Digital Active Speaker Thread..... - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 481 Old 03-05-2009, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
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I agree totally, except for the boom/sizzle thing (which shows up again and again and again in measurements)

John
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post #452 of 481 Old 03-05-2009, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

JMLab is a leading contender for a DSP speaker

Interesting that you should drop that name. Have you guys considered why Focal-JMLab and Dynaudio HAVE NOT taken the digital actives they have in the pro world and introduced the same technology on their consumer sides? Maybe they've concluded that such speakers are unlikely to succeed, commercially.

http://www.focalprofessional.com/en/...SM11-home.html

http://www.dynaudioacoustics.com/Default.asp?Id=2846
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post #453 of 481 Old 03-05-2009, 09:25 AM
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I don't have access to any current measurements of the Alexandra II but have YOU actually LISTENED to them in a great room? They are NOT sizzle and boom. It is certainly OK if you don't like them but that decision would best be made after you actually listen to them in a great room.
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post #454 of 481 Old 03-05-2009, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by syswei View Post

Interesting that you should drop that name. Have you guys considered why Focal-JMLab and Dynaudio HAVE NOT taken the digital actives they have in the pro world and introduced the same technology on their consumer sides? Maybe they've concluded that such speakers are unlikely to succeed, commercially.

http://www.focalprofessional.com/en/...SM11-home.html

http://www.dynaudioacoustics.com/Default.asp?Id=2846

Sure, but I think it's a matter of time. I spoke with Mark Glazer of Revel and he said that he could easily design a better Ultima with DSP, but they're worried about demand. It's a chicken/egg thing. Sonos was almost impossible for us to sell in 2005 despite massive efforts. By 2006, we had a reasonable trickle of customers. By 2007, it was our biggest selling product. The product didn't change, the marketing didn't change, it was customer attitudes and knowledge. Even that is the tip of the iceberg.

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post #455 of 481 Old 03-05-2009, 09:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

I don't have access to any current measurements of the Alexandra II but have YOU actually LISTENED to them in a great room? They are NOT sizzle and boom. It is certainly OK if you don't like them but that decision would best be made after you actually listen to them in a great room.

Well, true that the more affordable ones are measuring increasingly accurate (as in less boom and sizzle), but c'mon, you've seen the measurements of the Maxx2, right? +8 in the treble bass, as much as -8 in the midrange? that's like a whole new level of boom/sizzle! Add DEQX and the Maxx2 would be 1/10 that inaccurate and retain all the other things people seem to like about them. Or......maybe not

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post #456 of 481 Old 03-05-2009, 09:41 AM
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John, apart from people just liking to be able to pick their amps, wouldn't you expect reliability might not be as good as with passive crossovers?

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #457 of 481 Old 03-05-2009, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
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In the near term, maybe not, though if you look at Meridian, we've had incredible reliability from them. I would expect that modern amp/DSP packs could last 15-20 years with little to no problems and would allow for indefinite upgrading of the speaker if newer, better drives come out. Plus DSP speakers are less likely to fail due to high spl 'oops, I had too much to drink' events. So driver failures would likely go down as an offset.

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post #458 of 481 Old 03-05-2009, 09:57 AM
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John: One more time. Have YOU actually LISTENED to the X-2's in a great room? How about the newly updated Maxx?
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post #459 of 481 Old 03-05-2009, 10:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

John: One more time. Have YOU actually LISTENED to the X-2's in a great room? How about the newly updated Maxx?

No, I haven't really pursued it because of the measurements/design vs cost. I'm sure they don't sound bad, but I've heard lots of 'rave' 5-figure speakers that simply make me scratch my head. And, really, should a $45K speaker require an update to be less than +/-8dB? But that's a whole 'nother discussion. In my mind, these speakers are dinosaurs, even though they could get a DSP retrofit and benefit immensely.

If you'd spent the last 8 or 9 years listening to $5K-$25K DSP *and* passive speakers as I have, you'd probably understand my POV better. It's the DSP speakers that make me want to sit and listen.

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post #460 of 481 Old 03-05-2009, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

No, I haven't really pursued it .....[but] these speakers are dinosaurs,

There is an expression I used in the corporate world that fits you perfectly: "If the only tool I have is a hammer, all problems look like nails". You are totally blowing off (dinosaur?) a speaker that you have not listened to because - pick one: (a) it cost too much (b) it's ugly (c) I don't like it's (X-2's) measurements (that I haven't actually seen) (d) I don't like Dave Wislon (e) all of the above or (f) I don't carry the product. (g) I'm just incredibly biased.
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post #461 of 481 Old 03-05-2009, 10:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

There is an expression I used in the corporate world that fits you perfectly: "If the only tool I have is a hammer, all problems look like nails". You are totally blowing off (dinosaur?) a speaker that you have not listened to because - pick one: (a) it cost too much (b) it's ugly (c) I don't like it's (X-2's) measurements (that I haven't actually seen) (d) I don't like Dave Wislon (e) all of the above or (f) I don't carry the product. (g) I'm just incredibly biased.

A and C (Maxx2).

What is more sophisticated and more costly to build, an X2 or an Audi RS6?

I do have a bias against D'Appolitos and 3-way passive design. 3 different sized drivers just doesn't cut it and D'Appolitos are a mess, it doesn't matter *who* does it (or even with steep DSP crossovers). NHT's D'Appolitos had issues I didn't like and did things worse than their non-D'Appolito designs, but at least they were less than $2000/pr. They were replaced with 4-ways which were *substantially* better. I'll be interested in hearing a Maxx or X2 when it measures as well as a $2500 pair of NHTs, which is to say, probably next life time



Let me put it this way, if someone offered to give me a pair of X2s or a pair of Revel Studio2s, both with DEQX and professionally optimized in an anechoic chamber, I'd take the Studio2s without hesitation. Why? Engineering choices, pure and simple. Well, maybe the difference between engineering choices and marketing choices.

PS - why is it that, to an 'audiophile', "doing it right" is an expression of big money (or brand name) rather than great design and engineering?

In the end, I agree with you that it doesn't matter because Wilson has good marketing and clout, so I'd love to see him build one because that's good for everyone.

John
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post #462 of 481 Old 03-05-2009, 11:52 AM
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What speaker does that F/R graph represent? By the way, does your business/store have a web site?
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post #463 of 481 Old 03-05-2009, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Have measurements?

Edit - can you do better than a just beyond DIY brand sold only in Sweden?


Do better? Where there any "it must be so big brand" or "it must sell as much" to be counted? In that case the NHT would not count at all or?
It is the best speakers I have heard in the term of "correct" reproducing of the source.

Sound and video is not magic, it is pure physics. Physics that can be magical
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post #464 of 481 Old 03-05-2009, 02:24 PM
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was that wilson speaker a big seller, or considered one of the successful ones?? (properties says it's a maxx 2) cause I have to say that one glance at it is enough to rule it out for me as well. By ANY yardstick, how could it be described as hi fidelity?

Is it one of his less expensive 'mid' fi models?

I am really curious, the argument always comes up that FR does not tell the whole story, so what could be the possible subjective responses to that that is pleasing? That bass hump alone would be enough to be annoying within a few minutes, (for me of course, not trying to be provocative but genuinely curious).

Just using that alone as an example, could it simply be that people who like it have never been exposed to good accurate bass? (is it capable of getting good solid extension without that artificial boom even?) Often you do not know how good bass is until you can directly hear when the boom is gone. I have often smoothed peoples bass (eq only) and it can be a shock that what they are used to hearing has been highly coloured until they can suddenly hear it gone.

Until then they just didn't know (and I'm usually talking about room induced aberations, let alone a deliberately engineered natural bass boom)

Unless his crossover skills were insufficient to get a better response? (how else to explain everything above 200 hz too?)
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post #465 of 481 Old 03-05-2009, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

What speaker does that F/R graph represent? By the way, does your business/store have a web site?

Maxx2. I do.

John
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post #466 of 481 Old 03-05-2009, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by NIN74 View Post

Do better? Where there any "it must be so big brand" or "it must sell as much" to be counted? In that case the NHT would not count at all or?
It is the best speakers I have heard in the term of "correct" reproducing of the source.

Well, c'mon. I could claim the same about a speaker I built in my garage, but how could anyone verify it? I mean something Stereophile or Soundstage might actually review or I might be able to hear if I drove 500 miles. Besides, when people put the term "correct" in parenthesis, it usually means "euphonic the way I like it".

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post #467 of 481 Old 03-05-2009, 03:10 PM
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John, if you were going to design an active three way with available diy drivers, cost no object, with the DEQX as the crossover, what would you build?

Ok to assume a pair of subwoofers to handle high output below 40hz or so if that's part of the concept.
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post #468 of 481 Old 03-05-2009, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Well, c'mon. I could claim the same about a speaker I built in my garage, but how could anyone verify it? I mean something Stereophile or Soundstage might actually review or I might be able to hear if I drove 500 miles. Besides, when people put the term "correct" in parenthesis, it usually means "euphonic the way I like it".


I prove it the same way you are proving that digital active crossover is the best, by saying it. So why on earth is your comment more valuable than mine?

Sound and video is not magic, it is pure physics. Physics that can be magical
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post #469 of 481 Old 03-05-2009, 03:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by terry j View Post

Is it one of his less expensive 'mid' fi models?

$45,000/pr. Maybe more now.
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I am really curious, the argument always comes up that FR does not tell the whole story, so what could be the possible subjective responses to that that is pleasing? That bass hump alone would be enough to be annoying within a few minutes, (for me of course, not trying to be provocative but genuinely curious).

Could be, but just as I wouldn't buy a "great" $107K speaker that is incredibly high in distortion, I wouldn't buy a "great" $45K speaker that's incredibly inaccurate. I'd rather have a speaker that measures reasonably well in every way.
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Just using that alone as an example, could it simply be that people who like it have never been exposed to good accurate bass? (is it capable of getting good solid extension without that artificial boom even?) Often you do not know how good bass is until you can directly hear when the boom is gone. I have often smoothed peoples bass (eq only) and it can be a shock that what they are used to hearing has been highly coloured until they can suddenly hear it gone.

I got exposed to very accurate, very precise acoustic suspension and/or servo subs early on and it ruined me for most ported speakers and subs. There are some that don't sound ported, such as the Revel Ultimas, but they're few and far between. Most people think that's the way bass is supposed to sound.

John
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post #470 of 481 Old 03-05-2009, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by NIN74 View Post

I prove it the same way you are proving that digital active crossover is the best, by saying it. So why on earth is your comment more valuable than mine?

I've got measurements and reviews on my side, as well as probably a dozen people on AVS that own them, plus dozens of my own customers and hundreds of people who have heard them and said that they were the single best speakers they've ever heard.

John
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post #471 of 481 Old 03-05-2009, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

... hundreds of people who have heard them and said that they were the single best speakers they've ever heard.



Maybe I ought to get my hearing checked. I wouldn't put them in the top 100 of speakers I've ever heard.

Every dealer I've ever talked to has similar anecdotes.
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post #472 of 481 Old 03-05-2009, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Brucemck2 View Post

John, if you were going to design an active three way with available diy drivers, cost no object, with the DEQX as the crossover, what would you build?

I'd probably use a single W15 as in the Tikandi and Xd, but crossed over at 300Hz or so to solve the compression issues, I'd probably use one of those new diamond tweeters from Accuton (I think), and not sure about the bass drivers, but it would probably be 3 8" metal woofers, possibly SEAS, but there are others. NHT developed some really nice magnesium 8" woofers from a Chinese manufacturer that were pretty cool for their top of the line, $20K/pr 4-way DEQX system
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Ok to assume a pair of subwoofers to handle high output below 40hz or so if that's part of the concept.

Well, hmmmmmm, if that were the case, I'd do the same thing (think Revel Studio2s) and I'd build a 4' tower o'bass with 4 12" woofers per side, and add in a standard analog active crossover for the subs.

John
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post #473 of 481 Old 03-05-2009, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Maybe I ought to get my hearing checked. I wouldn't put them in the top 100 of speakers I've ever heard.

There aren't 100 speakers in existence that are even in the same league as Xd, let alone better, so, yes, hearing check might be in order. Or, at least, a blind fold to remove bia$.
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Every dealer I've ever talked to has similar anecdotes.

All two of them? All which sell really expensive speakers, really expensive cables, really expensive amps, really expensive...........? As one California Xd buyer told me, from memory "He kept trying to sell me B&W 800s, but when I told him that the Xds were clearly better, he leaned over and offered to sell me the demos because they wanted to get them out of there. And so I did".

High-end dealers don't dislike them because they're bad, they dislike them because they're that good and a deadly threat to their placebo business. That's what keeps my competitor going - mediocre, but high profit passive speakers followed by tens of $thousands of ancillary "upgrades".

John
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post #474 of 481 Old 03-05-2009, 04:51 PM
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Bia$? Coming from a dealer? Hmmmmmmm.....

FWIW, the most expensive speakers I've ever purchased had an MSRP of $18K. But I sure like to hear/experience as many speakers as I can, in all price ranges, if for no other reason than the fun of it. I just like experiencing music, whether I'm playing it on guitar or bass, or listening to CDs. Heck, as I'm typing this in my office I'm listening to a Sonos system right now which to date has about 1100 of my CDs in FLAC format feeding a pair of Era Design 4s (which I know you also enjoy).

Two dealers? You have tremendous powers, Carnac. Of course, you're spot on. One was at Pacific Stereo, 20 years ago, before they folded. Or maybe it was Good Guys. The other dealer I met in an alley, cash transaction ... oops, I guess I should just keep that to myself.

Of course, you also must be spot on regarding the inventory and motivation of high end dealers because, after all, you're Carnac. Only your anecdotes are to be deemed factual by the AVS community.

Man, you have no shame, no boundaries, nor a drop of humility in you.
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post #475 of 481 Old 03-05-2009, 05:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ron Party View Post

Two dealers? You have tremendous powers, Carnac. Of course, you're spot on. One was at Pacific Stereo, 20 years ago, before they folded. Or maybe it was Good Guys. The other dealer I met in an alley, cash transaction ... oops, I guess I should just keep that to myself.

So, how many dealers can you *honestly* say you've been to that carried Xd and ditched it because it was such a bad speaker? If anything, the reviews would bring people in and you could get people into expensive gear after crushing their dreams of a cheap system. But you know that isn't the real reason. If your business is "treatment", you don't want a "cure.
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Of course, you also must be spot on regarding the inventory and motivation of high end dealers because, after all, you're Carnac. Only your anecdotes are to be deemed factual by the AVS community.

Only a small relative few of you that cling desperately to beliefs and heckle anyone who has other experiences.
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Man, you have no shame, no boundaries, nor a drop of humility in you.

At least I have the ability to contribute rather than harass.

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post #476 of 481 Old 03-05-2009, 05:15 PM
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cling desperately to beliefs and heckle anyone who has other experiences

Is that from the opening paragraph of your autobiography?
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post #477 of 481 Old 03-05-2009, 05:26 PM
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High-end dealers don't dislike them because they're bad, they dislike them because they're that good and a deadly threat to their placebo business. That's what keeps my competitor going - mediocre, but high profit passive speakers followed by tens of $thousands of ancillary "upgrades".

Why do you think a discontinued speaker poses a deadly threat to your competitor's business, and what speakers do you carry to counter your competitor's offerings.
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post #478 of 481 Old 03-05-2009, 05:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Why do you think a discontinued speaker poses a deadly threat to your competitor's business, and what speakers do you carry to counter your competitor's offerings.

It isn't now, obviously, but it could have been, especially for dealers that are selling an underpriced, overachieving digital speaker next to underachieving, overpriced conventional gear. But marketing and dealer resistance prevailed (along with a weakened and repeatedly bought/sold NHT). Only a small percentage of NHT dealers ever even ordered a set because it didn't fit their normal sales paradigm. So, we picked back up Meridian. But otherwise, I'm laying low on the over $5K/pr speakers given the economy. Right now, there's not a lot of competition going on, except to see who has the most tumbleweeds gathering.

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post #479 of 481 Old 03-05-2009, 07:27 PM
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So, how many dealers can you *honestly* say you've been to that carried Xd and ditched it because it was such a bad speaker?

Irrelevant. And, even if this was relevant, which it is not, it is a straw man argument. Neither I nor anyone to my recollection (as damaged as it is due to years of, well, I better not say) certainly did not say it was a "bad speaker", let alone "such a bad speaker".
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If anything, the reviews would bring people in and you could get people into expensive gear after crushing their dreams of a cheap system. But you know that isn't the real reason. If your business is "treatment", you don't want a "cure.

I'm not even sure this point is intelligible.
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Only a small relative few of you that cling desperately to beliefs and heckle anyone who has other experiences.

Ah, I get it. Your "two dealer" comment to me could not possibly be deemed "heckling" now, could it.
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At least I have the ability to contribute rather than harass.

So harrassment = expression of disagreement with you, namely, that Xd is not God's gift to humankind? What you see as "contribute" many (and most assuredly I) see simply as shouting louder. Syswei, you're spot on regarding the autobiography.

Like I said, not an ounce of humility.
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post #480 of 481 Old 03-05-2009, 07:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Irrelevant. And, even if this was relevant, which it is not, it is a straw man argument. Neither I nor anyone to my recollection (as damaged as it is due to years of, well, I better not say) certainly did not say it was a "bad speaker", let alone "such a bad speaker".

"I exaggerate and can't back it up but it's irrelevant" As a lawyer might say "points to credibility".
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Ah, I get it. Your "two dealer" comment to me could not possibly be deemed "heckling" now, could it.

Just asking for you to be honest. Sorry if that's difficult for you.
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So harrassment = expression of disagreement with you, namely, that Xd is not God's gift to humankind? What you see as "contribute" many (and most assuredly I) see simply as shouting louder. Syswei, you're spot on regarding the autobiography.

No, harassment is only bothering to post when you can make negative comments or personal attacks. I don't do that to you. I don't expect you to agree with anything, but intellectual honesty would be a plus, otherwise you come of as, dare I say, a troll?
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Like I said, not an ounce of humility.

Pot, kettle, black.

John
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