Jim Burns - Are Some Blu Ray Players Better on HDMI HD Picture Quality? - Page 8 - AVS Forum
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post #211 of 224 Old 03-09-2009, 10:08 PM
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post #212 of 224 Old 03-10-2009, 12:27 PM
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So tell me how come packet loss does not occur over DSL lines when the wind is blowing or dampened in the rain??

0's and 1's will always be there. Now since HDMI doesnt use a "secured" connector I can see a loss of info under vibration. But as with all digital its either there or its not. There is no form of grey goo in the middle.

Taking that info and passing over a $3.50 monoprice cable, vs a $800 snake oil brand, you aren't gonna see a difference, there is no interference... its either gonna show up, or its not.

Take what ya read about the intergrity of digital, especially when it comes to outside interference, with a grain of salt...

BTW I have years of experience in the IT field working with DSL, T1, OC3, Fiber, Copper, WAP, Wifi, etc...
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post #213 of 224 Old 03-10-2009, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by khellandros66 View Post

So tell me how come packet loss does not occur over DSL lines when the wind is blowing or dampened in the rain??

Because they're on cable elevators

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post #214 of 224 Old 03-10-2009, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khellandros66 View Post

So tell me how come packet loss does not occur over DSL lines when the wind is blowing or dampened in the rain??

0's and 1's will always be there. Now since HDMI doesnt use a "secured" connector I can see a loss of info under vibration. But as with all digital its either there or its not. There is no form of grey goo in the middle.

I thought we explained all of this. But here is a quick summary again.

The 1s and 0s are recoverd correctly as you state. No one is debating that one way or the other.

Sometime later, for audio, those samples need to become analog signals. The DAC needs three things to do that:

1. The sampe value. This is 100% there per above.

2. A reference voltage. This voltage is divided by the value told to output (more or less). This is an analog value. If this value is wrong, your output is wrong. If the value gets modulated (modifed) by something, then your output gets distorted.

3. A master clock. This tells the DAC when to output the samples. This clock must have accuracy down to trillionth of a second (based on math) for the last bit of a 16-bit value to be accurate.

High-speed activity on power supply lines and RF leakage/cross-talk cause #2 or #3 to ever so slightly change. When they do, you no longer have the same output. The characteristics of the cable (and noise induced on it) impacts the circuits at both end and that impact in return can modulate #2 or #3.

I hope everyone is in sync with above. I post papers outlining them.

What the disagreement is whether that impact is of any audible significance. The effect though on #2 and #3 can be measured and shown with instruments.

Net, net, we have an analog process when it comes to timing and clock for audio. The system is not all digital. It never has been despite misconceptions to the contrary.

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Taking that info and passing over a $3.50 monoprice cable, vs a $800 snake oil brand, you aren't gonna see a difference, there is no interference... its either gonna show up, or its not.

I buy monoprice cables also. So that is neither here nor there. And for video, there is no issue because the final output is more or less digital (a pixel). So nothing "shows" up anywhere if you change HDMI cables.
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Take what ya read about the intergrity of digital, especially when it comes to outside interference, with a grain of salt...

BTW I have years of experience in the IT field working with DSL, T1, OC3, Fiber, Copper, WAP, Wifi, etc...

None of which helps you here because the final output of all of those systems is digital. Not analog. Problem only comes up if you attempt to convert those digital samples to analog which we don't do in communication (sans dial-up and stuff like that). And try to listen to them.

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post #215 of 224 Old 03-11-2009, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by khellandros66 View Post

So tell me how come packet loss does not occur over DSL lines when the wind is blowing or dampened in the rain??

0's and 1's will always be there.

This would seem to demonstrate a lack of understanding of the difference between protocols.

TCP/IP has acknowledgment packets (ACK) which return to the server side to indicate receipt. If an acknowledgment packet is not received for a series of packets they are retransmitted. The protocol also allows for out of order packet reassembly at the receiving end to account for the retransmitted packets.

By contrast HDMI is a real time operation with no retransmit capability. In this respect it's not dissimilar to media streaming across a network. Data can (and does) get lost.


Quote:
Now since HDMI doesnt use a "secured" connector I can see a loss of info under vibration. But as with all digital its either there or its not. There is no form of grey goo in the middle.

So there's no such thing as data loss or corruption? Sorry, that's not valid. It has nothing to do with the connector in most cases either.

Quote:
Taking that info and passing over a $3.50 monoprice cable, vs a $800 snake oil brand, you aren't gonna see a difference, there is no interference... its either gonna show up, or its not.

Construction, not price is the issue. Over longer lengths you need higher gauge, which does translate to a higher cost to prevent dropping your signal levels outside of spec.



Quote:
Take what ya read about the intergrity of digital, especially when it comes to outside interference, with a grain of salt...

Right now, I think everyone should be taking your post with a grain of salt -- you haven't demonstrated an understanding in the differences between a data network and HDMI's topology.

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BTW I have years of experience in the IT field working with DSL, T1, OC3, Fiber, Copper, WAP, Wifi, etc...

You are guilty of assigning properties of one "network" topology with another. My use of "network" is a rather loose usage as HDMI isn't really a network in the traditional sense.

I have years of experience in the IT field as well. It's not the same animal real time vs. non real time. See my previous about streaming media.

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post #216 of 224 Old 03-11-2009, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Yup. Until we understand how the ear works, we are shooting in the dark. We finally arrive at a key point. The ear is a super complex instrument. Yet, most of the research we have to design things for it date back many decades! Look at the hearing threshold curves from Fletcher and Munson. These go back to 1933! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher-Munson_curves

Yet we sue those curves in everything from desiging compression algorithms to DAC filtering and design (noise shaping). Surely we could use more current research for the sake of audio fidelity, than to cure disease.

Remember the Ferengi with the big ears in the Star Trek Next Generation tv show? Bose speakers sounded fantastic to them due to their exceptionally "big" hearing!

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post #217 of 224 Old 03-11-2009, 09:41 PM
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+1 john

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post #218 of 224 Old 03-12-2009, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khellandros66 View Post

0's and 1's will always be there. Now since HDMI doesnt use a "secured" connector I can see a loss of info under vibration. But as with all digital its either there or its not. There is no form of grey goo in the middle.

In our demo room, which is also used for competitive analysis, I have seen some BD players that had trouble driving some HDMI cables and switches, resulting in either a few or lots of sparkles on the screen...

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post #219 of 224 Old 03-13-2009, 02:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kotches View Post

This would seem to demonstrate a lack of understanding of the difference between protocols.

TCP/IP has acknowledgment packets (ACK) which return to the server side to indicate receipt. If an acknowledgment packet is not received for a series of packets they are retransmitted. The protocol also allows for out of order packet reassembly at the receiving end to account for the retransmitted packets.

By contrast HDMI is a real time operation with no retransmit capability. In this respect it's not dissimilar to media streaming across a network. Data can (and does) get lost.




So there's no such thing as data loss or corruption? Sorry, that's not valid. It has nothing to do with the connector in most cases either.



Construction, not price is the issue. Over longer lengths you need higher gauge, which does translate to a higher cost to prevent dropping your signal levels outside of spec.





Right now, I think everyone should be taking your post with a grain of salt -- you haven't demonstrated an understanding in the differences between a data network and HDMI's topology.



You are guilty of assigning properties of one "network" topology with another. My use of "network" is a rather loose usage as HDMI isn't really a network in the traditional sense.

I have years of experience in the IT field as well. It's not the same animal real time vs. non real time. See my previous about streaming media.

And to add to this excellent post, recall also that the performance of cabling particularly its capacitance, also affects jitter. Not to throw a wrench into the existing "jitter"/vibration discussion, but this actually is an objective and quantifiable cabling effect.
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post #220 of 224 Old 03-13-2009, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by kjack View Post

In our demo room, which is also used for competitive analysis, I have seen some BD players that had trouble driving some HDMI cables and switches, resulting in either a few or lots of sparkles on the screen...

A clear indication of a lower quality cable. tolerances are pretty low when dealing with HDMI.

i recall a few years back, silicon image went out and bought a bunch of monitors and graphic cards that were DVI (Still TMDS) an they tested and found that most of them did not meet spec.

so if you take that and apply it to cables that can vary in tolerances, you can have a whole mess of possibilities with different combinations.

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post #221 of 224 Old 03-13-2009, 02:10 PM
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Did Jim Burns ever post in this thread?

Steve, you should go back and rename it "Chasing red herring ghosts when talking about theoretical differences in HDMI cables/ here we go with jitter again!"

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post #222 of 224 Old 03-13-2009, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

Did Jim Burns ever post in this thread?

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Originally Posted by Jim Burns View Post

Haven't read the entire post yet but wanted to answer because "little Steve" (you some times learn too much form AVS forum) thought I would not. I will read the rest and answer later tomorrow this is quality time with the girl friend.

Those that know me are expecting me to recommend something off the shelf, not this time. I think a HTPC is the way to go here. I still do not know of a regular player that stands out above the rest. Does not mean it does not exist but I have not found it.

Finding an above average off the shelf player has been an issue for me too.

^^^

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post #223 of 224 Old 03-13-2009, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

Steve, you should go back and rename it "Chasing red herring ghosts when talking about theoretical differences in HDMI cables/ here we go with jitter again!"

I am confused. What else you all chat about in > $20,000 forum that to a person not schooled in it, sounds anything but "chasing red herring ghosts when talking about theoretical differences?"


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post #224 of 224 Old 03-15-2009, 07:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

off topic posts removed

THis is a quote from another thread. But if the moderator chose to remove all off topic posts from this thread, there would be less than a page left!!! Just a bunch of jitter discussing stuff, inluding HDMI audio quality and jitter, which isn't even the subject of the thread!!! (What else is new?)

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