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post #1 of 322 Old 05-06-2009, 03:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
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wilsonaudio.com/sasha/science

According to his new spin, MDF is actually more rigid then Aluminum 6061-T6 Aircraft Grade. A new era, indeed!! Perhaps not just cheaper speakers but also, cheaper airplanes?
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post #2 of 322 Old 05-06-2009, 03:52 PM
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Actual link:

http://wilsonaudio.com/sasha/science.html
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post #3 of 322 Old 05-06-2009, 05:13 PM
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It is not only how rigid the cabinet is, but it is more of using the right kind of cabinet that have resonances that are not audible. Wilson and many other high-end companys knows that this "ultra stiff cabinet" sells, even when it is maybe not really of any use.

Sound and video is not magic, it is pure physics. Physics that can be magical
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post #4 of 322 Old 05-06-2009, 05:29 PM
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Audiophiles like their gear ultra stiff.........

The problem is that they leave out what the thickness is, the size of the piece, etc. And don't test laminates using different materials, such as Meridian uses.

John
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post #5 of 322 Old 05-06-2009, 05:33 PM
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I would almost say that audiophile wants to get ripoff

Sound and video is not magic, it is pure physics. Physics that can be magical
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post #6 of 322 Old 05-06-2009, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Audiophiles like their gear ultra stiff.........

So do discerning women, but I'll be damned if I can figure out how to get a buck out of them.


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post #7 of 322 Old 05-06-2009, 06:49 PM
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Actual link:

http://wilsonaudio.com/sasha/science.html

Clearly a jibe at YG Acoustics!!
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post #8 of 322 Old 05-06-2009, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by NIN74 View Post

It is not only how rigid the cabinet is, but it is more of using the right kind of cabinet that have resonances that are not audible. Wilson and many other high-end companys knows that this "ultra stiff cabinet" sells, even when it is maybe not really of any use.

i have a dealer friend (VMPS) who uses a ton of foam on the outsides of his speakers in order to suck up resonance. basically, he has created a room inside of his room on the speaker side, as well as the listening side--its sounds pretty neat actually to have almost zero reflections.

when he came over to see my Sophias, he was amazed at how little/no acoustic energy was coming off the sides of the speakers, even at high volumes. he said this was the first speaker that it did not happen.
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post #9 of 322 Old 05-06-2009, 07:22 PM
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Clearly a jibe at YG Acoustics!!

And Magico, which uses aluminum for the baffle and baltic birch for the rest of the enclosure.
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post #10 of 322 Old 05-06-2009, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by KeithR View Post

when he came over to see my Sophias, he was amazed at how little/no acoustic energy was coming off the sides of the speakers, even at high volumes. he said this was the first speaker that it did not happen.

I did the same thing with the Maxx2 when I first had them. I played some Kodo drummers at realistic volume. (okay, maybe a little more) and you really had to try to sense any vibrations coming off the woofer cabinet sides.
Very inert!
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post #11 of 322 Old 05-06-2009, 07:44 PM
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Yes, of course, rubber will do the same. But if Wilson says that phenolic resin and/or MDF is stiffer then aluminum he must be right!
BTW, to those who questioned Wilson state of mind in regards to the competition, please watch http://www.wilsonaudio.com/sasha/history_movie.html. If this is not a reactive panic mode, I am not sure what is. A frontal attack on the newcomer. Quite funny (Or desperate??), I must say.
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post #12 of 322 Old 05-06-2009, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithR View Post

i have a dealer friend (VMPS) who uses a ton of foam on the outsides of his speakers in order to suck up resonance. basically, he has created a room inside of his room on the speaker side, as well as the listening side--its sounds pretty neat actually to have almost zero reflections.


Wow! Do you have any pics on that?

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post #13 of 322 Old 05-06-2009, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by NIN74 View Post

Wow! Do you have any pics on that?

it ain't pretty i can tell you. he posts on audiocircle.com and his name John Casler.
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post #14 of 322 Old 05-06-2009, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithR View Post

i have a dealer friend (VMPS) who uses a ton of foam on the outsides of his speakers in order to suck up resonance. basically, he has created a room inside of his room on the speaker side, as well as the listening side--its sounds pretty neat actually to have almost zero reflections.

An interesting thing is to simply turn up the volume of the speakers and, if you have a door in the right place, directly behind the primary listening position, step back through it and hear most all of the room being blocked from what you hear. I've done this a lot since that was how my listening rooms were setup (not on purpose though).
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when he came over to see my Sophias, he was amazed at how little/no acoustic energy was coming off the sides of the speakers, even at high volumes. he said this was the first speaker that it did not happen.

Well, dipoles certainly do this. But if there isn't energy coming off the side of a 'monopole' design, this is not necessarily a good thing.

John
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post #15 of 322 Old 05-06-2009, 10:17 PM
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Right, Wilson's "science" is meaningless w/o dimensions of the samples used.

And why not monotonic? The goal is nonotonic.

Noah
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post #16 of 322 Old 05-06-2009, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

And why not monotonic? The goal is nonotonic.

Not only that, but it's better to have a few low resonance peaks than a single high resonance one.

This is the difference between an engineering driven company and a marketing driven company, IMO. When you're truly at the cutting edge, you don't have to withhold important details or just make stuff up.

First day of advertising class, the professor said "anyone here think they're honest people? Okay, get out, this class isn't for you. I'm going to teach you how to convince people of a lie without ever telling an untruth". Of course, that fascinated me, so I stayed and learned a bundle.

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post #17 of 322 Old 05-07-2009, 02:23 AM
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Imagine how many more F-22s the USAF could afford to build if Lockheed Martin switched to MDF construction!! I wish they were not so set in their ways!!! The fools!!

One of you should write your congressman.
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post #18 of 322 Old 05-07-2009, 04:07 AM
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aluminum can be welded and filled for bullet holes

can the new mdf do that? if unsuitable glue is used will mdf crack or disintegrate ?

enlighten me please.

cpu8088 - OLD and SLOW !!!
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post #19 of 322 Old 05-07-2009, 04:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sierraalphahotel View Post

Imagine how many more F-22s the USAF could afford to build if Lockheed Martin switched to MDF construction!! I wish they were not so set in their ways!!! The fools!!

One of you should write your congressman.

If it was good enough for the Spruce Goose, it's good enough for the USAF

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post #20 of 322 Old 05-07-2009, 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted by cpu8088 View Post

aluminum can be welded and filled for bullet holes

can the new mdf do that? if unsuitable glue is used will mdf crack or disintegrate ?

enlighten me please.

Listen, this ain't no Home Depo MDF; this is Wilson's proprietary blend we are talking about! How are you even going to get a shot at this bird? Reports suggest that Wilson can make their products so good that they 'disappear'

Inefficient, lengthy and expensive studies will be done and solutions will be found to the problems you speak of! You should feel safe; you are in expert hands!!!

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post #21 of 322 Old 05-07-2009, 06:59 AM
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I don't think Wilson speakers show up on many people's radar. Make something expensive enough and ugly enough and it naturally becomes difficult to see

John
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post #22 of 322 Old 05-07-2009, 08:26 AM - Thread Starter
 
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A good friend, has been struggling with his W/P 8 ever since he upgraded them from the 7. I must say that to my ears as well, the 7 sounded much better. The funny thing is that he is now considering the Sasha. That is how I got to read Wilson spin. Do not get me wrong, he is an intelligent guy and all, but when it comes to his Wilson, he is a fanatic cult follower. A rational thinker, would have a hard time considering another upgrade on a product he already got screwed on once. But not a Wilson believer. He will order the new speakers sight unseen. In the process, he will lose tens of thousands of $s and will have no real guaranty that it will be any better. In fact, as history repeats itself, and based on the BS I read on their site, it's a likely scenario.
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post #23 of 322 Old 05-07-2009, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banzinn View Post

wilsonaudio.com/sasha/science

According to his new spin, MDF is actually more rigid then Aluminum 6061-T6 Aircraft Grade. A new era, indeed!! Perhaps not just cheaper speakers but also, cheaper airplanes?

I am not reading that claim in their report. This is what they say:

"The ideal loudspeaker enclosure will be highly rigid, highly damped, and monotonic. "

They are saying you must try to optimize all three. For aircraft, I don't think the last two matter. Weight is paramount in airplanes whereas it is not in speakers. We also want non-flamable material for aircraft. And have to have waterproof material. So for all of these reasons, MDF is not a good material for airplane. Nor do they recommend otherwise, unless you are going to try to make your speakers fly .

Anyway, you can pick on them not describing the thickness and configuration used for the test as noted. But let's not use analogies which don't follow what they are saying...

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post #24 of 322 Old 05-07-2009, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

But let's not use analogies which don't follow what they are saying...

Perhaps you need to read it more carefully. Aluminum (6061-T6 Aircraft Grade) is the real curiosity here.poor rigidity. Based on the way he is interpreting these plots, that is exactly what he is saying.
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post #25 of 322 Old 05-07-2009, 09:15 AM
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hey, I'm all about constructive criticism but some of you wankers have seriously gone off the deep end.

Someone please show me where the Sasha is being made out of MDF!
And yet half of these responses here seem to assume that it is. Sheesh.

You dont have to like Wilson. You dont have to respect their philosophy. But to go on and on with baseless claims and untruths is starting to get a little irritating.
If you are a Wilson hater, great, go on with your bad self. But the least you could do is do it with a little intelectual honesty.

I've seen their facilities and practices and I can tell you, all you who think Wilson is nothing more than a marketing company, you are way off mark here.
I can say this without a hint of bias because the truth with me is that there are other speakers that I like better and own istead of Wilson. But I respect what they do because I have seen it up front.
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post #26 of 322 Old 05-07-2009, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Right, Wilson's "science" is meaningless w/o dimensions of the samples used.

noah,

WRONG!!! The term "rigidity" is what is confusing you. The real term that should have
been used by Wilson is Young's Modulus - which is the ratio of stress to strain in the
elastic deformation part of a material's stress strain curve [ prior to the onset of plastic
deformation at the yield point].

THAT is the quantity that is related to resonances. [ I can forgive Wilson for using the
term "rigidity" because most people don't know what Young's Modulus means ].

Young's Modulus is INDEPENDENT of the dimensions. So Wilson is correct here.

One of my professors in material science also had perfect pitch. He also had memorized
the relationship between Young's Modulus and frequency. You could hand him a piece of
metal which he would rap on the table or whatever, listen to the ring; and then give you a
pretty good estimate of the value for Young's Modulus. They actually make laboratory
equipment that can do what my professor did with just his brain and ears:

http://www.itma.es/ing/02/equipamien...nometal58.html

Dr. Gregory Greenman
Physicist
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post #27 of 322 Old 05-07-2009, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by HWoo View Post

BTW, to those who questioned Wilson state of mind in regards to the competition, please watch http://www.wilsonaudio.com/sasha/history_movie.html. If this is not a “reactive” panic mode, I am not sure what is. A frontal attack on the newcomer. Quite funny (Or desperate??), I must say.


I'm sorry, but this has GOT to be a top contender for one of the most moronic things I've ever seen posted in a forum.
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post #28 of 322 Old 05-07-2009, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Champ04 View Post

I'm sorry, but this has GOT to be a top contender for one of the most moronic things I've ever seen posted in a forum.

Champ04,

And THAT'S saying something - if you've followed this forum for any length of time....

Dr. Gregory Greenman
Physicist
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post #29 of 322 Old 05-07-2009, 09:26 AM
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Okay, I actually havent been following for that long.
But its all context, right? haha.
For me, right now, it ranks up there.
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post #30 of 322 Old 05-07-2009, 09:28 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

But let's not use analogies which don't follow what they are saying...


And if you have any doubt, go read Johnmaxx, a Wilson employee, statements on Audiogon. He is talking about material X which is a phenolic resin based material being much stiffer and harder than aluminum. Although, stronger then MDF, phenolic resin board are not much stiffer. But Johnmaxx, a Wilson engineer, do not seems to understand even basic things like the differences between material strength and stiffness. These guys are rewriting physics. I am sure they will find some reviewers, like that guy from Soundstage, which I just finished reading his Maxx 3 review (I am on a Wilson spree now), that will be more than willing to spread the new gospel. Before you know it, we will be flying in MDF Aircraft.
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