Who has auditioned the Kharma Grand Exquisite 7.1 Cinema Package? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 313 Old 02-09-2009, 08:08 AM
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Back to the OP, don't know if this has been posted but Valin made the effort to travel the world to hear 4 different rooms with the Grand Exquisite Kharmas installed: http://www.avguide.com/blog/kharma-g...te-loudspeaker
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post #182 of 313 Old 02-09-2009, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terry j View Post

There is a whole bunch of them from the HK site, but that does sum up my recollection (if it's repeated in more than one paper that is).

I took a look at the Harman site and you're right: the same conclusion is repeated in more than one paper. While there, I found the Toole papers you were thinking of. If anyone wants to peruse them for reference:

"Loudspeaker Measurements and Their Relationship to Listener Preferences: Part 1"

"Loudspeaker Measurements and Their Relationship to Listener Preferences: Part 2"

Sanjay
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post #183 of 313 Old 02-09-2009, 08:37 AM
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BTW, Syswei, I won't stop listening to studio monitors and will eventually find one that I really like, but pro gear is a smaller audience and sells for a lot more - no bargains. And they focus on different things - self powered, heavy, often metal boxes, controlled dispersion (which I do not like) for a single listener in a typically heavily damed room, wall/soffit mounting etc, etc, etc. The goals are just different, aside from basic accuracy. In fact, sometimes I think they focus so much on getting a straight line that nothing else matters to them. I'm sure there are exceptions, still waiting to find it though. I don't want to mix a recording, I want to enjoy it.

Relax John, between your lines I sence some frustration. You are not alone...You are not the only dealer that has not fully understood the science or the first to struggle in the attempt of linear and distortion free audio reproduction. I do feel with you and be asured, whenever you need aid, at least I'm here to help you out.

One point I do however take seriously of what you have written above, and that is that most often we are mixing ultimate sweet spot listening with big audiences home cinema (which also should have room treatment), with listening distances beyond comprehension by regular means. There professional speaker still have their strong points. However, to throw any high end stuff into the corner seldomly is a good basis for that multi seat experience many are looking for.

We actually should shift the discussion back into this direction, if the K. speakers are the ones Peter should install, to achive his ultimate audio 10 seater....I have more than doubts.

Cheers, Andreas
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post #184 of 313 Old 02-09-2009, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

BTW, Syswei, I won't stop listening to studio monitors and will eventually find one that I really like, but pro gear is a smaller audience and sells for a lot more - no bargains. And they focus on different things - self powered, heavy, often metal boxes, controlled dispersion (which I do not like) for a single listener in a typically heavily damed room, wall/soffit mounting etc, etc, etc. The goals are just different, aside from basic accuracy. In fact, sometimes I think they focus so much on getting a straight line that nothing else matters to them. I'm sure there are exceptions, still waiting to find it though. I don't want to mix a recording, I want to enjoy it.


I haven't auditioned speakers yet for an HT, but actually I'm more likely to go passive consumer than active pro. However, you are just plain wrong when out say that pro speakers offer "no bargains". In some cases a company's pro line may be priced priced in-line with their consumer line. But more often, pro gear is priced lower. Take the (pro) Focal Solo 6 Be, msrp $2400/pr. EXACT same drivers as the (consumer) Focal Electra 1007 Be, msrp $4000/pr (or maybe higher now, the price is from 2007). And with the pro version, amplification is thrown in for free, despite the 40% lower price! It is because pro gear on average presents better value that I like to bring up the subject on these forums, so that the unaware can consider pro alternatives and save themselves some money.
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post #185 of 313 Old 02-09-2009, 09:11 AM
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Well, okay, but that's a pretty rare example and probably has a lot more to do with the regular Focals being so overpriced.

John
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post #186 of 313 Old 02-09-2009, 09:21 AM
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JBL makes great pro speakers, don't they? Same research used in other top of the line Harman speakers, IIRC.

I had the pair I bought in highschool for almost 10 years!

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post #187 of 313 Old 02-09-2009, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Well, okay, but that's a pretty rare example and probably has a lot more to do with the regular Focals being so overpriced.

Audiophile consumer gear is OFTEN overpriced, and imo that includes the Revel Ultima2 line you carry. You can look at Dynaudio, Adam, and others, and find pro speakers priced less than consumer speakers from the same company. I challenge you to find just ONE counter-example, where a company's pro piece of equipment is pricier than a comparable consumer piece.
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post #188 of 313 Old 02-09-2009, 09:54 AM
 
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Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

JBL makes great pro speakers, don't they? Same research used in other top of the line Harman speakers, IIRC.

I had the pair I bought in highschool for almost 10 years!

Interesting

I have an audiophile friend who has made a lifelong hobby of collecting JBL speakers. He has at last count over 500 fully working pairs (all different). He has been offered a huge sum to sell them. He has also been contacted by the Smithsonian Institute. His house is beyond belief. The estimated value of this collection is in the stratosphere
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post #189 of 313 Old 02-09-2009, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by oneobgyn View Post

Interesting

I have an audiophile friend who has made a lifelong hobby of collecting JBL speakers. He has at last count over 500 fully working pairs (all different). He has been offered a huge sum to sell them. He has also been contacted by the Smithsonian Institute. His house is beyond belief. The estimated value of this collection is in the stratosphere

Ob,

Does your friend have a website showing his collection? Would love to see pictures.

Sean
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post #190 of 313 Old 02-09-2009, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oneobgyn View Post

Interesting

I have an audiophile friend who has made a lifelong hobby of collecting JBL speakers. He has at last count over 500 fully working pairs (all different). He has been offered a huge sum to sell them. He has also been contacted by the Smithsonian Institute. His house is beyond belief. The estimated value of this collection is in the stratosphere

Have you ever thought of spending a few bucks to get the guy some "company". Sounds like he needs it.

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post #191 of 313 Old 02-09-2009, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oneobgyn View Post

Interesting

I have an audiophile friend who has made a lifelong hobby of collecting JBL speakers. He has at last count over 500 fully working pairs (all different). He has been offered a huge sum to sell them. He has also been contacted by the Smithsonian Institute. His house is beyond belief. The estimated value of this collection is in the stratosphere

I absolutely loved the ones I had in high school. They brought me years of great sound for the price...

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post #192 of 313 Old 02-09-2009, 12:05 PM
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Yes, JBL pros are very nice. The pro monitors are widely used, strong brand recognition as does Genelec e.g. When you see that JBL's best bass drivers are still made of paper cones, you know exactly what you can think about some of those wierd cone material discussions and their significance in the total end result....

Cheers, Andreas
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post #193 of 313 Old 02-09-2009, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syswei View Post

Audiophile consumer gear is OFTEN overpriced, and imo that includes the Revel Ultima2 line you carry.

It's all relative. The Revels measure better and use a more scientific design than most $100k speaker I've seen and the parts quality (and cost) is just as good or better. But sure, get rid of the fancy cabinet and you could probably build and sell them for $10K.
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You can look at Dynaudio, Adam, and others, and find pro speakers priced less than consumer speakers from the same company. I challenge you to find just ONE counter-example, where a company's pro piece of equipment is pricier than a comparable consumer piece.

Here you go - the NHT M-00 retails for $500 (down from $600) and is basically a powered NHT SuperZero ($250/pr and a 15 year old design) YET it still gets very high marks from musicians and recording engineers compared to other products in that range. But we could sell musicians the much newer, better PSB Alpha B1 and a Sherbourn amp for the same price and do even better for them. The local pro acoustics/studio guru here specifically recommends the Alpha and NHT SuperOne (and later iterations) over all the powered pro monitors for budget recording/mixdown purposes.

I'm not talking about audiophile lunacy here, I'm talking about what happens when you compare pro audio speakers to highly regarded speakers in the $250-$5000/pr range.

OTOH, if I were doing what Peter does - jamming speakers in corners and/or a few inches off the floor, I would probably do some of the better pro active speakers that have the more directed dispersion and sound contours for those kind of positions and then add Audyssey processing. But we do the free-standing speaker thing and so the accuracy of these speakers works plenty well without contours, controlled dispersion or extra processing (from Soundstage) -


John
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post #194 of 313 Old 02-09-2009, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

It's all relative. The Revels measure better and use a more scientific design than most $100k speaker I've seen and the parts quality (and cost) is just as good or better.

Still overpriced relative to the consumer KEF Reference series, for instance the 205/2 vs Studio2; most people would consider the 2 lines to be in the same class of performance and cosmetics. Comparing the Ultima2 line to a pro offering isn't that easy, since there aren't any direct comparables in the Harman family. But it would be an interesting experiment to take the JBL pro products I referenced earlier, find comparably-priced products in the Revel lineup (Performa or Concerta or whatever you could get for the same dollars), and then do some listening tests.

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Here you go - the NHT M-00 retails for $500 (down from $600) and is basically a powered NHT SuperZero ($250/pr and a 15 year old design)

Rather lame, John, are you using a circa 1994 price for the NHT (forgetting inflation?), or a price for used product off ebay? And then forgetting to add in the price of an amp? I stand by the original point...on average, pro offers better value, though there are some cases where pro and consumer are priced comparably.
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post #195 of 313 Old 02-09-2009, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by syswei View Post

Still overpriced relative to the consumer KEF Reference series, for instance the 205/2 vs Studio2; most people would consider the 2 lines to be in the same class of performance and cosmetics.


Are there a big difference between 205/2 and 203/2? The 203/2 ahve no bass at all and don't sound that hot according to me. The Studio2 sound much better IMO.

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post #196 of 313 Old 02-09-2009, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by syswei View Post

Still overpriced relative to the consumer KEF Reference series, for instance the 205/2 vs Studio2; most people would consider the 2 lines to be in the same class of performance and cosmetics.

We'd have to disagree. The 205/2 is almost as expensive and doesn't have the much more exotic drivers of the Studio, regardless of which you prefer. By that standard, I'd say the PSB Synchrony makes the 205/2 overpriced and we could go from there.
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Comparing the Ultima2 line to a pro offering isn't that easy, since there aren't any direct comparables in the Harman family. But it would be an interesting experiment to take the JBL pro products I referenced earlier, find comparably-priced products in the Revel lineup (Performa or Concerta or whatever you could get for the same dollars), and then do some listening tests.

Yes, but I'm talking about the performance of stuff like Genelec or PMC or whatever ("the leaders") to the better consumer stuff in the same range.
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Rather lame, John, are you using a circa 1994 price for the NHT (forgetting inflation?), or a price for used product off ebay? And then forgetting to add in the price of an amp?

They were $220/pr in 1994, $250/pr when they were discontinued. Amps are cheap and easy.
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I stand by the original point...on average, pro offers better value, though there are some cases where pro and consumer are priced comparably.

Better value *until* you consider the sound quality and then the value ratio drops notably. I've had a dozen people come in over the last couple of years to pick up PSB Alphas because they 'can't find anything as good for less than twice the price' and even when you add the amp, they're still less. YMMV.

John
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post #197 of 313 Old 02-09-2009, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by NIN74 View Post

The 203/2 ahve no bass at all and don't sound that hot according to me. The Studio2 sound much better IMO.

The Studio2 also costs 2.7 times the 203/2. I know that some people who have auditioned the comparables, the 205/2 vs Studio2, have come away owners of the 205/2. I imagine there are others who have audtioned both and bought the Studio2. Hence my suggestion that they are in the same class of product, performance and cosmetics-wise; yet the Studio2 still costs I think 33-45% more than the 205/2.
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post #198 of 313 Old 02-09-2009, 01:38 PM
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What you imply is very misleading and irritating, but I do not want to sound rude and maybe I just misunderstand what you mean. If one reads the above without knowledge, it almost implies there could be certain speakers that are "bend" in such a away that their inroom FR becomes linear. That does not exist, also as all rooms are different. That is why one is forced to treat the listening room. Placement in the room is also different from user to user, influencing the picked up room gain in relation to wavelength.

That is why active designs are so neat, as they offer in some form most often on axis FR compensations in their designs, via dip switches room gain on bass can be shelved or cut off. This will not help off axis power response and other room problems (the time domain, which is reverb as well as room modes/resonances/waterfall).

hey, I'm all for active!! I have a tri amped deqx active system..using pro drivers no less

I don't want to imply that the room can 'bend' the response to a flat curve, the room usually 'destroys' the 'perfect' curve of the speaker.

What I was saying is that once (for example) we use something like audyssey that will give us a measured flat response at the lp after taking into account the room, ie 'counteract' the usual thing we see in room of the bass being generally higher than the treble to some degree, and we then measure the resulting speaker response in a chamber (just like every speaker to date has been measured to see what it's response is) that I think we would NOT see the desirable 'flat response', but rather a rising response in the treble (else how could it measure flat in the room?)

Such a response, if guaged by the standards of all speaker measurements to date, would probably not be regarded as accurate.

It's just a theory, and a starting point for discussion, that's all.

Not meant to raise the hackles of anyone at all.
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post #199 of 313 Old 02-09-2009, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by syswei View Post

The Studio2 also costs 2.7 times the 203/2. I know that some people who have auditioned the comparables, the 205/2 vs Studio2, have come away owners of the 205/2. I imagine there are others who have audtioned both and bought the Studio2. Hence my suggestion that they are in the same class of product, performance and cosmetics-wise; yet the Studio2 still costs I think 33-45% more than the 205/2.

Do you have any significant data that would backup the proposition that the purchases were based on equal performance rather than just simply affordability?

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post #200 of 313 Old 02-09-2009, 01:48 PM
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I'm not so sure how you equate the Kefs with the Studio2s dollar for dollar. The Studio2s have Beryllium tweeters and titanium midrange/bass drivers rather than cheaply and easily made plastic and/or paper. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's not going to be the last word in resolution with drivers like that, not to mention the tweeter having a moving horn slapped around it. I'm not sure how the comparison is even relevant to the discussion of studio monitors versus high-end speakers.

John
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post #201 of 313 Old 02-09-2009, 01:53 PM
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Quote:


don't want to imply that the room can 'bend' the response to a flat curve,

I thought you wanted to imply the speaker needs to be pre-bend to fit the room, as a flat speaker is not flat in the room, which would never work for all rooms. Sorry, for any misunderstanding.

Cheers, Andreas
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Well I havent heard the Kharmas but I have just heard one hell of a system comprising of Coldmachines favourite Genelecs. The System was in a room 28x22x12 and had 3x HT324A Fronts, 4x AOW312 Surrounds and 1 HTS6 Subwoofer. Holy S***! did it sound good. I have heard big setups before and have a fairly good one myself but these were brilliant. It has made me seriously consider throwing out my existing system and bringing the Genelecs in. Easily the most impressive Home Theater I have heard.
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post #203 of 313 Old 02-09-2009, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

Do you have any significant data that would backup the proposition that the purchases were based on equal performance rather than just simply affordability?

Hard data survey data or something?...of course not. I did ask rydenfan his reasons for his choice of the 205/2, and his answer didn't include price; but then, if one were to ask the same question of everyone who had made the same choice, maybe not all the answers would be complete and ingenuous. I do view the Stereophile review and measurements of the 207/2 to be overall about as good as those for the Salon2, fwiw; on the measurement side, I think neither is perfect and each has different plusses and minuses that for me, put them at about the same level of goodness. I haven't auditioned either yet myself.

I'd be interested in your thoughts on the KEFs if you auditioned them before going with the Salon2s.
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post #204 of 313 Old 02-09-2009, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

I'm not so sure how you equate the Kefs with the Studio2s dollar for dollar. The Studio2s have Beryllium tweeters and titanium midrange/bass drivers rather than cheaply and easily made plastic and/or paper. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's not going to be the last word in resolution with drivers like that, not to mention the tweeter having a moving horn slapped around it. I'm not sure how the comparison is even relevant to the discussion of studio monitors versus high-end speakers.

We digressed into a discussion of whether the Ultima2 line represented good value. But I'll drop it as I'm re-learning that you'll never let go of a point, whether you're right or wrong, and I'm getting weary of it. Maybe you should switch to trying to convince iampaddy that he's wrong and that what he heard can't represent good sound, since pro gear can't sound good (according to you), especially Genelec since you heard a setup once in one particular room, and didn't like it.
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post #205 of 313 Old 02-09-2009, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Andreas View Post

Yes, JBL pros are very nice. The pro monitors are widely used, strong brand recognition as does Genelec e.g. When you see that JBL's best bass drivers are still made of paper cones, you know exactly what you can think about some of those wierd cone material discussions and their significance in the total end result....

SO IT'S SETTLED THEN.....

Behold the torture Chambre.

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post #206 of 313 Old 02-09-2009, 03:27 PM
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I never said that the Ultimas were a good value except in relation to even more expensive speakers.

John
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post #207 of 313 Old 02-09-2009, 05:52 PM
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All this from 'MAX asking if anyone has AUDITIONED THE Kharma System

Frantz
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post #208 of 313 Old 02-09-2009, 06:57 PM
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All this from 'MAX asking if anyone has AUDITIONED THE Kharma System

We are all one trick ponies FrantzM...

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post #209 of 313 Old 02-09-2009, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

Do you have any significant data that would backup the proposition that the purchases were based on equal performance rather than just simply affordability?

Que, I dont know if I qualify for significant data but my final three audition speakers were the Dynaudio Sapphires, Revel Studio2's, and the KEF 205/2's. My ultimate choice was the KEFs and it had absolutely nothing to do with price. FWIW, the Studio2's are 16K and the 205/2's in high gloss are 14K so I dont imagine there is too much price factor going on between these two speakers.

I also have a friend searching for a speaker in this price class and came away with the KEFs as well. Although I am sure it is equally easy to find people who chose another speaker...
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post #210 of 313 Old 02-09-2009, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rydenfan View Post

Que, I dont know if I qualify for significant data but my final three audition speakers were the Dynaudio Sapphires, Revel Studio2's, and the KEF 205/2's. My ultimate choice was the KEFs and it had absolutely nothing to do with price. FWIW, the Studio2's are 16K and the 205/2's in high gloss are 14K so I dont imagine there is too much price factor going on between these two speakers.

I also have a friend searching for a speaker in this price class and came away with the KEFs as well. Although I am sure it is equally easy to find people who chose another speaker...

Indeed, that was not the data I was looking for.

"It is worse still to be ignorant of your ignorance."
-- Saint Jerome (374 AD - 419 AD)

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