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post #181 of 2051 Old 03-17-2009, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

Is there no way to tone down the lumen output to something below 1800 by adjusting a setting on the projector?

Yes.

There is service procedure for this, via the supplied remote. Its normally only carried out by the engineers back in Italy. The order in which the steps are carried it is totally critical.

After the PJ is installed normally, select lamp power to minimum and close the iris fully. Ensure that the color temp is set to D65. Disengage Dynamic Black. Then select HDMI 1 as the source.

Approach your screen and carry out a focus adjustment to get the sharpest possible image. You then turn round and heave the remote straight through the primary lens with as much force as you can possibly muster, taking out the entire optical cluster, including the lamp. Now turn back to your screen and you should see a noticeable reduction in your lumen output.

This procedure is not recommended for anyone without the requisite hand/eye coordination, as some minor scratching of the remote may result.

Hope this helps

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post #182 of 2051 Old 03-17-2009, 04:16 PM
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Ha, you had me there CM for a moment
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post #183 of 2051 Old 03-17-2009, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

I would like to avoid a filter as well. I will be at about 70 ftl....(1800/25*1) with a unity gain screen (in a completely light controlled room). Is there no way to tone down the lumen output to something below 1800 by adjusting a setting on the projector?

A few things to consider. You are planning on using the T1 lens and I think it has been reported that the T1 version is not getting 1,800 lumens on the Lumis.

Secondly, you mentioned you were also considering the C3X1080 as an option. This machine will have far less than 1,800 lumens. So, that would be a viable option to get the light output down.

Lastly, if you have the room you can mount the projector as the far end (close end?) of the zoom range which will also cut down on light output.
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post #184 of 2051 Old 03-17-2009, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

In what ways ?

Art

Contrast.
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post #185 of 2051 Old 03-17-2009, 05:58 PM
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So if my screen 128.5" diagonal and 1.78:1, I'm dealing with:

[ ( 1800 / 50.22 ft^2 ) * screen gain ]

So I would have 46.6 ftl with a Studiotek, 32.3 ftl with a GreyHawk, and 25.1 ftl with a GrayMatte?

What would be the best one to go with if I get a Lumis?

I watch 2.35:1 movies with the projector wasting pixels (black bars on the bottom and top of screen). Would this affect what screen material would be the best option as well?

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post #186 of 2051 Old 03-17-2009, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian_Currie View Post

Contrast.

Only native sequential. The Lumis has much much higher ANSI contrast and at least as much as the comparisons Wolfgang Mayer did the apparent contrast in some pretty impressive stuff the Lumis looks better than the RS20 for example. It looks like the DB works impressively well.

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post #187 of 2051 Old 03-17-2009, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odyssey View Post

It's actually Century Optics, acquired by Schneider. This is a product line for the movie and video industries.

Thanks for the clarification. I'll get them to look up the part numbers for me.

Best,
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post #188 of 2051 Old 03-17-2009, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by LJG View Post

Ha, you had me there CM for a moment

Snicker , me too. Was getting ready to PM a contact for the details...
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post #189 of 2051 Old 03-17-2009, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian_Currie View Post

So what I'm trying to point out here is that the Lumis doesn't seem to perform like a projector with high native CR.

I'm not sure what the other projector is you were referring to (maybe a CRT) and this may or may not apply here, but one thing a higher on/off CR could reasonably allow is a higher gamma (more like a CRT's natural gamma). This could then end up affecting images that don't seem like the type that would benefit from high on/off CR, where they are really benefiting more from the higher gamma that is leaving more CR between say 20%stim and 80%stim.

I'm not sure if that made sense, but coming at it from another direction, a lower on/off CR could mean that a display tops out at about 2.2 gamma to look good just because where the images are all dark there isn't enough CR between say 0%stim and 10%stim or 20%stim, if the same gamma is used for all images. In the case of a 2.2 gamma the CR between 80%stim and 20%stim would be about 21:1. Now if the display is modified with much higher on/off CR then these very dark images may be less of a problem and now a person may be able to reasonably go to a 2.4 gamma. With a 2.4 gamma the CR between 80%stim and 20%stim would be closer to 28:1. A somewhat small difference at about 30% more there, but still a difference.

With the dynamic iris of the Lumis I'm not sure how much the above applies, but it could and to really see if it is better than the previous generation I think it makes some sense to make sure that the gamma has been optimized (including for the environment) for it. After that it is done it is possible that some images that don't seem like they would be helped by the higher dynamic CR of the DI system actually would be.

BTW: I'm not sure how much control there is over the gamma with the Lumis. I recall that on Art's HT5000 there were some high choices for gamma and we used some higher ones after playing around a little bit. He was coming from those 2 G90s and I don't know if the choices actually mapped to those gammas (I don't think it was final software at that point).

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post #190 of 2051 Old 03-17-2009, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Only native sequential. The Lumis has much much higher ANSI contrast and at least as much as the comparisons Wolfgang Mayer did the apparent contrast in some pretty impressive stuff the Lumis looks better than the RS20 for example. It looks like the DB works impressively well.

Art

As you know, I tested both back to back, and did notice a rather strange phenomenon.

I was watching Deliverance and was alternating between both machines to check the Lumis black levels compared to the RS20. I paused the movie to go get some more beer. As I was returning I could hear the immortal line "squeal like a pig". I thought one of my guests had pressed play before I got back with the beer. I was frikkin furious.

Imagine my surprise when I got back in the room and was met by a horrific scene. The Lumis had mounted the RS20 and was delivering a serious " big daddy butt-slam" . All I could hear was the RS20 going "weeeeeeeeeeeeee, weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee". There's only so much a poor little PJ can take, and 12 rounds being pulverized by Ron Jeremy is beyond a joke.

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post #191 of 2051 Old 03-17-2009, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

As you know, I tested both back to back, and did notice a rather strange phenomenon.

I was watching Deliverance and was alternating between both machines to check the check the Lumis black levels compared to the RS20. I paused the movie to go get some more beer. As I was returning I could hear the immortal line "squeal like a pig". I thought one of my guests had pressed play before I got back with the beer. I was frikkin furious.

Imagine my surprise when I got back in the room and was met by a horrific scene. The Lumis had mounted the RS20 and was delivering a serious " big daddy butt-slam" . All I could hear was the RS20 going "weeeeeeeeeeeeee, weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee". There's only so much a poor little PJ can take, and 12 rounds being pulverized by Ron Jeremy is beyond a joke.

Nice story,I thought for a minute there that a couple of buddies got so excited about the Lumis performance that they couldn't contain themselves.

Glad to hear that it was only simple electromechanical sodomy.I hope you didn't take out the Lumis with your bow and arrow.

Art

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post #192 of 2051 Old 03-18-2009, 02:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

So if my screen 128.5" diagonal and 1.78:1, I'm dealing with:

[ ( 1800 / 50.22 ft^2 ) * screen gain ]

So I would have 46.6 ftl with a Studiotek, 32.3 ftl with a GreyHawk, and 25.1 ftl with a GrayMatte?

What would be the best one to go with if I get a Lumis?

I watch 2.35:1 movies with the projector wasting pixels (black bars on the bottom and top of screen). Would this affect what screen material would be the best option as well?


You could opt for a Stewart StudioTek Microperf X2 as your screen. The material is endorsed by Joe Kane like the ST130 G3 as well and the results are really good IMO. Since you have Revel Ultima Salon2's as your LCR which are reasonably high, you can place the screen in front (of the centre speaker if not the Left and Right) rather than above the speaker(s). A motorized drop-down is an option to remove the screen for 2 ch or multi-channel audio listening. Get the screen samples so you can evaluate them.
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post #193 of 2051 Old 03-18-2009, 05:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haroon Malik View Post

You could opt for a Stewart StudioTek Microperf X2 as your screen. The material is endorsed by Joe Kane like the ST130 G3 as well and the results are really good IMO. Since you have Revel Ultima Salon2's as your LCR which are reasonably high, you can place the screen in front (of the centre speaker if not the Left and Right) rather than above the speaker(s). A motorized drop-down is an option to remove the screen for 2 ch or multi-channel audio listening. Get the screen samples so you can evaluate them.

So the Studiotek with an ND filter is likely my best choice?

What you mentioned above is my exact setup already! Stewart sent me the wrong hole punch angle though and I have some intense moire with the C3X1080. Assuming the moire doesn't disappear with a switch to the Lumis, I will have to measure the best hole punch angle and get the screen replaced with the Lumis as well. If that is the case, I'm wondering if switching to another material would be a better option than using the Studiotek 130 X2 (G3) with an ND filter?

One of the things that bothers me about all of the G3 screens is that optical coating material; I tend to notice it during movies. I was thinking of using the GrayMatte, but was told that it reflects a lot of light into the room.

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post #194 of 2051 Old 03-18-2009, 05:13 AM
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I guess if I take off 10% light output for microperf screen and consider bulb usage, then my numbers would make GreyMatte too low?

With microperf I would have 41.9 ftl with a Studiotek, 29.07 ftl with a GreyHawk, and 22.59 ftl with a GrayMatte?

With the GreyHawk I would get a range of 20.349 to 29.07 assuming 30% loss in light output from bulb usage.

With the StudioTek I would get a range of 29.33 to 41.9 assuming a 30% loss in light.

So, it seems like an ND filter would be the best option in my situation?

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post #195 of 2051 Old 03-18-2009, 06:34 AM
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Queuecumber, if the texture of the Studiotek bothers you with the C3X 1080 then it will be far more apparent with the much brighter Lumis. Does Stewart not make non coated screen material? I've seen a 1080 on Firehawk and the texture is very obvious whereas on my 1080/Studiotek was negligible. On the Lumis the Studiotek looks like the Firehawk/C3X and grain is molto apparent. Gain here in not needed for sure if a good non coated screen can be sourced. Also IMO all this talk of excessive lumens is poppycock as in practice more lumens is actually quite pleasant. Saying one has too much light is a little like saying one's love muscle is too large. When pro's are calibrated to D65, much of that extra light goes byebye anyway unfortunately.
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post #196 of 2051 Old 03-18-2009, 06:47 AM
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QC,
If you inform Stewart of your PJ they will make the perforations accordingly. They actually ask for the PJ name and model specifically for the perforations. I personally think that the coating has been modified so that you can virtually see no sparklies. It has improved a lot from the previous versions IMO. With the Microperf X2, The gain would be around 1.1 or so. If you have the space, then you should surely go for a larger screen.

There was a discussion on high grade filters recently. Try searching for it. Alan and/or CM can guide you in the right direction for that as well. Initially, you may require a filter but as the lamp wears on you can enjoy the picture in low lamp mode with the highest contrast settings for a superb picture.

In your particular case, I think a motorized drop-down would be the best option as you don't have/prefer a screenwall. Your PJ having the horse power to be too bright is not a concern IMO. The opposite is usually the case! Good luck!
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post #197 of 2051 Old 03-18-2009, 07:03 AM
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I am with Owen, currently I am getting 19 foot lamberts at lamp set to 220 w (Lowest setting) at D 65.
If I increase to highest setting (I have not measured ft L at this setting) the perceived increase in brightness is not much. I suspect as my bulb decay now at 66 hours I could very well be in high lamp territory and enjoying the picture.
very intresting observation.... watching Palladia Crossroads TIVO recording kelly Clarkson and Reba Duo at 220 watts I could see excellent details and picture but at highest setting although the picture did not seem to be overly bright I would see facial hair on Reba's jawline, tiny tiny fizzy hair....
I will be going with the Ultramatte X2 1/3 Gain to replace my Firehawk which is giving Moire.
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post #198 of 2051 Old 03-18-2009, 07:39 AM
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Just read the thread. No mention of gamut measurements? Can this projector hit Rec.709? How accurate is greyscale/colour/gamma curves?

Cheers,

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My kit: 15' 2.35:1 Screen Research CP2 4-way mask, Sony vw1000es, Lumagen 2144, Meridian 861/621/7x5500/2xSW5500

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post #199 of 2051 Old 03-18-2009, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post

I will be going with the Ultramatte X2 1/3 Gain to replace my Firehawk which is giving Moire.
Ash

Ash,

I know that I already told you this in PM, but I want to post it in case others want to comment. Although I strongly prefer the Stewart 1.3 gain materials compared to the Firehawk overall, you will have a large drop in ANSI CR measured from the screen. I would not be surprised if the ANSI CR drops to 300:1. It would be even lower without the curve, probably no more than 250:1.
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post #200 of 2051 Old 03-18-2009, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post

I am with Owen, currently I am getting 19 foot lamberts at lamp set to 220 w (Lowest setting) at D 65.
If I increase to highest setting (I have not measured ft L at this setting) the perceived increase in brightness is not much. I suspect as my bulb decay now at 66 hours I could very well be in high lamp territory and enjoying the picture.
very intresting observation.... watching Palladia Crossroads TIVO recording kelly Clarkson and Reba Duo at 220 watts I could see excellent details and picture but at highest setting although the picture did not seem to be overly bright I would see facial hair on Reba's jawline, tiny tiny fizzy hair....
I will be going with the Ultramatte X2 1/3 Gain to replace my Firehawk which is giving Moire.
Ash

LOL, with this projector you do see and notice things on very familiar material that have never seen before and even sometimes things that perhaps we shouldn't With Chicago, which looked utterly fantastic BTW (thanks Ash), the bad skin of Renee Zellwegger came right through her makeup couldn't hide from the powers of the Lumis!

Mark Color Gamut is very interesting subject with Lumis indeed. I'm curious what settings you've ended up with Ash, perhaps you can post them here. I notice when this comes through from Sim2, they have Native and Medium color as default which to me looks oversaturated with reds somewhat and very bright but nice. Going to SMPTE-C and D65 really dims things down. I was getting 1162 lumens at D65 and going to factory color settings and 2083 lumens with Native/Medium. I much preferred the additional pop of the Native settings and was getting subjectively better blacks for some reason as well.
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post #201 of 2051 Old 03-18-2009, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

As you know, I tested both back to back, and did notice a rather strange phenomenon.

I was watching Deliverance and was alternating between both machines to check the Lumis black levels compared to the RS20. I paused the movie to go get some more beer. As I was returning I could hear the immortal line "squeal like a pig". I thought one of my guests had pressed play before I got back with the beer. I was frikkin furious.

Imagine my surprise when I got back in the room and was met by a horrific scene. The Lumis had mounted the RS20 and was delivering a serious " big daddy butt-slam" . All I could hear was the RS20 going "weeeeeeeeeeeeee, weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee". There's only so much a poor little PJ can take, and 12 rounds being pulverized by Ron Jeremy is beyond a joke.


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post #202 of 2051 Old 03-18-2009, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odyssey View Post

Ash,

I know that I already told you this in PM, but I want to post it in case others want to comment. Although I strongly prefer the Stewart 1.3 gain materials compared to the Firehawk overall, you will have a large drop in ANSI CR measured from the screen. I would not be surprised if the ANSI CR drops to 300:1. It would be even lower without the curve, probably no more than 250:1.

Very interesting Ivan, is that a drop in Ansi only due to 1.3 gain Stewrt or the combo of 1.3 gain and AT material?
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post #203 of 2051 Old 03-18-2009, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by LJG View Post

Very interesting Ivan, is that a drop in Ansi only due to 1.3 gain Stewrt or the combo of 1.3 gain and AT material?

The drop is due to the much lower directionality of the Studiotek and Ultramatte 130 compared to the Firehawk. The lower directionality is a very good thing, especially in a theater with a lot of off axis seating, but sacrifices ANSI CR, especially in more reflective rooms. The perfs decrease ANSI CR because of back reflection, but this is a minor effect with a very flat black finish behind the screen.
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post #204 of 2051 Old 03-18-2009, 10:54 AM
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What affect would say a Snowmatte 100 gain screen have on Ansi CR?
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post #205 of 2051 Old 03-18-2009, 11:02 AM
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odyssey

Wouldn't this effect be diminished in performance theater with blackout material on walls/ceilings? What it primarily is affecting ANSI is in light dispersion back into the room and if you have the ability to control this in room you can then choose other materials like Studiotek based on relevance/preference for attributes like color accuracy, lower screen material texture effects etc., no?
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post #206 of 2051 Old 03-18-2009, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LJG View Post

What affect would say a Snowmatte 100 gain screen have on Ansi CR?

It would be worse with Snowmatte, but less than you think because the lower gain helps. Stewart has a spec for all of these screens that indicates the ANSI CR effect. It's called something like front reflection.
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post #207 of 2051 Old 03-18-2009, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by owl1 View Post

odyssey

Wouldn't this effect be diminished in performance theater with blackout material on walls/ceilings? What it primarily is affecting ANSI is in light dispersion back into the room and if you have the ability to control this in room you can then choose other materials like Studiotek based on relevance/preference for attributes like color accuracy, lower screen material texture effects etc., no?

The better the room, the less the effect.
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post #208 of 2051 Old 03-18-2009, 11:16 AM
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guys, just received my lumis and doing quick setup.
Pls pm me how to get the service menu in order to fix convergence. Mine have red full pixel up.
Will report soon.
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post #209 of 2051 Old 03-18-2009, 11:26 AM
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Sure would like to see one on a DNP Epic. Its 0.8 gain IIRC. If anyone comes across a Lumis setup with DNP, let me know, I'll go see it.
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post #210 of 2051 Old 03-18-2009, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odyssey View Post

The drop is due to the much lower directionality of the Studiotek and Ultramatte 130 compared to the Firehawk.

That and the gray layer of the Firehawk helps it retain ANSI CR in the face of room reflections also.

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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