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post #151 of 2035 Old 03-17-2009, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

I am actually thinking of going 100 inch diagnol since the Lumis T1 offers a short throw of 1.3. That may allow me to deal with room contstraints and still throw a 100 inch diagnol image.

I don't know the furmula you are using but if I assume that the numerator is the light output and the denominator being the square footage of the screen......then....

At 92 inch : 1800\\25= 72 lumens

At 100 inch: 1800\\29.5 = 61 lumens


Can't I close the iris, or adjust something to get less light output? I don't want to watch the sun!

The iris will only reduce your output by around 10%.

If you go down the NDF route, make sure you get a high quality one or you will wreck your ANSI cr

Dont forget, you can get screens with less than unity gain as well.

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post #152 of 2035 Old 03-17-2009, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

Could someone please comment on any differences between the PQ on the Lumis and a C3x 1080......black levels, shadow details, motion, depth & dimensionality, etc.

I will only be getting a 92 inch screen (complete light control) due to viewing distance restrictions (10 feet away feet away), so any thoughts on how PQ may compare in that environment is appreciated as well (T1 lens....about middle of the throw range, iris closed down pretty far due to the high lumen output at this distance, low lamp, etc.)

In my opinion, the differences aren't huge: Lumis is better in low lit scenes (because of the dynamic iris) and it's also much brighter, which it sounds like you don't need for a screen that size. Also, with that size screen there are other projectors that are valid alternatives.
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post #153 of 2035 Old 03-17-2009, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian_Currie View Post

In my opinion, the differences aren't huge: Lumis is better in low lit scenes (because of the dynamic iris) and it's also much brighter, which it sounds like you don't need for a screen that size. Also, with that size screen there are other projectors that are valid alternatives.

I would agree that with that size screen the C3X, not even to speak of the Lumis, is way overkill. The Marantz 11S2 should be plenty bright on a screen of that size, and most all agree it gives an outstanding pic (now with >/= 1000 ANSI CR.)
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post #154 of 2035 Old 03-17-2009, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian_Currie View Post

In my opinion, the differences aren't huge: Lumis is better in low lit scenes (because of the dynamic iris) and it's also much brighter

Have you actually own, or have you spent any significant time with, a Lumis? The low light performance is NOT simply due to the DI....Its due to the whole combination of relevant techniques. The lamp modulation is a major factor here too. The Lumis is also significantly better in brighter scenes too.

Having spent some time with a Lumis and a C3X1080 on the same screen, I would have to say the difference is significant. Those who have done the same agree.

1.The brightness difference is major.

2.The CR difference is huge.

3.The black level difference is night and day.

4.The ANSI CR is certainly noticeable.

5.The connectivity is massively better (if you need it).

6.The install flexibility is superior.

Mine was sharper, but that may simply be luck of the draw.

The C3X1080 produces a fine image indeed. The Lumis I used was simply the best image I have ever seen.

Hope this helps.

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post #155 of 2035 Old 03-17-2009, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

I am actually thinking of going 100 inch diagnol since the Lumis T1 offers a short throw of 1.3. That may allow me to deal with room contstraints and still throw a 100 inch diagnol image.

I don't know the furmula you are using but if I assume that the numerator is the light output and the denominator being the square footage of the screen......then....

At 92 inch : 1800\\25= 72 lumens

At 100 inch: 1800\\29.5 = 61 lumens


Can't I close the iris, or adjust something to get less light output? I don't want to watch the sun!

Sorry, I gave you the shorthand version...

The formula is (Lumens / Screen Area ft^2) * Screen Gain = FtL

You can find FtL recommendations in a fairly wide range. I thing SMTPE is 16FtL but that might be without film. A lot of people looking at these PJ's, myself included like a much brighter image. Once I had bright I could never go back to dim(mer). Personally I like about 25FtL, maybe more.

So as others mentioned, depending on your preferences, you may find the Lumis too bright. As CM pointed out, you can get a lower gain screen which will help some as the formula shows. I'm leery of the ND filter, too.

HTH, Scott


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post #156 of 2035 Old 03-17-2009, 10:28 AM
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Anyone tried a high end ND filter on one of these yet? Would *really* love to see soem measurments on it's effects.


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post #157 of 2035 Old 03-17-2009, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

Anyone tried a high end ND filter on one of these yet? Would *really* love to see soem measurments on it's effects.

I think it was Odyssey who mentioned that Schneider do a top notch one.

I would also be interested to see some results.

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post #158 of 2035 Old 03-17-2009, 10:59 AM
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I would imagine that if putting an excellent piece of port glass in front of the lens can be done without detriment to the image (e.g. Ash's setup), then using a high quality ND filter (B+W, Hoya, etc) could achieve similar results.

I recall that Alan was using an ND 0.9 with his-- maybe he could chime in with some measurements...
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post #159 of 2035 Old 03-17-2009, 11:11 AM
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I don't have measurements, but I think that it would be about a 10% loss of ANSI CR with a very high quality ND filter.

The best solution is to use the excess light output to improve the image. Using a 0.5 gain screen instead of a 1.0 gain can increase the ANSI CR from the screen by 50%.
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post #160 of 2035 Old 03-17-2009, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

Have you actually own, or have you spent any significant time with, a Lumis? The low light performance is NOT simply due to the DI....Its due to the whole combination of relevant techniques. The lamp modulation is a major factor here too. The Lumis is also significantly better in brighter scenes too.

Having spent some time with a Lumis and a C3X1080 on the same screen, I would have to say the difference is significant. Those who have done the same agree.

1.The brightness difference is major.

2.The CR difference is huge.

3.The black level difference is night and day.

4.The ANSI CR is certainly noticeable.

5.The connectivity is massively better (if you need it).

6.The install flexibility is superior.

Mine was sharper, but that may simply be luck of the draw.

The C3X1080 produces a fine image indeed. The Lumis I used was simply the best image I have ever seen.

Hope this helps.


I don't own a Lumis, but I spent some time with one recently.

1. Agreed.

2. Disagree. I was disapointed to find the CR wasn't much improved over the C3X1080. In fact, isn't the native CR pretty similar? Everyone is touting the high CR when you measure a checkerboard screen, but that's with DB engaged. When it's not engaged - and remember, it's 'dynamic' the CR looks to be the same as my C3X1080. High contrast isn't just desired when black is on screen. I used a lot of professional test videos that required high contrast to give the picture any sense of depth but did not necessarily involve a lot of black (e.g. close ups of fruit or wine glasses etc) and to my eyes, I was simply seeing native contrast. I've seen these same images many times on both my projector and a higher contrast projector and know the difference.

Now, if resolving the image requires a lot of black (for edges, bumpy textures etc) and there's enough black on screen for DB to be engaged, the Lumis looks smashing. So what I'm trying to point out here is that the Lumis doesn't seem to perform like a projector with high native CR.

3. From what I saw it was definitely improved and I want one myself for that reason.

4. Agreed - at least with DB engaged.

5. Agreed.

6. You got me on this one, but I'll take your word for it.


Hey, I'm not trying to say the Lumis isn't a good projector - I think it's the best you can probably get for a *huge* image; my earlier post was directed at a screen size of 92"; in my humble opinion you can do better at this size.
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post #161 of 2035 Old 03-17-2009, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian_Currie View Post

Hey, I'm not trying to say the Lumis isn't a good projector - I think it's the best you can probably get for a *huge* image; my earlier post was directed at a screen size of 92"; in my humble opinion you can do better at this size.

In what ways ?

Art


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post #162 of 2035 Old 03-17-2009, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odyssey View Post

I don't have measurements, but I think that it would be about a 10% loss of ANSI CR with a very high quality ND filter.

The best solution is to use the excess light output to improve the image. Using a 0.5 gain screen instead of a 1.0 gain can increase the ANSI CR from the screen by 50%.

Like gamelover360 I will be limited to a similarly small screen in my room. I too would prefer the excess lumens of the Lumis. I had been recommended a GrayHawk RS G3 material and while I'm far from an expert; I'm sure the image would look satisfactory.

Sean
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post #163 of 2035 Old 03-17-2009, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

I think it was Odyssey who mentioned that Schneider do a top notch one.

I would also be interested to see some results.

Well, Schneider, per se dosen't, I don't think. But, Schenider bought B+W who makes high end filters. I've used them in the past in photography work and they are nice. But I don't think there is anything particularly different from them and other high end filters (i.e. Tiffen ultra, etc.). Edmunds Optics has some high end ND filters, but none of these are designed for this task I don't think.

Anyway, would be good to know how much effect these would have.


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post #164 of 2035 Old 03-17-2009, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

Sorry, I gave you the shorthand version...

The formula is (Lumens / Screen Area ft^2) * Screen Gain = FtL

You can find FtL recommendations in a fairly wide range. I thing SMTPE is 16FtL but that might be without film. A lot of people looking at these PJ's, myself included like a much brighter image. Once I had bright I could never go back to dim(mer). Personally I like about 25FtL, maybe more.

So as others mentioned, depending on your preferences, you may find the Lumis too bright. As CM pointed out, you can get a lower gain screen which will help some as the formula shows. I'm leery of the ND filter, too.

HTH, Scott

PFL = (Projector Lumens / Screen Area in Sq.Ft.) X Screen Gain

That is what I found online....so I would be at anywhere from 30-35 ftl with a 0.5 gain screen. Is that way too high to be comfortably viewable? I do not feel like the filter route would be something I would want to do.


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post #165 of 2035 Old 03-17-2009, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian_Currie View Post

I don't own a Lumis, but I spent some time with one recently.

1. Agreed.

2. Disagree. I was disapointed to find the CR wasn't much improved over the C3X1080. In fact, isn't the native CR pretty similar? Everyone is touting the high CR when you measure a checkerboard screen, but that's with DB engaged. When it's not engaged - and remember, it's 'dynamic' the CR looks to be the same as my C3X1080. High contrast isn't just desired when black is on screen. I used a lot of professional test videos that required high contrast to give the picture any sense of depth but did not necessarily involve a lot of black (e.g. close ups of fruit or wine glasses etc) and to my eyes, I was simply seeing native contrast. I've seen these same images many times on both my projector and a higher contrast projector and know the difference.

Now, if resolving the image requires a lot of black (for edges, bumpy textures etc) and there's enough black on screen for DB to be engaged, the Lumis looks smashing. So what I'm trying to point out here is that the Lumis doesn't seem to perform like a projector with high native CR.

3. From what I saw it was definitely improved and I want one myself for that reason.

4. Agreed - at least with DB engaged.

5. Agreed.

6. You got me on this one, but I'll take your word for it.


Hey, I'm not trying to say the Lumis isn't a good projector - I think it's the best you can probably get for a *huge* image; my earlier post was directed at a screen size of 92"; in my humble opinion you can do better at this size.

Any alternatives you would recommend I research more using a 92-100 inch diagonal screen.

I want
1) no rainbows
2) great motion
3) great blacks and shadow detail
4) accurate color
5) good ability to teak picture without a gimped CMS f---ing things up

Possible....? BTW.....I am looking at a 6-8 month from now time frame to buy.


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post #166 of 2035 Old 03-17-2009, 11:56 AM
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This is literally the first time since I've been in this hobby and have seen too much light as a topic. Pretty cool really.

Art


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post #167 of 2035 Old 03-17-2009, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

This is literally the first time since I've been in this hobby and have seen too much light as a topic. Pretty cool really.

Art

...and considering the relatively low cost of the unit in question it is even cooler!

Sean
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post #168 of 2035 Old 03-17-2009, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

PFL = (Projector Lumens / Screen Area in Sq.Ft.) X Screen Gain

That is what I found online....so I would be at anywhere from 30-35 ftl with a 0.5 gain screen. Is that way too high to be comfortably viewable? I do not feel like the filter route would be something I would want to do.

I don't know how the Lumis behaves in this regard, but it's common for pj's to loose half their brightness within ~500 Hrs on the lamp. So keep this in mind, as it would bring your 30 ftL down to 15.
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post #169 of 2035 Old 03-17-2009, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

Well, Schneider, per se dosen't, I don't think. But, Schenider bought B+W who makes high end filters. I've used them in the past in photography work and they are nice. But I don't think there is anything particularly different from them and other high end filters (i.e. Tiffen ultra, etc.). Edmunds Optics has some high end ND filters, but none of these are designed for this task I don't think.

Anyway, would be good to know how much effect these would have.

It's actually Century Optics, acquired by Schneider. This is a product line for the movie and video industries.
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post #170 of 2035 Old 03-17-2009, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian_Currie View Post

2. Disagree. I was disapointed to find the CR wasn't much improved over the C3X1080. In fact, isn't the native CR pretty similar? Everyone is touting the high CR when you measure a checkerboard screen, but that's with DB engaged. When it's not engaged - and remember, it's 'dynamic' the CR looks to be the same as my C3X1080.

Ian, its not a case of disagree or not. The on/off CR is far higher, that's not open to dispute.

You also seem rather confused regarding said CR and its measurement.

Checkerboard tests are for ANSI CR, that has nothing to do with native CR or DB. The engagement of DB is not relevant to that test. ANSI cr is around 1000 on the Lumis.

The high CR numbers you seem to be referring to (20K etc) is measured with full field black and full field white, not a checkerboard. Also,there is absolutely no reason to disengage DB at all, it is artifact free. That fact is already well reported.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian_Currie View Post

I used a lot of professional test videos that required high contrast to give the picture any sense of depth but did not necessarily involve a lot of black (e.g. close ups of fruit or wine glasses etc) and to my eyes, I was simply seeing native contrast. I've seen these same images many times on both my projector and a higher contrast projector and know the difference.

The types of image you refer to, that don't involve a lot of black would not be the sort of image that a high on/off machine would excel at per se, simply based on that metric. If the image is of that type it would benefit a machine with high intra scene contrast.

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post #171 of 2035 Old 03-17-2009, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

I don't know how the Lumis behaves in this regard, but it's common for pj's to loose half their brightness within ~500 Hrs on the lamp. So keep this in mind, as it would bring your 30 ftL down to 15.

Bill,

The Lumis shouldnt drop anywhere near half if it behaves like the others.... touch wood.

SIMs drop around 25-30%. Some are actually under 20%.

The power management is a bit more sophisticated than other domestic units, hence the lamp lives normally being double.

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post #172 of 2035 Old 03-17-2009, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odyssey View Post

It's actually Century Optics, acquired by Schneider. This is a product line for the movie and video industries.


Do you have any sort of rough idea of the performance of these filters?

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post #173 of 2035 Old 03-17-2009, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

Bill,

The Lumis wont drop anywhere near half if it behaves like the others.

SIMs drop around 25-30%. Some are actually under 20%.

The power management is a bit more sophisticated than other domestic units, hence the lamp lives normally being double.

Tx, CM; didn't know that (as well as many other things).
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post #174 of 2035 Old 03-17-2009, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sierraalphahotel View Post

Like gamelover360 I will be limited to a similarly small screen in my room. I too would prefer the excess lumens of the Lumis. I had been recommended a GrayHawk RS G3 material and while I'm far from an expert; I'm sure the image would look satisfactory.

Sean

Seems like we would want a pretty low gain screen. I would think 0.5 would be great if they have it. I just saw that Stewart has some 0.7 gain screens. that would probably "do".


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post #175 of 2035 Old 03-17-2009, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

Do you have any sort of rough idea of the performance of these filters?

I have one but I have not used it. They are supposed to be very good, but I looked at the one I have recently and I am concerned about the visual reflection when looking at it. You should contact them for more information about the AR coating.
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post #176 of 2035 Old 03-17-2009, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brain sturgeon View Post


I recall that Alan was using an ND 0.9 with his-- maybe he could chime in with some measurements...

I went to a larger screen size (1 foot wider) and using a negative Grey screen from Carada. I have over 100 hours and I am showing no light loss as of yet.
Ive never encountered this before. Ash or anyone else Id be curious what you find after you put some hours on your Lumis. I am sure I will see a drop sooner or later.
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post #177 of 2035 Old 03-17-2009, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Tx, CM; didn't know that (as well as many other things).

Bill, you wear your modesty like a beautifully tailored suit.
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post #178 of 2035 Old 03-17-2009, 02:30 PM
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I own a C3X1080p for almost a year and a half and never had any problems so far.
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post #179 of 2035 Old 03-17-2009, 02:39 PM
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I believe they use the same logics as the C3X1080P and the way I did it was by activating the aspect ratio Letterbox (setting the screen control to ON) and every time I change from Anamorphic to Letterbox will send the 12v to the sled.
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post #180 of 2035 Old 03-17-2009, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

I went to a larger screen size (1 foot wider) and using a negative Grey screen from Carada. I have over 100 hours and I am showing no light loss as of yet.
Ive never encountered this before. Ash or anyone else Id be curious what you find after you put some hours on your Lumis. I am sure I will see a drop sooner or later.

I would like to avoid a filter as well. I will be at about 70 ftl....(1800/25*1) with a unity gain screen (in a completely light controlled room). Is there no way to tone down the lumen output to something below 1800 by adjusting a setting on the projector?


If I use a negative (do you mean a gain of <1) grey screen like you, I can reduce reflected light , but how negative should I go. A 0.7 gain screen would put at about 47 ftl, and then as the bulb dims I would still have plenty of ftl to play with. Flawed thinking?

Lastly, do grey screens hurt shadow detail at all....or cause color innacuracies? Thanks.


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