Oppo BDP-83 Vs. Denon DVD-A1UDCI - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 340 Old 06-21-2009, 04:47 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm reading conflicting info between the DVD-A1 manual and online interviews, though the interviews are very dated. Some of the interviews say thay SACD/DVD-A/CD are synched, but that HD audio is not...

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post #182 of 340 Old 06-21-2009, 04:54 AM
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I found this article, a bit dated

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/surro...er-review.html

snippet:

The Denon Link is another noteworthy feature. Because of copyright protection issues, it has been difficult to develop a method of sending SACD bitstreams (DSD) from players to processors. Denon simply designed their own connection, called the Denon Link, where DSD signals are encrypted, sent via the link to a Denon processor that has a Denon Link jack (the A1HDCI has it). The DSD signals are unencrypted, decoded, and played through the processor. With HDMI version 1.3a, SACD bitstreams are allowed, but I have found difficulties in getting it to work properly. The Denon Link, on the other hand, worked perfectly when I connected a Denon DVD-2930CI DVD player to the A1HDCI processor. Since that point, I have been catching up on all the multi-channel SACDs that I have accumulated over the years never had the chance to listen to them in full multi-channel DSD bitstream mode (dedicated SACD players are two-channel only, and for other systems, the DSD is converted to PCM before decoding and playing). Using the Denon Link, DSD bitstreams from an SACD remains DSD all the way through the processor until it is finally converted to analog for output to the power amplifier.
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post #183 of 340 Old 06-21-2009, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by sikoniko View Post

Having talked to Dave Nauber of Classe many times, I can say that the SSP800 was designed form the ground up to take ANY digital signal and make them virtually indistinguishable, outside of ones own psychoacoustical pre-conceptions. When looking at ANY pre/pro above the $5000 price mark, one would think that would be a given.

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Interesting what it says in the second paper, that DACs implement anti-jitter formulas internally to counteract jitter...

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Maybe a stupid question but why does this jitter list contain pre/pro's only except for the avp that is tested in combi with the 2500. Seems to me they are testing different things or atleast not using the same conditions. How is this tested anyway ?

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To measure jitter I assume one needs a scope?

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you know I read an interesting post in the last few days that talked about HDMI audio not sounding as good: except for Dolby True HD and DTS-MA: it may have been in this thread but not sure

Many modern receivers and processors already use high performance SRCs and DACs that have strong jitter rejection performance on the test bench with an ideal electrical environment, but realising that performance in real life seems to be a different matter. Getting jitter off the clock that feeds the DAC is one thing, but keeping noise and interference from all that high speed hardware off the power supplies and grounds used by the DACs etc is another matter, and I would speculate thats where manufacturers differ.

I love the idea of a digital hub that processes all the sources effectively, and can even improve on them with effective re-clocking, but it doesn't seem to be working out that way, even with the AVR600. I suspect the SSP800 might be the exception to that, but look at the resources needed.

Making jitter comparisons is difficult. The tests need very sophisticated equipment - see milleraudioresearch.com for the industry standard. Stereophile do many tests, but they usually do graphs rather than figures. I find the best source is Paul Millers tests in UK mag HiFi News, which is where I took my figures. There is a back catalogue of all previous tests if you sign up above, but I have summarised ALL the relevant recent test results I could find. All the pre-pro tests did use a BD player as a source, and I believe it was the DVD2500BTCI in most cases. This means the AVP-A1HD results are comparable with the rest, meaning OK with spdif, but not HDMI.

There's an informed consensus that jitter needs to be down to around 200ps to avoid degradation with 16/44.1 audio, and presumably rather less with 24 bit audio. When people want to "hear" jitter they often listen for sound, and are disappointed. I'd say you have to look for the soundstage - how clear and precise is the image and space?

Paul Miller did an interesting test with the BDP-91 / SC-07 recently. He compared jitter measurements with PQLS on and off. Even though they measure very well "off", PQLS made improvements both subjectively and with measurements. He didn't give p-p jitter measurements, but showed on graphs that PQLS reduces low frequency jitter by up to 20dB IIRC. PQLS. HATS and DL4 are a good solution to my mind, as there's only so much you can do with re-clocking. This is only low-pass filtering of the audio clock, but the DAC-master configuration is a less compromised solution, if you can have an industry standard.

DL4 might be intended for blu-ray soundtracks, but I believe it still works with CD, DVD and SACD over the ethernet connection, just as it did with DL3. So it should still keep that ideal configuration, where timing info goes backwards to the transport. I believe DL4 won't help DTS MA & DTHD bitstream, as they aren't hamstrung by the problem of HDMI jitter in the same way that LPCM is. Having said that, the best blu-ray audio that I heard wasn't from a system that used a bitstream connection, good as it was. The best I've heard so far is analogue audio direct from a Denon 3800BD, and thats why I think the A1UDCI analogue outputs might set the high bar.

Nick
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post #184 of 340 Old 06-21-2009, 05:39 AM - Thread Starter
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DL4 might be intended for blu-ray soundtracks, but I believe it still works with CD, DVD and SACD over the ethernet connection, just as it did with DL3. So it should still keep that ideal configuration, where timing info goes backwards to the transport. I believe DL4 won't help DTS MA & DTHD bitstream, as they aren't hamstrung by the problem of HDMI jitter in the same way that LPCM is. Having said that, the best blu-ray audio that I heard wasn't from a system that used a bitstream connection, good as it was. The best I've heard so far is analogue audio direct from a Denon 3800BD, and thats why I think the A1UDCI analogue outputs might set the high bar.

Nick

Thanks for the info on DL3 Nick. So, DL3 does synch and improve the audio? I was trying to find that kind of info on it but wasn't able to locate anything.

I know that the DVD-A1 manual says DL4 only works on BD and doesn't do anything for the rest of the output, but it doesn't mention the particulars of DL3.

If this is the case, I will definitely wait for the Denon DBP-4010UD I've been hearing about. I am not going to use the player for anything but a transport...

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post #185 of 340 Old 06-21-2009, 05:52 AM - Thread Starter
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I found an old Audioholics article that states that DL3 does indeed work on the jitter.

Now to see if I can manage to hear the jitter issues... Anyone have new/additional input on what I can do to try and hear it?

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post #186 of 340 Old 06-21-2009, 07:04 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm not hearing differences between analog in and HDMI, but with processing. Next I'll try analog vs. HDMI, with processing off and analog bypass engaged.

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post #187 of 340 Old 06-21-2009, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

Now to see if I can manage to hear the jitter issues... Anyone have new/additional input on what I can do to try and hear it?

Yes . Nick actually provided an indirect clue: soundstage.

Let's examine what jitter does to sound. If you see the graph I posted, it creates new fequencies that did not exit. Those frequencies therefore, raise the noise floor of the system. What happens when you do that? You destroy anything that exists at those levels or lower. Signals that are much louder are not affected.

So what you want to listen for, is quiet, and faint sounds, not the loud signals. This is an important lesson in digital versus analog. Digital systems are fantastic at playing maximum value because then the signal is well above its distortion product (created due to jitter in this case). Analog systems hate this as the higher the volume, the more distortion they create. Being analog instruments ourselves , we tend to test digital systems as if they were analog.

My test for jitter (or frankly, finding any other minute distortion) involves finding a sharp transient that decays into nothing gradually due to recording venue reflections. A single guitar note or symbol crash decaying over 2-5 seconds is perfect. Then using a headphone, I listen to that decay at elevated volumes (careful you don't go deaf when the rest of the music plays ). I have a set up with a headphone amp with dual input which makes it easy to do A/B tests (blindly if needed). But even without, you should be able to still peform the test reasonably well.

Now, listen to length of decay. A less ideal system will decay nicely as first and then there is a sharp end to the signal. The better system will decay smoothly into nothing. This decay becomes key to soundstage which was mentioned above. Without those reverbrations the soundstange compresses. In other words, soundstage is second order distortion.

Second effect to look for is accentuating high frequency. Recall that jitter creates new sidebands one of which is at higher frequency than the source. Therefore, it contributes to making the sound "brighter" (what audiophiles call "harsher").

Most importantly, you need to do this in A/B mode where the switchover hopefully is instantaneous. Anything over 4 seconds invalides the testing as your brain will not remember things that long. In my own testing, even 1 second switch over is too long.

To help with the test, I use the A-B mode of the source to keep repeating the segment I am interested in so that when I switch back and forth I can quickly hear the segment again.

Note that it will take you a while to hear jitter. It is a very illusive artifact as it comes and goes. And what it does is dynamic as it depends on what you are playing and masking effect.

My experience though is that once you "learn" to hear it, then it becomes much easier to find it, much like compression artifacts.

Amir
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post #188 of 340 Old 06-21-2009, 09:40 AM
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Amir

which headphones/ amp do you like please?
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post #189 of 340 Old 06-21-2009, 10:21 AM
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Amir

which headphones/ amp do you like please?

Stax: any model although as you go up the chain, it keeps getting better: http://www.stax.co.jp/index-E.html. Even their cheapest one though is a complete class above anything else. I think the cheapest one is $600 and goes up to $5000 or so for the differnetial tube unit that I have. I like them so much that I have three different units .

Next would be Sennheiser which is the standard in recording industry. The model I used to like is not made anymore. But the 650 seems close: http://www.sennheiser.com/sennheiser...ile-headphones. From what I recall, it cost about $300.

And if you want something that is akin to tube amps in headphone world, it would be Grado. They sound very musical and are dirt cheap. The $70 units are the standard people use for audio codec testing/development for example. Model 80 is the one I used to have but some people are happy with even model 60: http://www.gradolabs.com/frameset_main.htm

I am also a fan of in-ear high-quality units. The Sure that I have, if seated properly in the ear, does wonders. I use it only on airplane and on the run though. Price is $200. I have tried others but they fit my ear well.

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post #190 of 340 Old 06-21-2009, 11:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Yes . Nick actually provided an indirect clue: soundstage.

Let's examine what jitter does to sound. If you see the graph I posted, it creates new fequencies that did not exit. Those frequencies therefore, raise the noise floor of the system. What happens when you do that? You destroy anything that exists at those levels or lower. Signals that are much louder are not affected.

So what you want to listen for, is quiet, and faint sounds, not the loud signals. This is an important lesson in digital versus analog. Digital systems are fantastic at playing maximum value because then the signal is well above its distortion product (created due to jitter in this case). Analog systems hate this as the higher the volume, the more distortion they create. Being analog instruments ourselves , we tend to test digital systems as if they were analog.

My test for jitter (or frankly, finding any other minute distortion) involves finding a sharp transient that decays into nothing gradually due to recording venue reflections. A single guitar note or symbol crash decaying over 2-5 seconds is perfect. Then using a headphone, I listen to that decay at elevated volumes (careful you don't go deaf when the rest of the music plays ). I have a set up with a headphone amp with dual input which makes it easy to do A/B tests (blindly if needed). But even without, you should be able to still peform the test reasonably well.

Now, listen to length of decay. A less ideal system will decay nicely as first and then there is a sharp end to the signal. The better system will decay smoothly into nothing. This decay becomes key to soundstage which was mentioned above. Without those reverbrations the soundstange compresses. In other words, soundstage is second order distortion.

Second effect to look for is accentuating high frequency. Recall that jitter creates new sidebands one of which is at higher frequency than the source. Therefore, it contributes to making the sound "brighter" (what audiophiles call "harsher").

Most importantly, you need to do this in A/B mode where the switchover hopefully is instantaneous. Anything over 4 seconds invalides the testing as your brain will not remember things that long. In my own testing, even 1 second switch over is too long.

To help with the test, I use the A-B mode of the source to keep repeating the segment I am interested in so that when I switch back and forth I can quickly hear the segment again.

Note that it will take you a while to hear jitter. It is a very illusive artifact as it comes and goes. And what it does is dynamic as it depends on what you are playing and masking effect.

My experience though is that once you "learn" to hear it, then it becomes much easier to find it, much like compression artifacts.

I'm aware of what I should be listening for, but I'm not hearing any differences in the comparisons I'm making. I've also taken the David Moulton Golden Ears Course, so I know what compression artifacts and distortion sound like (among other things...).

I'm not asking what to listen for, but rather what other kinds of input tests I can try. I haven't done a pure analog vs. HDMI comparison yet, only processed signals, so I will try that next. If I don't hear a difference, that leaves a few options that I can think of off the top of my head. One, that my system doesn't lower the noise floor enough to show the the jitter. Two, that the DACs internally take care of the left over jitter using the algorithms previously mentioned in one of the paper links (this certainly seems feasible to me at the levels of jitter we are talking about). Three, that jitter at this level with normal listening material just isn't audible on speakers (maybe it would be on headphones, but perhaps not with speakers).

Of course, being as obsessed as I am with my system, I'll probably end up buying one of the Denon components for the DL3 and DL4 anyway, at which point I will see if I hear a difference then as well...

The decay of sounds on my system is extraordinary. Sometimes I sit and just listen to the reverb effects coming off movies and music to enjoy the venues themselves, rather than the music. I find it quite fascinating.

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post #191 of 340 Old 06-21-2009, 11:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

Amir

which headphones/ amp do you like please?

I use AKG 701s with Music Fidelity X-Can V3 and a Denon DVD-5910. I also have some Shure 530s which are excellent for ear bud listening...

If you are in the market for ear phones/buds definitely check them out.

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post #192 of 340 Old 06-21-2009, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

I found an old Audioholics article that states that DL3 does indeed work on the jitter.

Now to see if I can manage to hear the jitter issues... Anyone have new/additional input on what I can do to try and hear it?

Here's a collection of what others have said jitter is supposed to sound like:

Quote:


If the jitter becomes to high, it becomes audible. The sound is often described as 'coarse'.

Quote:


In general I find jitter to cause a loss in "inner detail" which usually relates to a "flatter" sound. It looses the "liveness", it becomes boring. Sometimes I find jitter also effects bass significantly. This is strange because I would expect high frequencies to be more susceptible, but I frequently hear a significant improvement in bass articulation when decreasing jitter.

Quote:


I think modern day jitter artifacts sounds like glasses on versus glasses off.

Quote:


Anyone who has watched an old 8 mm home movie made with a cheap camera has probably noticed that the picture flickers. That "flicker" is the film analogy to jitter. An image that flickers causes video fatigue just as listening to a jittery CD player causes audio fatigue, and perhaps one could say that this fatigue is itself evidence for the audibility of jitter.

Quote:


Jitter can sound different depending on the clock that sources the stream to the D/A, but in general in my system it sounds like a "veiling" or for a visual analogy, a film on the window that I'm trying to look out. The glasses on, glasses off analog is a very good one too....What happens with jitter is the transient response is "smeared" and defocused. It's mostly high frequencies affected.

A visual interpretation of jitter:


- Tim


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post #193 of 340 Old 06-21-2009, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

The decay of sounds on my system is extraordinary. Sometimes I sit and just listen to the reverb effects coming off movies and music to enjoy the venues themselves, rather than the music. I find it quite fascinating.

Hey Q, be careful posting like this. Someone might accuse you of being an *audiophile*!
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Hey Q, be careful posting like this. Someone might accuse you of being an *audiophile*!

Environmental ambience effects are audio porn!!!

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Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post


I'm not asking what to listen for, but rather what other kinds of input tests I can try.

"Can you hear jitter?" - tests you can take for yourself

http://hddaudio.net/?p=393

http://hddaudio.net/?p=460

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post #196 of 340 Old 06-21-2009, 12:21 PM - Thread Starter
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"Can you hear jitter?" - tests you can take for yourself

http://hddaudio.net/?p=393

http://hddaudio.net/?p=460

On Come Away With Me, I can't hear a difference. If I had to guess, I would say that sample b sounded the best, but every time I thought I found something to latch onto that sounded like it could be off, I checked the other samples and they sounded the same... This was using my Shure 530s and Apple MacBook Pro 17".

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post #197 of 340 Old 06-21-2009, 12:38 PM
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On Come Away With Me, I can't hear a difference. If I had to guess, I would say that sample b sounded the best, but every time I thought I found something to latch onto that sounded like it could be off, I checked the other samples and they sounded the same... This was using my Shure 530s and Apple MacBook Pro 17".

PM'd you the answer. (And will do the same for anyone else that want's to take a stab at it.)

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Environmental ambience effects are audio porn!!!

Q, I didn't know you had a bit of coldmachine's poetry in you!
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PM'd you the answer. (And will do the same for anyone else that want's to take a stab at it.)

I am actually not sure which I chose as the best sounding. In my initial response I said "c," but I changed it to "b" because when I reopened iTunes "b" was were "c" was previously located. I just opened it again, and it moved them around again... So I guess I chose "c" originally (as per the original server notification sent out), but I can't be certain anymore.

I really couldn't tell with any certainty which was which.

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I'll try it with the other samples (1,2,3,4 & 5) and make sure I track it better...

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post #201 of 340 Old 06-21-2009, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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I can't tell...

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post #202 of 340 Old 06-21-2009, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

I can't tell...

One man that claims to hear a difference suggests that you listen to the track through speakers and pay attention to imaging.

Quote:


I notice it in the imaging of high-frequencies mostly. Should be pin-point in my system. When a cymbol seems to be 3 feet wide, this is jitter. When a vocalists head is 2 feet wide, this is jitter.

You must have your system dialed-in though. The speaker positioning and acoustic treatments must deliver pin-point imaging. Your components must have very low jitter, noise and distortion.

Personally, I find the whole jitter thang falls into the area of minutiae that I can't be bothered with, but if you want to keep at it, I can give you the answers when you feel like making decision.

- Tim


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post #203 of 340 Old 06-21-2009, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

One man that claims to hear a difference suggests that you listen to the track through speakers and pay attention to imaging.

I'll have to try it later. I'm watching my kids right now, so I had to use the headphones on the computer. I suspect I won't hear a difference, as I was listening for that earlier between the 250ps and 2,200ps. If it were noticeable at 250ps, it would be hellacious at 2200ps due to the magnitude of difference. Those two jitter numbers are well below the 10ns (10,000ps - nearly 4.6 times 2,200ps) mark of the lesser jitter samples (besides the 0 jitter sample, of course).

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post #204 of 340 Old 06-21-2009, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
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I tried everything; I listened carefully at all kinds of different details; I relaxed and just tried to take it all in at once; I skipped between them starting at the same points; I started them over and over for the first two seconds or so.

Now I have a headache...

Time to re-up on the caffeine!

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post #205 of 340 Old 06-21-2009, 01:35 PM
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I just want to throw this out there.. I don't know the answer...

could Audyssey be concealing any perceivable differences? try disabling it and see if you can tell a difference between the inputs...

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post #206 of 340 Old 06-21-2009, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

I tried everything; I listened carefully at all kinds of different details; I relaxed and just tried to take it all in at once; I skipped between them starting at the same points; I started them over and over for the first two seconds or so.

Now I have a headache...

Time to re-up on the caffeine!

This is what makes this hobby fun!

Don't hurt yourself.

- Tim


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post #207 of 340 Old 06-21-2009, 01:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sikoniko View Post

I just want to throw this out there.. I don't know the answer...

could Audyssey be concealing any perceivable differences? try disabling it and see if you can tell a difference between the inputs...

That is what the analog bypass and HDMI bypass comparison will do; it will remove the Audyssey curves and just output the uncorrected signal. I have to wait until I put the kids to bed though...

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post #208 of 340 Old 06-22-2009, 06:01 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm not hearing any glaring difference between the analog in bypass (direct) mode and the HDMI in direct mode. Direct/bypass meaning bypassing all DSP except the conversion process from Digital to Analog for the HDMI. By "glaring difference" I mean I can't tell the difference between the two...

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post #209 of 340 Old 06-22-2009, 06:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Turning the DSP back on I hear a nice difference in the sound quality between DSP on and DSP off. The DSP definitely takes some bloat off the low end of the frequency response...

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post #210 of 340 Old 06-22-2009, 06:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Does anyone know if the Denon 4010UDP will have the same level of video and video processing technology as the DVD-A1? Also, how does the video technology in the DVD-A1 compare to the Oppo BDP-83?

Will the 4010 have DL3? ~$2k is still a heck of a lot to pay when the Oppo is ~$500 if you can't hear the difference, but I am tempted since I have the money laying around after selling my old motorcycle.

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