Oppo BDP-83 Vs. Denon DVD-A1UDCI - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 340 Old 06-08-2009, 04:41 PM - Thread Starter
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I received my Oppo BDP-83 a few days ago, and I'm wondering if people think the DVD-A1UDCI is a worthwhile purchase to match with my Denon AVP-A1HDCI.

What I would gain from the Denon is a shared clock mode for BD audio and the ability to turn off the video portion of the unit (Pure Direct Mode) when I stream DSD, PCM or HD Audio.

I have a lot of concerts on BD; so the next question is important to me. Have any objective tests been done to prove that the level of jitter that is created by combining the video and audio streams on BD is audible, or is not audible, under excellent room conditions?

Also, is there any objective proof that turning off the video section when playing audio (from video discs as well as just audio discs - so I am asking two questions really) can have an audible impact, or not have an audible impact, under excellent room conditions?

Thanks.

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post #2 of 340 Old 06-08-2009, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
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I ask those questions because, the Denon Link 4 all but eliminates BD jitter, and the Pure Direct Mode turns off the video when you are just listening to audio only.

IME, I haven't heard a difference with Pure Direct Mode on or off, but I have never done any extensive or objective tests to legitimately prove it. I don't really know about the BD Jitter and I have never had a way to test if I find it audible (unless I buy the new Denon unit I mentioned...).

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post #3 of 340 Old 06-08-2009, 04:57 PM
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I think in today's world, it is hard to justify any Blu Ray player if 1080P24 and lossless audio is your game.... especially at $4500 compared to the very competent OPPO at $500. I have the $2K Denon 3800 and the OPPO.. they perform identically, except I paid $1500 less for the OPPO. They're all the same and if you are bitstreaming, there is no jitter. Now if you're using analog for audio, I'd stay away from a Blu Ray player altogether as there are far better dedicated CD players.

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post #4 of 340 Old 06-08-2009, 05:01 PM - Thread Starter
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I definitely would be bitstreaming.

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post #5 of 340 Old 06-08-2009, 05:15 PM
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Save your money.

Denon is slow with firmware updates. OPPO has a new one very week or two.

To me, it is a no brainer.

But that said, I am in the camp that believes you have to have a back-up player in case a disc doesn't load. This is why I have 2 players in my rack. I just had a disc that did not load in the Denon, so instead of fretting, I popped it into my OPPO and didn't miss a beat. Blu Ray is just too finnicky.

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post #6 of 340 Old 06-08-2009, 05:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I think in today's world, it is hard to justify any Blu Ray player if 1080P24 and lossless audio is your game.... especially at $4500 compared to the very competent OPPO at $500. I have the $2K Denon 3800 and the OPPO.. they perform identically, except I paid $1500 less for the OPPO. They're all the same and if you are bitstreaming, there is no jitter. Now if you're using analog for audio, I'd stay away from a Blu Ray player altogether as there are far better dedicated CD players.

Nice and refreshing to hear from someone who does not feel the need to justify the fact that that there $2000 player is no better than the oppo. Most people would have to find a way to prove to the world that their $2000 denon outperforms it in some way, shape or form. I like to try a lot of equipment but blu-ray is pretty boring from a technical stand point if you are doing 1080p and bitstreaming. I love the way the Denon 2500 looks, and it is built like a tank, but can I tell a difference between it and the Oppo? Nope!
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post #7 of 340 Old 06-08-2009, 05:27 PM
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I am close to ordering the DVD- A1 to go with the Denon AVP-A1
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post #8 of 340 Old 06-08-2009, 05:29 PM
 
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Oh, and I totally agree about a back up player......in my case my back up is my original ps3. Have not had disc it would not play
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post #9 of 340 Old 06-08-2009, 05:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

I am close to ordering the DVD- A1 to go with the Denon AVP-A1

I would love to hear what features you find to be indispensable on it once you get it.

One of the things that I don't see on the new Oppo, which I loved on my DVD-5910 (and which the new Denon DVD-A1 has) is the ability to switch from surround to stereo modes on DVD-A and SACD with a single remote button. It doesn't look like the Oppo can do that, and the Oppo doesn't do that on my DV-980H either. It doesn't justify the price difference, but it is a real pain in the butt to have to get up and look on my monitor in the equipment closet, or to bring down the screen and turn on the projector, just to switch from surround to stereo or vice versa.

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post #10 of 340 Old 06-08-2009, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by CCONKLIN1 View Post

Oh, and I totally agree about a back up player......in my case my back up is my original ps3. Have not had disc it would not play

Yep, I will continue to use my PS3 in my setup as well. So I'm covered as far as a backup is concerned...

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post #11 of 340 Old 06-08-2009, 05:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Pure Direct isn't an issue any longer. The Oppo has that as well...

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post #12 of 340 Old 06-08-2009, 05:47 PM - Thread Starter
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The Audio button may change the channel output. I'll have to hook it up and check. If so that would take care of that annoying issue from the 980H.

So the only issue left would be whether I would gain any audible improvement from the synched clocks using both Denons with the units passing Bitstream to each other, vs. no synched clocks with the Oppo Bitstream being passed...

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post #13 of 340 Old 06-08-2009, 05:49 PM
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For someone planning the d-box the Denon is the way to go. Also with an amx/crestron system you can poll the denon and get tons of feedback ( i do not know with the oppo).

The a1 has custom machined tray and clamping mechanism with better vibration absorption. This is the first BD audiophile BD player built from the ground up. These types of features make a huge difference in the Esoteric SACD players. I believe that they could make a difference too in the Denon.
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post #14 of 340 Old 06-08-2009, 05:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

The Audio button may change the channel output. I'll have to hook it up and check. If so that would take care of that annoying issue from the 980H.

So the only issue left would be whether I would gain any audible improvement from the synched clocks using both Denons with the units passing Bitstream to each other, vs. no synched clocks with the Oppo Bitstream being passed...

I think the clock issue is irrelevant if you're bitstreaming out, because it all gets decompressed anyway, so there really isn't, in my understanding, a clock issue involved with that at all. If you were decoding in the player then outputting PCM, then jitter might be a concern, if one were concerned about jitter issues.
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post #15 of 340 Old 06-08-2009, 06:35 PM
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Hello,
This is a very interesting debate. There is something to be said for stellar build quality. Even the experience of loading a disc is certainly different with a reference quality player. Obviously, only the end user can decide if the increased price of admission is ultimately worth it. I just hope the load times of the DVD-A1UDCI are at least close to the OPPO. If not, I am afraid of the reactions by many to this battleship of a player. Excellent point about the D-Box. Most who have systems with this level of integration will probably not mind the cost difference.
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post #16 of 340 Old 06-08-2009, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

I received my Oppo BDP-83 a few days ago, and I'm wondering if people think the DVD-A1UDCI is a worthwhile purchase to match with my Denon AVP-A1HDCI.

What I would gain from the Denon is a shared clock mode for BD audio and the ability to turn off the video portion of the unit (Pure Direct Mode) when I stream DSD, PCM or HD Audio.

I have a lot of concerts on BD; so the next question is important to me. Have any objective tests been done to prove that the level of jitter that is created by combining the video and audio streams on BD is audible, or is not audible, under excellent room conditions?

Also, is there any objective proof that turning off the video section when playing audio (from video discs as well as just audio discs - so I am asking two questions really) can have an audible impact, or not have an audible impact, under excellent room conditions?

Thanks.

QC, I'll throw in my $.02 since we just finished an evaluation with my Elite 09FD and my Oppo. First the Oppo is blazing fast, faster than anything we've seen including the PS3.
We are now using the players analogue out straight into the Six Shooter since the Elite in analogue trounced the Elite out HDMI into the Integra DTC-9.8. There was no comparison as I reported earlier. Here's what we saw and heard with three of us in attendance for the test, myself, the owner of Musical Fidelity here in So Cal (Top rated high end audio repair in LA) who also used to be in video production, and a fellow Audiophile who was interested in purchasing an Oppo.
First on BD Video at 1080p/24 the pictures were very close. The Elite may have been slightly more refined with a slightly better black level, but again very close. There was nothing here to justify the price difference. On SD DVD the difference was more pronounced. The Oppo had more noise, some edge enhancement and not quite as accurate colors. We all noticed these differences, but it bothered my friend with a history of video production the most.
As for analogue Audio the Elite clearly bested the Oppo in every parameter. It had more air, depth of image, better tonal and tighter bass, and a much sweeter mid-range and top end. Here is where the price of admission showed the most, it was not subtle.
Finally, because I was encouraging my audiophile friend to go BD and I think the Oppo is unchallenged in its price range we took it over to his house to see how it faired as a CD transport. We compared it to his Theta Carmen over SP/DIF. Now I expected the two to be fairly close on digital audio, particularly since we were running the digital into a Theta CB III which re-clocks the signal with its "Jitter Jail." I had pretty much convinced my friend that he could go BD with the Oppo and use it as a CD transport and sell the Carmen and probably make a few bucks on the deal. This was a great concept, except the Oppo didn't hold up its end of the bargain. The Carmen was much sweeter, with way more air and dimension. My friend said he just couldn't pull the trigger given the difference. He would not live without the Carmen in this comparison, and I had to agree. So much for Bits is Bits. The difference as digital music transports was easy for all to hear.
This brings me to an observation I've been getting more comfortable with, and that is a top BD player with great analogue outs may just best an HDMI audio out to a processor. In my experience none of the HDMI processors I've heard has been able to best the Elite with its analogue outs in SQ. I'm not sure if we just need better HDMI pre/pros or if HDMI is an inherently inferior audio transfer protocol. I'm beginning to lean toward the latter. Some of the new HDMI pre/pros may help settle this question. However, a close friend was discussing this with the former owner and head designer of Kinergitics and Chiro, and he said the jitter on HDMI is so bad that it will not under its current incarnation do a decent job of transferring audio data.
Hopefully this helps in your quest for a BD player. Assuming the Denon is as good as the Elite for Audio and you can use it for DSD & DVD-A I would say go for it, especially since it is copacetic with your other Denon gear. Good decision making. Regards, Norm
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post #17 of 340 Old 06-08-2009, 10:49 PM
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The BD-83 has an "Audio Only" button on the remote that turns off video output.
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post #18 of 340 Old 06-08-2009, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post

QC, I'll throw in my $.02 since we just finished an evaluation with my Elite 09FD and my Oppo. First the Oppo is blazing fast, faster than anything we've seen including the PS3.
We are now using the players analogue out straight into the Six Shooter since the Elite in analogue trounced the Elite out HDMI into the Integra DTC-9.8. There was no comparison as I reported earlier. Here's what we saw and heard with three of us in attendance for the test, myself, the owner of Musical Fidelity here in So Cal (Top rated high end audio repair in LA) who also used to be in video production, and a fellow Audiophile who was interested in purchasing an Oppo.
First on BD Video at 1080p/24 the pictures were very close. The Elite may have been slightly more refined with a slightly better black level, but again very close. There was nothing here to justify the price difference. On SD DVD the difference was more pronounced. The Oppo had more noise, some edge enhancement and not quite as accurate colors. We all noticed these differences, but it bothered my friend with a history of video production the most.
As for analogue Audio the Elite clearly bested the Oppo in every parameter. It had more air, depth of image, better tonal and tighter bass, and a much sweeter mid-range and top end. Here is where the price of admission showed the most, it was not subtle.
Finally, because I was encouraging my audiophile friend to go BD and I think the Oppo is unchallenged in its price range we took it over to his house to see how it faired as a CD transport. We compared it to his Theta Carmen over SP/DIF. Now I expected the two to be fairly close on digital audio, particularly since we were running the digital into a Theta CB III which re-clocks the signal with its "Jitter Jail." I had pretty much convinced my friend that he could go BD with the Oppo and use it as a CD transport and sell the Carmen and probably make a few bucks on the deal. This was a great concept, except the Oppo didn't hold up its end of the bargain. The Carmen was much sweeter, with way more air and dimension. My friend said he just couldn't pull the trigger given the difference. He would not live without the Carmen in this comparison, and I had to agree. So much for Bits is Bits. The difference as digital music transports was easy for all to hear.
This brings me to an observation I've been getting more comfortable with, and that is a top BD player with great analogue outs may just best an HDMI audio out to a processor. In my experience none of the HDMI processors I've heard has been able to best the Elite with its analogue outs in SQ. I'm not sure if we just need better HDMI pre/pros or if HDMI is an inherently inferior audio transfer protocol. I'm beginning to lean toward the latter. Some of the new HDMI pre/pros may help settle this question. However, a close friend was discussing this with the former owner and head designer of Kinergitics and Chiro, and he said the jitter on HDMI is so bad that it will not under its current incarnation do a decent job of transferring audio data.
Hopefully this helps in your quest for a BD player. Assuming the Denon is as good as the Elite for Audio and you can use it for DSD & DVD-A I would say go for it, especially since it is copacetic with your other Denon gear. Good decision making. Regards, Norm


Interesting read. No surprise the 09 did well with its audio stage and I would suspect the Denon will be stellar in that regard to.

Im curious to understand more clearly how/why the Oppo was not as good as the Carmen when used as a digital transport.

In regards to info on jitter with HDMI here is an interesting post made over at the Classe Forum. I am actually surprised Classe rarely gets talked about on AVS.

Not to throw the thread off to much, but I believe when looking at a source player which is 4k+ its worth reevaluating the processor i.e. it may be time to upgrade to a new one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AV-OCD View Post

Usually, good jitter performance is considered anything below 300 psecs. And below 150 psecs is considered world class. I had to re-read the 10 psec jitter performance of the SSP-800 in the HFN review several times just to make sure that it wasn't a typo. 10 psecs?! That is simply ground breaking. It's the first time I've ever seen a result that low.

There's a good deal of debate as to whether jitter has much of an audible effect on sound, I've been paying a lot of attention to jitter since moving from the CDP-300 to a Mac Mini. When it comes to transports, there are really only two things to worry about. Whether or not the output is "bit-perfect" and the jitter levels. It's not too difficult it seems to achieve bit-perfect output from a PC, but jitter levels can be rather high so you need a DAC that is good at rejecting it--like the SSP-800. Based on the test results on HFN, it's no wonder I heard no difference between the CDP-300 and the Mac Mini.

A quick comparison:

The jitter spectrum of the SSP-800 from HFN:


And now the CDP-202 from Stereophile:


An ideal graph would be a single spike at the test frequency in the center, with no spikes to the left or right. It is plain to see how much cleaner the SSP-800 jitter graph is than the CDP-202. The comparison is not completely apples to apples because I believe the HFN and Stereophile tests are slightly different, but they should be close enough.

I'd like to mention one more tidbit from the HFN review that pretty much sums up my experience with it.

"incredibly refined, yet at the same time revealing..."

I just have to say again that until I heard the SSP-800, I thought that most prepros sounded more or less the same, and there was a small part of me that thought I might have been hearing what I want to hear, but after seeing that the comments in HFN line up almost perfectly with my impressions, I'm confident now that the SSP-800 is a clear step-up in sound quality from the Lexicon MC12HD that I owned prior to it. The Lex had a grain and etch to the top end that is completely absent in the 800. The grain and etch can give the false impression of detail (like edge enhancement on TV), but the 800 has more real resolution and a much more natural sound.

Bravo Classe!

Cheers,

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post #19 of 340 Old 06-08-2009, 11:38 PM
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I own the Denon AVP and just picked up an Oppo 83 too. I'm using it strictly for bitstreaming into my AVP. I have a separate SACD player. I'm pretty impressed with the Oppo. And it's $1700 cheaper than my Pioneer Elite 09. With all that said, the new DVD-A1 looks to be one bad-ass player. But for $4500 it's really hard to justify, especially if you're only gonna be bitstreaming. Now the DVD-A1 has new 32 bit DACs, I'm quite anxious to see/hear how these perform. C'mon Mark, hurry up and get one.

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post #20 of 340 Old 06-11-2009, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post

This was a great concept, except the Oppo didn't hold up its end of the bargain. The Carmen was much sweeter, with way more air and dimension. My friend said he just couldn't pull the trigger given the difference. He would not live without the Carmen in this comparison, and I had to agree. So much for Bits is Bits. The difference as digital music transports was easy for all to hear.
This brings me to an observation I've been getting more comfortable with, and that is a top BD player with great analogue outs may just best an HDMI audio out to a processor. In my experience none of the HDMI processors I've heard has been able to best the Elite with its analogue outs in SQ. I'm not sure if we just need better HDMI pre/pros or if HDMI is an inherently inferior audio transfer protocol. I'm beginning to lean toward the latter.

Or, could it be, that you are preferring a less accurate, but perhaps 'sweeter sounding' rendition? How can you be certain which is more accurate?

Just as with speakers, some prefer a less accurate but to them, more pleasing sound.

As for picture quality, I'd be willing to bet that in a double blind HDMI out, 1080p24 playback comparison, nobody would do better than 50-50 in picking the most expensive player on the market vs. the Oppo...or the Panny...or 'fill in the blank' cheapo BD player.

For me using HDMI output and bitstreaming, it's all about performance (speed etc.). I've seen nothing faster than the Oppo...not even my PS3.
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post #21 of 340 Old 06-11-2009, 06:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Or, could it be, that you are preferring a less accurate, but perhaps 'sweeter sounding' rendition? How can you be certain which is more accurate?

Just as with speakers, some prefer a less accurate but to them, more pleasing sound.

As for picture quality, I'd be willing to bet that in a double blind HDMI out, 1080p24 playback comparison, nobody would do better than 50-50 in picking the most expensive player on the market vs. the Oppo...or the Panny...or 'fill in the blank' cheapo BD player.

For me using HDMI output and bitstreaming, it's all about performance (speed etc.). I've seen nothing anything better than the Oppo...even my PS3.

That is a bet you will most likely lose. The test is extremely likely to show no significant audible difference, but it won't be 50/50 exactly; perhaps close to it, but not exactly 50/50. It would be more correct to say that an appropriately objective comparison would show no significant difference between the two players, or, as you perform greater number of tests the results tend to approach 50/50.

In any case, I'm curious if there is any proof that the jitter levels in Blu-Ray are audible compared to the same material with significantly less jitter.

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post #22 of 340 Old 06-11-2009, 06:30 AM - Thread Starter
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So far no one has posted any objective data showing that the jitter levels in a normal HDMI player like the Oppo is inaudible compared to one with significantly less jitter. Does anyone know what amount of jitter a player like the Oppo introduces as well as what the proven threshold for audible jitter is?

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post #23 of 340 Old 06-11-2009, 06:58 AM
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Quick question on the comparison with the Oppo and the Pioneer. When outputting HDMI what was the format? Were you outputting and having the audio decompressed downstream?

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post #24 of 340 Old 06-11-2009, 07:07 AM - Thread Starter
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No offense, but I did ask for objective/scientific proof, so I would appreciate it if you would take these subjective comparisons to another thread...

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post #25 of 340 Old 06-11-2009, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

So far no one has posted any objective data showing that the jitter levels in a normal HDMI player like the Oppo is inaudible compared to one with significantly less jitter. Does anyone know what amount of jitter a player like the Oppo introduces as well as what the proven threshold for audible jitter is?

Has anyone shown that it is audible ?

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post #26 of 340 Old 06-11-2009, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Has anyone shown that it is audible ?

Art

For a multitrack movie mix, I cannot imagine any significant difference. The sounds in a movie soundtrack are artificial and mixed down to blend in and not overpower dialog. Jitter is a non-issue. I have read quite a bit on it (20 year subscriber to Stereophile) and see nothing in terms of an impact on a soundtrack like Transformers, Gran Torino, Bug's Life etc..

Now an audiophile, single track Sheffield, Delos, Telarc, recording, etc played on an audiophile grade system... then, likely..

For me, my room is 100% HT. Jitter is about 100 on my list of 100 things I'd like to improve in my system.

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There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #27 of 340 Old 06-11-2009, 09:42 AM
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Got it ,thanks !

Who here has the 83 ?

art

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post #28 of 340 Old 06-11-2009, 11:07 AM
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Me!

Love it. Equal to my Denon in aq/pq but 5X faster. Highly recommended. Great, fast OPPO support.

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #29 of 340 Old 06-11-2009, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post


Who here has the 83 ?

art

My 83 does everything I need, and does it so well my Pioneer Elite 09 is now up for sale.

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post #30 of 340 Old 06-11-2009, 11:27 AM
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I have two OPPO 83's and a Denon DVD-A1 on order:

the A1 will be connected to the Denon AVP-A1 with DL4 should we ever get the firmware upgrade
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