mono speaker - is no small task of that mono speaker.


That is of course talking strictly about movie sound track reproduction.


Cheers,
 
#91 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness /forum/post/15743903


With the caveat that the prices for these speakers sound insane, even to an audiophile fool like myself....let's be careful about the rationalizations we use.


I agree. Too many think that price is statment about the soundquality but I would say that the price and soundquality have VERY little to do with each other. The price is only what the producer think he can get and wants for the product. It has almost nothing to do with soundquality, something we can often see in Stereophiles measurements.


Interesting post, thanks
 
#92 ·
Excellent post R.H.


I have no way of validating this except to say that in my experience as an audiophile.. The reproduction of the size of an audio event is not a matter of volume or simply frequency response... "small" speakers even when aided by a sub and even when able to play very loud sound well like small speakers... I am not sure I have ever heard ANY small satellite/sub combo sound as authoritative as say a Dunleavy big box or a Magnepan or a MAXX3.. It seems thus that for the ultimate in Multichannel reproduction one needs a full range set... We can dance all around the fact but I am sure the best results are brought by FULL RANGE radiators all around... if you need more bass dynamic bring on subs but the idea of "mains" and lesser, "center" and "surrounds" is a convenience not the best way to enjoy MC.

We should not take a manufacturer lack of a serious center channel offering for the center channel lack of importance in the surround reproduction... for example Wilson line up is lacking in this sense and I am sure they know it... The Watch ( is that their top-of-the line? center) is a stopgap. That someone uses it and is satisfied with it does deter from the fact that it is sorely lacking compared to something like the Dynaudio Confidence Center , let alone the formidable looking (and sounding) Evidence Center ...this, a quick audition whether you like Dynaudio sound or not will tell you... which bring us back to the price of the center it is actually does more than the "mains" ... how would you price the speakers that does ...more? if not ...more? Current practices and attitudes preclude centers that are more expensive than half of the mains, it shouldn't be...

'MAX sorry about the Kharma.. You have not yet replied to the suggestion of going PRO Dynaudio ? or PRO ATC or PRO Genelec? I think they would better fit your SPL requirements with low THD...
 
#93 ·
YES EXCELLENT POSTS, GUYS.

Frantz/Mike and others who suggested going pro,


What bothers me of all the pro stuff is that it comes with it's own electonics and dsp.


In addition Horn based systems and the JBL synthesis does something very wrong in a TORUS room,a torture chamber (no need for Extraordinary Rendition there
).


Quite frankly heretofore I have had a great comfort level with Dynaudio.




Just yesterday that comfort level went up by quite a bit, and it is very timely that you mentioned the confidence center because a 40% improvement in the overall front sound stage at Prometheus was effected by a small change. As part of a new plan to fill all cavities with acoustical cotton I installed a new platform to elevate the cc center channel some 3 inches yesterday. We noticed that one of the speaker termination pins had been fatigued, after a long drive to Straghtwire and back once the pins were replaced, and the speaker was lifted we were able to positin it in the highestmost and forwardmost position. A small dip switch in the back of the speaker was set to UNDER TV setting. LO AND BEHOLD not just the center imaged better the whole sound stage clicked , more musical, more dynamic, more transparent, louder? It is amazing what this particular center did when properly positioned.


BTW setting that switch from over to under Elevated the image (much like the old tilt thing at meridian) some 18 inches inside the screen area, just a bout were the screen lip zone is.


To be honest thus far I had been reticent to recommend ANY speaker under a Torus screen and my initial results with the improperly mounted cc had only confirmed my fears. Here I go again >ABOUT FACE
 
#96 ·
I can tell you that any system I've heard that uses DEQX with the proper filter frequencies and slopes will play stupidly loud *without* fatigue. Many speakers play loud without going completely crazy, but most are still fatiguing because of cone resonances. Lots of multi-channel amps and at 3 or 4 outboard DSP units, but far better than an expensive passive system because they can do low level resolution and high level resolution without the typical compression. A 7.7 Tikandi system would be about $80K. A 7-channel Maestro system might be $150K and I guarantee each will trounce the Kharmas when it comes to dynamic capability, both micro and macro.
 
#99 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall /forum/post/15749891


I can tell you that any system I've heard that uses DEQX with the proper filter frequencies and slopes will play stupidly loud *without* fatigue. Many speakers play loud without going completely crazy, but most are still fatiguing because of cone resonances. Lots of multi-channel amps and at 3 or 4 outboard DSP units, but far better than an expensive passive system because they can do low level resolution and high level resolution without the typical compression. A 7.7 Tikandi system would be about $80K. A 7-channel Maestro system might be $150K and I guarantee each will trounce the Kharmas when it comes to dynamic capability, both micro and macro.

I am not qoing to DEQX as I use tact. The idea I have no problem with, but before I go into tri-amping with tact I am going to go multichannel 12. I need some sort of consistent reference point as I move forward so it will be analogue x-over until I accomplish 12 channels.
 
#100 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX /forum/post/15749264


And those are a greatly respected ESOTAR workhorse. Can I stack 3 or 4 of those to create an array on the side of the screen? Without comb filtering Galore?

Well, if it's about SPL, maybe take this puppy instead:



http://www.dynaudioacoustics.com/Def...193&AjrNwsPg=1


Their website says: These speakers are normally supplied as an active four-way with a choice of digital crossovers and power amplifiers

...So it sounds like you might be able to order it with a passive crossover and without amps if desired.


Specs claim Typical peak SPL 133dB @ 2m, 2 cabinets driven ...which I think works out to 136dB @ 1m with one cabinet...I assume that might be including room reinforcement from soffit-mounting. Tweeter described as a custom high powered version of the ESOTAR T330 designed to reproduce stunning distortion-free transients of up to 1000 watts. The Kharma in contrast claims maximum SPL 120dB (peak program).
 
#101 ·
Is there any reason not to consider PMC?

Their top line speakers (both MB2 and BB5) are sold either as a pro or home consumer, and they are well respected in the pro industry (look at key clients), and also consumer.

Also they are over 20k if that helps



Just curious if there is a reason they are omitted.

Cheers

DT
 
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