Sim2 Lumis Owners Thread - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 1962 Old 03-26-2009, 12:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE_COW_IS_OK View Post

PJs:
Marquee 9500LC 9" PJ: 1000(Static) 1000(motion) CRT
C3x1080: 1080(Static) 550(motion) 3 Chip DLP
11s2: 1080(static) 500(motion) 1 Chip DLP
RS2: 1080(static) 450(motion) LCOS

I find this all very interesting, and explains why i find motion in CRT much more appealing.

Are there any digital projectors which do better than 550?

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post #272 of 1962 Old 03-26-2009, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE_COW_IS_OK View Post

PJs:
Marquee 9500LC 9" PJ: 1000(Static) 1000(motion) CRT
C3x1080: 1080(Static) 550(motion) 3 Chip DLP
11s2: 1080(static) 500(motion) 1 Chip DLP
RS2: 1080(static) 450(motion) LCOS

How noticeable would you say these differences are?

For example, is the difference between 450 and 500 noticeable?
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post #273 of 1962 Old 03-27-2009, 12:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsbeck View Post

How noticeable would you say these differences are?

For example, is the difference between 450 and 500 noticeable?

2 points: Even if 2 displays measures close, there motion can still look different. For example if I taker the example of a moving line on an RS2 and 11S2. Both scores almost similar but with the 11s2, instead of seeing 1 line moving, you get to see 2 lines with a trailing 1 of lower intensity. ON the RS2, You don't only see "duplicate" but the lines loose sharpness and get fatter as if they are blurring. you also loose tonal details. The 11s2 had the sharper look but was less pleasant to see IMO since It was harder for me not to pay attention to it(Maybe because motion produced sharper artifact?!). Those numbers I gave are just indication. Best thing is to get FPD Disk and check for yourself. on the Disk they have different scenes with moving trains, cars, texts, faces... Just play them, and on pause you know what you are missing.

Sam.
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post #274 of 1962 Old 03-27-2009, 01:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gino AUS View Post

I find this all very interesting, and explains why i find motion in CRT much more appealing.

Are there any digital projectors which do better than 550?

Not to my knowledge. The C3X is best digital PJ so far I saw and measured (Still below my expectations...). I know some plasma/LCD direct view measures better. but some cheat with interpolation. Something I avoid rapidly. By the way, I was never aware of this problem until few months ago when my CRT broke down and started to look for a digital to replace.
Now that I saw what nice brighntess/contrast/colors can do a pic, it will be even harder to find a PJ.
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post #275 of 1962 Old 03-27-2009, 01:46 AM
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Is any similar data published for other 3chip DLP machines (HT5000, DPI 1080-250, etc) for comparison?

Sean
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post #276 of 1962 Old 03-27-2009, 01:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sierraalphahotel View Post

Is any similar data published for other 3chip DLP machines (HT5000, DPI 1080-250, etc) for comparison?

Sean

So far motion handling have been taboo with digital displays.
Not until Plasma manufactures realised there superior performance in this area compared to LCD they decided to release a disk like FPD and awarness momentum started picking up. Marketing was always the driving force behind specs choices.... rarely consumer preferences.
I am not aware if similar tests were made for other machines but few years ago I read an article where the US army was swapping their stack of CRT PJ with digital for use used in flight simulators. They decided to go with Christies or barco and added a custom made shutter in front of the lense to improve motion. IF only I can find where to get such shutter, I will place it in front of the C3x and be VERY happy for the rest of my life.... or until 3D becomes main stream
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post #277 of 1962 Old 03-27-2009, 02:57 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Audiodynamics View Post

My poor joke was derived from a real situation though. One of my clients thought there was an issue with his Sim2 (no less), and it turned out to be an Exit sign he had installed about a month after we had finished his room.

The last time i went to the cinema there was a big red exit sign switched on near the front and near the screen and they were using one of the latest Christie digital cinema projectors. When ever there was a dark scene in the movie the exit sign illuminated onto the screen and there was a large square area on the right of the image which was brighter than the rest of the image and it was extremely annoying to me. It looked like part of the image was dull and washed out because of the sign.

Health and safety apparently says they must have the exit sign illuminated in our cinemas.

I just don't want to go back to the cinema anymore because of things like that.
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post #278 of 1962 Old 03-27-2009, 06:37 AM
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When I build HTs, I generally install a dimnable by the remote lighting controls exit sign over each door. We buy the boxes at home Depot, take them apart, spay paint them black, reassemble and install. Rarely would such a sign be in the vacinity of the screen and the normal lighting set for viewing is barely lit for the signs. For critical viewing and test measurements the exit lights can be switched off. We also install an emergency light for illumination of the bat cave during a power failure. Guests could get scared otherwise because our theaters are normally so dark.

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post #279 of 1962 Old 03-27-2009, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

The last time i went to the cinema there was a big red exit sign switched on near the front and near the screen and they were using one of the latest Christie digital cinema projectors. When ever there was a dark scene in the movie the exit sign illuminated onto the screen and there was a large square area on the right of the image which was brighter than the rest of the image and it was extremely annoying to me. It looked like part of the image was dull and washed out because of the sign.

Health and safety apparently says they must have the exit sign illuminated in our cinemas.

I just don't want to go back to the cinema anymore because of things like that.


If you noticed it in a commercial cinema, then imagine how bright and annoying it was in my clients HT. Fortunately, it was a novelty item and the fix was to shut it off during movie playback. In a commercial theater, the Exit signs must remain illuminated.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

When I build HTs, I generally install a dimnable by the remote lighting controls exit sign over each door. We buy the boxes at home Depot, take them apart, spay paint them black, reassemble and install. Rarely would such a sign be in the vacinity of the screen and the normal lighting set for viewing is barely lit for the signs. For critical viewing and test measurements the exit lights can be switched off. We also install an emergency light for illumination of the bat cave during a power failure. Guests could get scared otherwise because our theaters are normally so dark.


Hi Mark,

You're absolutely right that emergency lights are a must. As for Exit signs, we don't install them. The client installed the exit light after we had finished and vacated the job. Great idea about painting it black. It's amazing how the most mundane things can become a distraction or worse, have an effect on PQ.
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post #280 of 1962 Old 03-30-2009, 04:24 PM
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having an HD6KM here for testing and showing client, the comparison with the Lumis is interesting (LUMIS wins on contrast, on off and ansi).
the HD6KM has to be installed in a sealed booth (ventilation) and needs improvement in contrast, especially on off. the gap with the Lumis is large...(lumis black bars are magnificient).
The LUMIS gives you a giant plasma /TV tube contrast/black level. Lumens depend on movie format and screen size.You "feel" the power of the Christie, it sails on big screens.
but not on black level , "inkiness". I much prefer 2000lumens with 20.000:1 on off and excellent ansi vs 4000lumens with 2500:1 and very good ansi.
the Christie however we tested had excellent convergence (both chips and lens).
colorimetry was quite nice too. the nrs of settings, memories, controls is ENORMOUS.
it feels solid, excellent remote too.
looks and features, IF it had the on off ot the Lumis and it's ansi too, would make it a killing machine. But I'm of the school of deep deep blacklevels and contrast ratio (something you never have in theaters btw).
Giant punchy but with massive contrast ratio image is something to praise and look for.
and those prices (35-55,000) it has to come with great lens and chips convergences too.
(unique very impressive sets of test screens witht the Christie btw).
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post #281 of 1962 Old 03-30-2009, 05:41 PM
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can't stress either how cleaner the Lumis was compared to the C3X 1080 (video or dithering noise).
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post #282 of 1962 Old 03-30-2009, 06:58 PM
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Can you post some screenshots for fun? Thanks Greg
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post #283 of 1962 Old 03-30-2009, 07:02 PM
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After owning a SXRD (Qualia) for all these years every time I saw a DLP it had a very digital look. This included the high projectors such as the Runco VX55, Christies and Digital Projection Titan reference and above etc.
The projector which found least digital looking was the Wolf at CEDIA.
The Lumis (which I now own) does not have a digital look at all... I did not expect it to trump the Qualia n terms of having a film like look but it does...
It is a awesome looking picture.
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post #284 of 1962 Old 03-31-2009, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital2004 View Post

having an HD6KM here for testing and showing client, the comparison with the Lumis is interesting (LUMIS wins on contrast, on off and ansi).


Thanks for your report, very interesting! I saw both machines and on both some phenomenons (I've got one of them atm). I would be interested to know the following:
What lenses on both pj's?
Did you use the recommended settings on the 6K-M (adaptive to 0)?
How about depth of field on both pj's?
And how do you think about comparing faces that are displayed on the screen, esp in terms of sharpness and naturalness?
If I remember it correct you've got a big screen so this testing should be a real fun

In case this gets OT you can pm me, would be nice!

Norman
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post #285 of 1962 Old 04-01-2009, 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital2004 View Post

having an HD6KM here for testing and showing client, the comparison with the Lumis is interesting

Thank you Digital2004 for your mail and all the fast, accurate and very competent anwers!

Norman
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post #286 of 1962 Old 04-01-2009, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE_COW_IS_OK View Post

PJs:
Marquee 9500LC 9" PJ: 1000(Static) 1000(motion) CRT
C3x1080: 1080(Static) 550(motion) 3 Chip DLP
11s2: 1080(static) 500(motion) 1 Chip DLP
RS2: 1080(static) 450(motion) LCOS

(PS:I owned all of these PJs for at least 3 weeks. Some numbers are from memory since I didn't write them down.)

Direct View:
My living room 32" sony CRT: 600(Static) 600(motion)
720p Panasonic Plasma: 700(Static) 500(motion)
Work Viewsonic LCD: 1080(static) 300(motion) ouch!


That is an interesting test. Where can you get this disc?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gino AUS View Post

I find this all very interesting, and explains why i find motion in CRT much more appealing.

Are there any digital projectors which do better than 550?

I agree and probably explains why I still prefer CRT even though I could never articulate it. Peter's 3-chips installs are about the best I have seen in the digital world and something I could definitely live with. I would need to do a back to back comparison to see how much of a difference I actually see.

On the SIM itself, it sounds better than the other ones I have seen. It has been awhile, but the ones I saw left something to be desired. Hopefully this is a step in the right direction. I just realised where is coldmachine to defend Sims honor.

My new favorite game is Save The Titanic

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post #287 of 1962 Old 04-01-2009, 11:18 PM
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That is an interesting test. Where can you get this disc?


http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview....B-1003&ref=myp
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post #288 of 1962 Old 04-02-2009, 03:40 AM
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Having tested the Christie, one has to realise how important it is to have HUGE CONTRAST RATIOs (on off and ansi) and brigthness (good brigthness).
contrast ratio on off alone: not enough (you need ansi too)
brigthness alone: great for outdoor scenes, without clipping whites, but too much and it hazes dark scenes (a fex exceptions: DARK KNIGHT has incredible blacks, image and black bars).
ansi contrast alone: not enough (for dark scenes) but paramount for daylight/mid daylight and shiny lights in night scenes.
SIM2 has achieved major breakthrough: high on off, high ansi, very good brigthness (up to 4meters scope screens (300-330 16/9), black rooms).

all projectors with 500-800ansi lumens should be limited to 250cm screens imho.

(note: screens being plain or mp, not woven, to not lose too much lumens...)
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post #289 of 1962 Old 04-02-2009, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
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I agree and probably explains why I still prefer CRT even though I could never articulate it.

Ah, then what would you call that ?

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post #290 of 1962 Old 04-02-2009, 11:11 AM
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Ultimately it still comes down to price for performance to some degree.
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post #291 of 1962 Old 04-02-2009, 11:33 AM
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I'm stil unhappy with the case design in terms of the fact that the case forces 1" inch air gap between ISCO 3 and the Projector lens. It is a shame they chose not to adress this issue in the Lumis. Sim2 also has a very casual attitude, with many areas, for such an expensive projector. Nonethless, I look forward to picking one up.... Seems the competition is lame...
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post #292 of 1962 Old 04-02-2009, 03:44 PM
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Just a question for you guys, if anyone knows the answer. I noticed this japanese test disc is in 1080i. Shouldn't its patterns be in 1080p for it to provide reliable motion resolution numbers, since the rest of our blu rays are in that format? If the number on the Lumis is true, then it's quite disappointing for such an expensive machine. I really hope this is not the case.
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post #293 of 1962 Old 04-02-2009, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JlgLaw View Post

Yup, FedEx just dropped one off here. I'll be testing it tomorrow.

Jim

Are you a dealer ?

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post #294 of 1962 Old 04-02-2009, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
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Are you a dealer ?

Art


Sorry Art, I don't think I ever mentioned that among my business interests, one is an A/V and HT install company. (So indirectly, Yes.)

I'm in the process of setting up the Lumis for a more direct comparison to my HT5K.


Jim
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post #295 of 1962 Old 04-02-2009, 07:52 PM
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What the heck Cineramax you look 10 years younger You doing HGH?

I know Sonneborn is on it Fountain of youth... 191 amino acids.
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post #296 of 1962 Old 04-03-2009, 02:15 AM
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Cmax: interesting. the optical smoothness or vertical compression of the lens reducing noise ?
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post #297 of 1962 Old 04-03-2009, 03:20 AM
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Peter,
Greetings from Beijing....
I have observed on my Lumis that 2:35, images with isco 3 in place are more film like than 16:9 without isco in place.
So I agree with you on this although not completely as the 16:9 picture is pretty darned good too.
(BTW price tag for my theater is much above what you think.... And I have a M6 convertible 'the' ultimate driving machine. . . . . not ai 318)
I have not seen your Super kontrast DCI so I cannot make a comment on that.
I have seen every other projector in every price range.... and the Lumis beats all including the 185 k Meridian 8k. And this comment based on how the picture actually looks, not specs.
Couple it with fantastic installation ease, quiet and reliable operation..... and a competitive price it is hard to beat.
And is this not what progress all about? In a couple of years we should expect 10 k price range projectors to beat Lumis!!
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post #298 of 1962 Old 04-03-2009, 03:41 AM
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Cost was no object... in my decision. Before I saw the Lumis, I wanted to get the Wolf DCI but the company is no longer in business.
Reliability is huge... for the few occasions I have time to enjoy my room... It would be a bummer if the projector was down.
I wonder how reliable a modded Barco is?
Ash
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post #299 of 1962 Old 04-03-2009, 03:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by humax View Post

Just a question for you guys, if anyone knows the answer. I noticed this japanese test disc is in 1080i. Shouldn't its patterns be in 1080p for it to provide reliable motion resolution numbers, since the rest of our blu rays are in that format? If the number on the Lumis is true, then it's quite disappointing for such an expensive machine. I really hope this is not the case.

I am not sure why it is so disappointing. The_Cow showed the Lumis motion resolution only bettered by a CRT front projector, all other front projectors he compared it to had lower motion resolution. In fact, even a plasma TV had lower motion resolution.

So, by itself a motion resolution of 550 lines is disappointing, but when you consider it appears to be the higher than any other projector except CRT (single-chip DLP, LCOS, and I am sure LCD, albeit only a few units were tested), it is relatively quite impressive.

I would like to find out the motion resolution of other projectors in its class, and at the top end of the consume class for each projector technology.
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post #300 of 1962 Old 04-03-2009, 04:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JlgLaw View Post

Sorry Art, I don't think I ever mentioned that among my business interests, one is an A/V and HT install company. (So indirectly, Yes.)

I'm in the process of setting up the Lumis for a more direct comparison to my HT5K.


Jim

Great ,thanks !

Art

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