Oppo BDP-83 Vs. Denon DVD-A1UDCI - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 340 Old 06-13-2009, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I should also add that I don't consider jitter a factor in movie viewing no matter how high-end the system...

well that about sums it up for me. Ill likely skip over every thread and conversation as it relates to HT and jitter moving forward. Thanks for saving me loads of time Amir. If you ever come to Vancouver again i owe you a beer.
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post #92 of 340 Old 06-13-2009, 01:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

OP asked for objective data on whether such things are audible. Sad thing is that even if there were, it would be of no value ot him. I can assure him that there is not a test in the world that would indicate whether he can hear jitter in his room with his ears. That combination has never or will ever be tested

I'm not concerned about the application of the jitter to my particular situation, but if there is a scientifically valid chance it could be heard in some conditions, I would want to know and read the research. I may decide to buy the better unit on the chance that the jitter could be audible in my situation.

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post #93 of 340 Old 06-13-2009, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I should also add that I don't consider jitter a factor in movie viewing no matter how high-end the system...

What about concert viewing, i.e. Blu-Ray movie concerts? What if you turn the video off and just listen to the Blu-Ray concert?

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post #94 of 340 Old 06-13-2009, 01:14 PM - Thread Starter
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The only advantage between the Denon and the Oppo is the Blu-Ray Master clock, so it is looking less and less worthwhile to spend the extra money to me.

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post #95 of 340 Old 06-13-2009, 01:17 PM
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For the record, I never said the cause of the differences between the Oppo and the Carmen was due to jitter, just that the difference exists. Same goes for the 09FD using analogue vs HDMI. Also remember that I own the Oppo, and that my guest listeners dearly wanted the Oppo to hold its own. These were men who wanted to buy the Oppo because of its great value and reputation as well as its functionality (speed,) but just couldn't after evaluation vs the Elite & Carmen. I still consider it the best choice for 90+% of users, and clearly the tops under $2000. A definite best buy. Regards, Norm
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post #96 of 340 Old 06-13-2009, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

No, in both cases, the jitter from the player shows up in the output. That is because in both cases the clock is extracted from HDMI and any jitter on that link shows up on the output.

Well I guess, by strict definition you'll always have jitter, since there's no such thing as a perfect clock signal with zero deviation (although the deviation may exceed the resolution of the measuring device)...but in handling of data packets (whether HDMI, USB, SATA, etc) jitter is remediated to remove all errors (or is that not true of HDMI?)....so maybe I should have qualified "jitter" as something that would introduce audible jitter...?

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post #97 of 340 Old 06-13-2009, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I should also add that I don't consider jitter a factor in movie viewing no matter how high-end the system...

No question.

Or a live concert (considering the typically crude live recording practices).

Jitter is a non-issue for home theater.

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post #98 of 340 Old 06-13-2009, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Or a live concert (considering the typically crude live recording practices).

Jitter is a non-issue for home theater.

Since I regularly view very carefully-produced opera/concert/chamber music DVDs, audible jitter (if present to the point where it is actually discernible) wouldn't be a non-issue for my HT.

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post #99 of 340 Old 06-13-2009, 05:01 PM
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Load Times comparison

Using Dark Knight. The JVC times are in blue and the Oppo times in black. Also, times are in seconds unless otherwise noted:

ALL ARE FROM A TRAY OPEN POSITION
  1. to Piracy Screen - 20, 16 (Panasonic BD30- 42, Denon DVD-A1UD- 47)
  2. to Warner Brother logo - 32, 28 (Panasonic BD30- 57, Denon DVD-A1UD- 1.07)
  3. to beginning of movie - 1:13, 1:07 (Panasonic BD30- 1.51, Denon DVD-A1UD- 2.26)

The only downside, besides price, I can see to the DVD-A1UD.
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post #100 of 340 Old 06-13-2009, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

Just read the article.

Kal, any idea why the DSD output via HDMI between the two players would sound slightly different?

None whatever. Did not even speculate.

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post #101 of 340 Old 06-13-2009, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by vancouver View Post

well that about sums it up for me. Ill likely skip over every thread and conversation as it relates to HT and jitter moving forward. Thanks for saving me loads of time Amir. If you ever come to Vancouver again i owe you a beer.

. That was a fun trip. Including Kevin getting nearly arrested and detained as he tried to enter Canada! The concept of coming to visit your customers in person appeared to be foreign to the border patrol....

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post #102 of 340 Old 06-13-2009, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by rider View Post

but in handling of data packets (whether HDMI, USB, SATA, etc) jitter is remediated to remove all errors (or is that not true of HDMI?)....

The case of HDMI/synchronous USB audio is one where one gets rid of the jitter at first, and then adds it back in!

You are right that data extraction over HDMI/USB is immune to jitter (up to failure point). In case of video, we send out digital data out to the display and as such jitter is a non-issue.

In case of audio, those perfectly captured, jitter-free samples must now be converted to analog voltages one at a time. That conversion needs a clock to define when we do that. And that clock, is derived from the HDMI or USB clock. So jitter winds up on the output (although filtered some by the PLL). Additional jitter also gets added by the processor itself.

For USB, only devices which use a local clock and/or implement asynch transfer can avoid really bad jitter which shows up on that bus.
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so maybe I should have qualified "jitter" as something that would introduce audible jitter...?

There is no universal agreement on what is audible. What we can do is consider what kind of jitter has more chance of being audible.

The typical spec given for jitter is useless in that it only provides the magnitude of jitter (expressed in picoseconds). To know how bad jitter is, we need to know its frequency. For example, a 100 Hz jitter is likely to be far less audible than a 2 KHz one, even if its magnitude is higher. This is due to masking effect.

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post #103 of 340 Old 06-13-2009, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

What about concert viewing, i.e. Blu-Ray movie concerts? What if you turn the video off and just listen to the Blu-Ray concert?

I personally care about the fidelity of concerts in these situations so it does matter to me but might not to everyone. And yes, turning off the video circuits helps although HDMI does not work without a video clock. So you would need to feed a different audio connection to make that work.

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post #104 of 340 Old 06-13-2009, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

Another one for the ignore list. Good riddance. I hope you feel better after crying yourself to sleep tonight!

Q, you were doing so well with your last few posts in this thread, using no words like "stupid", "ignoramus", etc.

But then you just had to do the above post.

Come on. You can do better my friend. Don't let the "jitter" get to you!!

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post #105 of 340 Old 06-13-2009, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

. That was a fun trip. Including Kevin getting nearly arrested and detained as he tried to enter Canada! The concept of coming to visit your customers in person appeared to be foreign to the border patrol....

Yup, format war...the gold old days. Seriously though it was a very cool go to market strategy. Very exciting time to be in this hobbby.
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post #106 of 340 Old 06-13-2009, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

Q, you were doing so well with your last few posts in this thread, using no words like "stupid", "ignoramus", etc.

But then you just had to do the above post.

Come on. You can do better my friend. Don't let the "jitter" get to you!!

Apparently the OP feels that a thread he starts becomes his personal domain to indulge in arrogant name-calling temper tantrums....

I personally recommend the blocking feature: now lonely DougWinsor finally has some company on my blocked list

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post #107 of 340 Old 06-13-2009, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

In case of audio, those perfectly captured, jitter-free samples must now be converted to analog voltages one at a time. That conversion needs a clock to define when we do that. And that clock, is derived from the HDMI or USB clock. So jitter winds up on the output (although filtered some by the PLL).

I'm probably being dense here (and apologies to others if this is fixating too much on detail)...but I'm not seeing how all data on the HDMI received from the source - including the clock - is not perfectly intact prior to decoding. I understand various jitters introduced in successive stages of decoding and D/A conversion, but isn't that all produced by the processor?

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post #108 of 340 Old 06-13-2009, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rider View Post

I'm probably being dense here (and apologies to others if this is fixating too much on detail)...but I'm not seeing how all data on the HDMI received from the source - including the clock - is not perfectly intact prior to decoding. I understand various jitters introduced in successive stages of decoding and D/A conversion, but isn't that all produced by the processor?

As I said it is non-intuitive so naturally it is a bit hard to follow .

Assuming HDMI clock has 1% timing error.

Assume that the HDMI receiver, can handle 5% timing error. Anything less than that means that the data can be captured perfectly. So, we are able to recover all the samples.

Now, we need to output those samples. We can't just send them as fast we can. If the source sample rate is 48Khz (typical for movies), we need to output 48,000 samples per second. So that is where the clock comes in.

Where do we get a clock? Well, we can make one and while at it, make it highly accurate. But this won't work. Why? Because "48KHz" is the nominal sampling rate of the input audio. In reality, we could be off by one or two samples every few seconds. In other words, the data rate of the audio stored on BD disc might be 47.9995 Khz, and not 48KHz exactly.

If we use our local clock, we would be outputing samples too fast if the input is 47.9995 instead of 48 Khz. And by doing so, the audio will get ahead of video and we lose sync.

Simple solution then is to not create a local clock but to use the HDMI clock and drive our sample rate from that. Since HDMI "speaks the truth" regarding how fast we could output the samples, then we stay in lockstep with video.

With me so far?

OK, now if the HDMI video has a 1% timing error, a percentage of that winds up on our output audio clock because we are deriving our clock from that. Since the data was not digitized with the same exact timing error, we have now introduced distortion into our our audio stream (sampling theory only works if the two timings are exact).

More sophisticated solutions exists. One can use a PLL (phase locked loop) which allows a clock circuit to vary but have a precise source for its core frequency. This filters some of the jitter from the source. Alas, a single PLL can't filter it all. So another solution calls for using two PLLs and together, they can get rid of much of the jitter. Good circuit design expertise is needed though to get this right.

Hope this is more clear now.

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post #109 of 340 Old 06-13-2009, 09:15 PM
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I should add that you were right on with respect to your second point. Even if we filter out all the jitter from the original clock, we must still be careful that we don't introduce new jitter in the processor. For example, digital activity in the processor can cause circuit variations which cause timing errors in the DAC PLL. Even simple things like the high voltage inverter for the front panel display might cause this kind of problem! So be sure to turn off anything you don't need to be on.

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post #110 of 340 Old 06-13-2009, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

As I said it is non-intuitive so naturally it is a bit hard to follow .

Assuming HDMI clock has 1% timing error.

Assume that the HDMI receiver, can handle 5% timing error. Anything less than that means that the data can be captured perfectly. So, we are able to recover all the samples.

Now, we need to output those samples. We can't just send them as fast we can. If the source sample rate is 48Khz (typical for movies), we need to output 48,000 samples per second. So that is where the clock comes in.

Where do we get a clock? Well, we can make one and while at it, make it highly accurate. But this won't work. Why? Because "48KHz" is the nominal sampling rate of the input audio. In reality, we could be off by one or two samples every few seconds. In other words, the data rate of the audio stored on BD disc might be 47.9995 Khz, and not 48KHz exactly.

If we use our local clock, we would be outputing samples too fast if the input is 47.9995 instead of 48 Khz. And by doing so, the audio will get ahead of video and we lose sync.

Simple solution then is to not create a local clock but to use the HDMI clock and drive our sample rate from that. Since HDMI "speaks the truth" regarding how fast we could output the samples, then we stay in lockstep with video.

With me so far?

OK, now if the HDMI video has a 1% timing error, a percentage of that winds up on our output audio clock because we are deriving our clock from that. Since the data was not digitized with the same exact timing error, we have now introduced distortion into our our audio stream (sampling theory only works if the two timings are exact).

More sophisticated solutions exists. One can use a PLL (phase locked loop) which allows a clock circuit to vary but have a precise source for its core frequency. This filters some of the jitter from the source. Alas, a single PLL can't filter it all. So another solution calls for using two PLLs and together, they can get rid of much of the jitter. Good circuit design expertise is needed though to get this right.

Hope this is more clear now.

Thanks - everything is very clear except for your beginning premise: the 1% HDMI timing error. You mentioned that since the clocks (audio and video) for decoding are derived from the HDMI data, a percentage of that 1% error would be present in the derived clocks - but where did that original 1% HDMI timing error come from? Is this created as the player assembles the binary disc data into HDMI packets? If so, that would mean that a player has the ability to introduce jitter into the originating HDMI bitstream, which consequently leads to timing errors in the processor's derived clocks....? (i.e., all players are not equal)

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post #111 of 340 Old 06-13-2009, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rider View Post

Thanks - everything is very clear except for your beginning premise: the 1% HDMI timing error. You mentioned that since the clocks (audio and video) for decoding are derived from the HDMI data, a percentage of that 1% error would be present in the derived clocks - but where did that original 1% HDMI timing error come from? Is this created as the player assembles the binary disc data into HDMI packets? If so, that would mean that a player has the ability to introduce jitter into the originating HDMI bitstream, which consequently leads to timing errors in the processor's derived clocks....? (i.e., all players are not equal)

Yes. You are on the right track. Ultimately, something has to create the HDMI clock. That clock, like many things in life, can't be perfect. Temperature, voltage, radio frequency changes and even vibrations can lead to slight changes in the accuracy of the clock.

If you look at the spectrum of the jitter in magazine reviews, you can often see the cause. For example a jitter component at 60 Hz is from A/C line voltage. Some amount of noise not filtered in the process of AC to DC conversion winds up all the way on the output of the clock and hence the DAC! Similarly, there can be components related the video scan frequency or that of the signal processing clock. Or the electroluminescent display driver frequency.

So from purely technical and analytical point of view, no two sources are alike even if they are both digital. Even two units of the same assembly line could have different measured characteristics when it comes to jitter. Heck, even the instrument we use to measure is subject to variations!

At the extreme, the process is not digital but analog. Timing of the samples is based on analog precision. As such, one cannot treat the system as predictable as a computer. It is so until the moment we have to convert the samples into audio and then, we become a analog system, subject to all the issues of such systems. Add to this the fact that we are dealing with such precise sample resolution (16+ bits) and one realizes that we are dealing with laboratory grade precision if we are to stay true to what the signal represents - something that is hard to get out of a cheap box, designed by someone who didn't understand the above factors.

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post #112 of 340 Old 06-13-2009, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Yes. You are on the right track. Ultimately, something has to create the HDMI clock. That clock, like many things in life, can’t be perfect. Temperature, voltage, radio frequency changes and even vibrations can lead to slight changes in the accuracy of the clock.

If you look at the spectrum of the jitter in magazine reviews, you can often see the cause. For example a jitter component at 60 Hz is from A/C line voltage. Some amount of noise not filtered in the process of AC to DC conversion winds up all the way on the output of the clock and hence the DAC! Similarly, there can be components related the video scan frequency or that of the signal processing clock. Or the electroluminescent display driver frequency.

So from purely technical and analytical point of view, no two sources are alike even if they are both “digital”. Even two units of the same assembly line could have different measured characteristics when it comes to jitter. Heck, even the instrument we use to measure is subject to variations!

At the extreme, the process is not digital but analog. Timing of the samples is based on analog precision. As such, one cannot treat the system as predictable as a computer. It is so until the moment we have to convert the samples into audio and then, we become a analog system, subject to all the issues of such systems. Add to this the fact that we are dealing with such precise sample resolution (16+ bits) and one realizes that we are dealing with laboratory grade precision if we are to stay true to what the signal represents – something that is hard to get out of a cheap box, designed by someone who didn’t understand the above factors.

Got it - thanks.

Sooo.....is it safe to assume that all players from the major mfgs (Pioneer, Panasonic, Samsung, Denon....) and up (Arcam, etc) will be well-enough implemented so that, even through a hi-end audio system, whatever jitter the players incorporate into their HDMI bitstream will be ultimately below the threshold of detection/hearing? Or is that an un-answerable question....?

Edit: let me qualify that to include well-recorded/mastered performance music A/V discs, not just movie soundtracks or crappy live-concert recordings...

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post #113 of 340 Old 06-13-2009, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rider View Post

Sooo.....is it safe to assume that all players from the major mfgs (Pioneer, Panasonic, Samsung, Denon....) and up (Arcam, etc) will be well-enough implemented so that, even through a hi-end audio system, whatever jitter the players incorporate into their HDMI bitstream will be ultimately below the threshold of detection/hearing? Or is that an un-answerable question....?

If you phrase it that way, it is may be unanswerable. At least without a lof of fist fighting . So let me explain it this way.

There is likely significant difference in jitter in the HDMI output of players from mass market manufactures. Indeed, most will have better performance on S/PDIF than they do on HDMI. See this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1134289

Denon AVR-3803A
---------------
SPDIF: 560psec
HDMI: 3700psec

Onkyo TX-NR906
---------------
SPDIF: 470psec
HDMI: 3860psec

Pioneer SC-LX81
---------------
SPDIF: 37psec
HDMI: 50psec

Yamaha RX-V3900
---------------
SPDIF: 183psec
HDMI: 7660psec

Strictly speaking, to reproduce 20 Khz at full intensity, you need jitter less than 250 psec. But read the thread for more detail, arguments, bickering, etc. on the topic .

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post #114 of 340 Old 06-13-2009, 11:47 PM
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There is likely significant difference in jitter in the HDMI output of players from mass market manufactures. Indeed, most will have better performance on S/PDIF than they do on HDMI.

Strictly speaking, to reproduce 20 Khz at full intensity, you need jitter less than 250 psec.

It would be interesting to see jitter measurement comparisons on Blu-ray players....but is there any way to measure only the jitter "encoded" into the HDMI bitstream by a player (i.e., isolate that jitter from whatever jitter is created by the decoder's derivation of the clock)?

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post #115 of 340 Old 06-13-2009, 11:49 PM
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post #116 of 340 Old 06-14-2009, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by rider View Post

It would be interesting to see jitter measurement comparisons on Blu-ray players....but is there any way to measure only the jitter "encoded" into the HDMI bitstream by a player (i.e., isolate that jitter from whatever jitter is created by the decoder's derivation of the clock)?

Sure. There is test equipment which measures HDMI jitter. Translating that into jitter that will be induced into the receiver clock though, may be difficult.

Come to think of it, it would be good to have this measurement as it would show how well implemented the HDMI port is as that impacts long length HDMI cables.

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post #117 of 340 Old 06-14-2009, 12:37 AM
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If you phrase it that way, it is may be unanswerable. At least without a lof of fist fighting . So let me explain it this way.

There is likely significant difference in jitter in the HDMI output of players from mass market manufactures. Indeed, most will have better performance on S/PDIF than they do on HDMI. See this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1134289

Denon AVR-3803A
---------------
SPDIF: 560psec
HDMI: 3700psec

Onkyo TX-NR906
---------------
SPDIF: 470psec
HDMI: 3860psec

Pioneer SC-LX81
---------------
SPDIF: 37psec
HDMI: 50psec

Yamaha RX-V3900
---------------
SPDIF: 183psec
HDMI: 7660psec

Strictly speaking, to reproduce 20 Khz at full intensity, you need jitter less than 250 psec. But read the thread for more detail, arguments, bickering, etc. on the topic .

Amirm, these jitter numbers would seem to validate our observations vis a vis HDMI, and Analogue out of the player, given an excellent D/A conversion and Analogue stage in the player. Regards, Norm
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post #118 of 340 Old 06-14-2009, 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by rider View Post

It would be interesting to see jitter measurement comparisons on Blu-ray players....but is there any way to measure only the jitter "encoded" into the HDMI bitstream by a player (i.e., isolate that jitter from whatever jitter is created by the decoder's derivation of the clock)?

Rider, if we can't measure it yet, maybe we can listen for it. Regards, Norm
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post #119 of 340 Old 06-14-2009, 12:47 AM
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Amirm, these jitter numbers would seem to validate our observations vis a vis HDMI, and Analogue out of the the player, given an excellent D/A conversion and Analogue stage in the player. Regards, Norm

Indeed. Science tends to back perceived difference there.

I highly suggest people do their own comparison between analog out from the player to AVR compared to HDMI (ditto for S/PDIF). At first blush, one wants to think the "digital" HDMI connection is better. But it might not.

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post #120 of 340 Old 06-14-2009, 01:43 AM
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Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post

Rider, if we can't measure it yet, maybe we can listen for it. Regards, Norm

As I said earlier in this thread, that's how I choose components - by listening. It can be interesting, and sometimes very informative (and sometimes not) to see certain measurements, too.

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