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post #361 of 401 Old 11-20-2010, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

That's remarkable. I had no idea you could play a CD with a cartridge. I can easily see the photons of light getting the way of the cartridge needle reading 100 nanometer pits of compact disc .



Of course, an LP stylus can recover signals smaller than the wavelength of light, so maybe it can read CDs better than a laser?
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I cater to a balanced view that we don't know why we hear everything. But that science and engineering answer many questions.

Hear hear. This is why I'm on this thread. And while I'm swiimming in endorphins, here are the other three threads on AVS that I've really enjoyed:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=958570

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...advanced+audio

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...highlight=ayre

Pure indulgence; all-too-rare goldmines of informed opinion; and compulsory reading for any real audio- and videophile. But lo and behold, what should I see in the first of them?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post12570667
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Note that if you want to be a purist, all of the lossless compressors outperform LPCM since they reduce jitter induced through transmission from source to AVR.

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post #362 of 401 Old 11-20-2010, 09:37 AM
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Amirm. I am somewhat surprised at the insult you posted about where one sets the bar and this being based on their profession.

In case you didn`t know I have a degree in Engineering from oe of the better engineering and science schools in the country. Despite the considerable time I had to spend away from my studies being on the one din 1A team we had, hockey, I managed through a lot of summer work to graduate at the top of my Department. Of course this was manymany years ago and I am not very digital savy. We all have cetain areas of expertise and we all have different egrees of intelligence.

I have conducted many many ABs from being in the high end AV business for some 27 years now. Many tests have been double blind. Somethings that I can discern 9 times out of ten (why not perfection? I get tired) I can not explain. Why shining a light on a cartridge makes the sound worse, why little jars of pepples in the back room corners improves the bass performance, why bowls of water, with and without ice) in front of the speakers improves the sound stasge for lack of a better word, stuff that some would consider stupid. It can`t be. But my observations are repeatable and are not financially driven even though I am in the business.


I would suggest not to let you go scott free for your insult, that perhaps your audio acuity might be a lot lower than ideally it should be amd far below mine in areas where it counts.

I hope this doesm`t not affect your willingness to be my best friend in certain areas. I do have a tremendous respect of you despite your misguided superiority complex.

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post #363 of 401 Old 11-20-2010, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Amirm. I am somewhat surprised at the insult you posted about where one sets the bar and this being based on their profession.

I made no insult but made an observation that your bar is much lower than mine in what observations you accept. If that is not factual, let me know. That is how it seemed from your posts. I am friends with many people who take your position and I don't consider any of them any less smart than me. Audiophiles differ on these things drastically and that difference is what makes us want to come here and have these conversations. IMHO if we want to take them as insults, then we shouldn't bother being here.

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In case you didn`t know I have a degree in Engineering from oe of the better engineering and science schools in the country. Despite the considerable time I had to spend away from my studies being on the one din 1A team we had, hockey, I managed through a lot of summer work to graduate at the top of my Department. Of course this was manymany years ago and I am not very digital savy. We all have cetain areas of expertise and we all have different egrees of intelligence.

No, I didn't know you had an engineering degree. That said, having gone through the same education, I don't recall anyone teaching you how an AVR works. How HDMI works. How compressed audio is mux'ed on a Blu-ray disc. What the audibility results of jitter are. What is room correction. Or frankly 99% of the stuff we talk about.

If your school taught you all of this, kudos to whoever put together that program and I look forward in the future to hearing engineering explanations of what we are talking about from your end.

That said, as males, we are always guilty of trying to make ourselves the "alpha wolf" and you and I are no different. To wit, much of what I know per above, did not come from going to school but rather, in building Audio/Video/computer products for companies and personal experience (electronics was my hobby since I was little). As I learned more, I also changed my views on many things. Without the incredible amount of resources I had at my disposal, I am sure I would not know what I know now. An EE degree gave the fundamentals to learn these things but that was it.
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I have conducted many many ABs from being in the high end AV business for some 27 years now. Many tests have been double blind. Somethings that I can discern 9 times out of ten (why not perfection? I get tired) I can not explain. Why shining a light on a cartridge makes the sound worse

What was the nature of your double-blind testing for that?

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, why little jars of pepples in the back room corners improves the bass performance

You have a double blind test that shows that too?

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, why bowls of water, with and without ice) in front of the speakers improves the sound stasge for lack of a better word, stuff that some would consider stupid. It can`t be. But my observations are repeatable and are not financially driven even though I am in the business.

Again, I would love to know the nature of your testing for all of these.

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I would suggest not to let you go scott free for your insult, that perhaps your audio acuity might be a lot lower than ideally it should be amd far below mine in areas where it counts.

What did I say about the alpha wolf syndrome?

There is nothing in this thread about what I hear or don't hear. In my day, I was a trained listener and that training came out of thousands of hours of specialized listening tests and access to technology to get me there. I got pretty good at it, able to hear artifacts few people could. But this is years later and this aging ear probably is not anywhere close to what it used to be. For sure, if I put ice in my glass of water, I can't hear its effect anywhere but on my tongue . So if that makes me deaf relative to you, I happily grant you that advantage.

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I hope this doesm`t not affect your willingness to be my best friend in certain areas. I do have a tremendous respect of you despite your misguided superiority complex.

Likewise other than the misguided part . I don't think you are misguided at all. But simply different than me in your conclusions.

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post #364 of 401 Old 11-20-2010, 10:49 AM
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The testing re the pebbles was conducted with a methodogy you may find fault with but I would nd not find fault with it. An object was filled with jars or not jars straws or the such. A person in a private rom drew the straws and listed them as randomly drawn from 1 to 20. 40 straws were in the draw container. The audio equipment was set up. And the same track was played for each test. Nothing was touches except for restting the CD player to the track and pressing play. I closed my eyes and the person entered the room, and went to each corner bending down and placing,jars removing jars, or doing neither for each test. The jars were in the corners behind me and I did not turn around to view the rear corners.The person started the track and left the room. I did not see the person and he did not speak. I had a pad, numbered one to 20. I kept track better or worse. The first couple may of had to be changed once I heard to me a better or worse. At the end I compared my observations to the test sequence employed. I am sure you could find some fault with the methodology but it was good enough for me.

And no I was not taught the stuff you listed. I graduated in 1967. I taught engineering until mid 1971.And I am not a dog. Alpha or otherwise. I am more like a pussy cat. I do like dogs, have one myself, but I love *******.

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post #365 of 401 Old 11-20-2010, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Amirm. I am somewhat surprised at the insult you posted about where one sets the bar and this being based on their profession.

I was just beginning to wonder how long we could keep a discussion going on a substantitive issue without someone's feelings getting hurt. It was a pretty good streak while it lasted......
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post #366 of 401 Old 11-20-2010, 02:00 PM
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My feelings aren`t hurt. Just my rear end. I am a big boy and respect Amirm a lot. But I will bust his chops if necessary. Sort of a behave yourself Junior.

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post #367 of 401 Old 11-20-2010, 04:28 PM
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these guys are pretty fart smellers... I mean pretty smart fellars.

They can type fast too!

Mike Miles

ICR [ Sales Consulting and Small Part-Time AV shop, very small...  ]

Process Integration, Inc. [ contract sales consultant ]

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post #368 of 401 Old 11-21-2010, 09:45 AM
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I was just beginning to wonder how long we could keep a discussion going on a substantitive issue without someone's feelings getting hurt. It was a pretty good streak while it lasted......

Aaaah - but they pretty much brought it back to some civility on their own. Well done gentlemen.

Back to Theta for a moment - The other night I did some more listening and although I am preferring the Theta over the NuForce, I cannot figure out why exactly.

My blind test went as follows:

I connected two sets of identical ICs to my pre/pro at the bottom of my gear rack and ran them up to the players which were on two different shelves, one right over the other. At the players, I could only see left and right labels and didn't know which input they went to because I couldn't see down to the pre/pro, but I did keep the pairs semi together so I wouldn't be mixing one left with the other's right.

Then I switched back and forth between the two analog inputs on my remote while playing two identical CDs. It worked pretty easy since both use the same remote commands, they would both start/stop/skip and so forth together. Also, I cannot see my gear from my seat because it's all in a closet behind my front wall. I use an RF remote with an IR repeating system.

Anyway - at first listen, I consistently chose input #2 over my other input #7. I couldn't put my finger on exactly why, but very subjectively it just seemed a little more of an open stage and more organic/real sounding, but slightly. I also noticed a slight shift in the soundstage. The #2 input seemed to have more separation between some instruments in some tracks. This was track dependent though. In other words, this separation wasn't there for every track I played, only a few. Not sure I can explain that one, but there's a lot a cannot explain.

OK - now the self critical observation. Once I decided on a preference of inputs I went to check to see which player was which. That's when I learned #2 was the Theta...kind to my surprise due to the different analog sections of these two players, and that was all I was comparing at this time.

However - when I went back to repeat my experiment, I could not tell the difference between the two anymore even though previously I could pick the Theta (#2) pretty much every time. The difference was that now I knew which input was which player.

In trying to explain what I heard I'd say the Theta seemed maybe bit more extended in the top end, but I know my hearing isn't very good at higher frequencies so I hesitate to mention this, and not sure why I would even notice something like this. Both players had very good bottom end extension, something that is easily distinguished in my system, and is the first thing that has distinguished players for me in past comparisons. The Theta's bottom end might be a bit cleaner though. It seemed to have less "rumbling" associated with the bass if that makes any sense.

Anyway - these are very subjective observations. I am pleased with both players, and will keep both players for two different systems in my home. I will also add that my pre/pro is not nearly as good on 2-ch as my preamp, but for reasons I'd rather not get into I couldn't effectively do the same comparison through my preamp. Both players via the preamp sound worlds better IMO.

As much as I know I might like 3D video in the future, I want to enjoy my A/V now. I am willing to accept this will cost me more money, but it's not huge money, and life can be surprising short...or long... especially if you always delay doing something today because there will be something better tomorrow, which in A/V will always be the case.

Dave
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post #369 of 401 Old 11-21-2010, 11:03 AM
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Great effort Dave in quantifying the audible difference. One thing I do other than what you did is that I randomly switch the cables and then re-run the experiment. If I arrive at the same conclusion as the first time, I feel better about the results. So if you have time and can repeat the "blind" aspect of this, it would be great.

Until then, you are using the right words to explain what differences might be. It is the last few bits of audio resolution which gives us a sense of space and separation between instruments. And indeed such differences would not be heard all the time (or even most of the time).

It is also very natural for such small differences to vanish, or even change sides when testing conditions are changes such as knowing which source is which. So the fact that your observations changed once you knew the sources is also quite normal.

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post #370 of 401 Old 11-21-2010, 10:40 PM
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Amirm. Any comments on my pebbles in the jar test methodology? Asked of course constructively. Thanks in advance.

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post #371 of 401 Old 11-22-2010, 12:00 AM
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Sure. A few thoughts:

1. You were not specific as to the size of the container and location of the pebbles. At some level, you could be impacting the acoustics of the room. If this were a tiny jar with small items, then I don't have an explanation of why it would be an audible change.

2. You said you marked whether the sound got worse or better. It would have been best if you had a box that said "no change." With good or bad, you had 50% chance of being right. And the test further assumes that it is not possible for the change to not be audible. Since "no change" would the most common and predictable choice, its absence stands out.

3. Would have been nice to have a control. That would have been a person walking in, doing nothing as far as pebbles and seeing how you vote. Alternatively, they could have covered one speaker with cloth instead of messing with the pebbles to see if you could tell that (i.e. gross changes that anyone should hear). We usually have such controls as ways to dismiss poor testers although admittedly, in my own tests, I won't subject myself to such things either .

4. You never said how you did! How often were you right? Was there a rhyme or reason to when you were right or wrong?

5. mmiles said something about people farting and such. If they did, that surely would have invalidated the blind aspects of your tests .

6. I always admire people who do any type of test to discover things on their own. So despite my comments above, I think it is great that you subjected yourself to this test. Even if we don't learn much about what you did, I am sure you did.

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post #372 of 401 Old 11-22-2010, 08:55 AM
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I scored 19 out of 20 correct. I simply went better same worse once I reached the first change point. So I started same and then when it went worse or better I remarked the start up to the change point. They were small jars maybe that would hold. 6 ozs of fluid I don`t remember exactly except they were filled with pebbles of varying sizes and colors.

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post #373 of 401 Old 11-22-2010, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I scored 19 out of 20 correct.

That's impressive results Mark. Congratulations.

If I may ask a few more questions so that I understand the full test, that would be great:

You said earlier:
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The testing re the pebbles was conducted with a methodogy you may find fault with but I would nd not find fault with it. An object was filled with jars or not jars straws or the such.

What "object" was filled with jars? You mean the room was populated with jars, some of which were empty and some of which had straws? If so, where does the pebble enter the equation?

What size were the jars and the straws? Are the latter drinking straws or are we talking about decorate grass type straws?

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A person in a private rom drew the straws and listed them as randomly drawn from 1 to 20.

What do you mean by listing straws?

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40 straws were in the draw container.

What container? Is this a container outside from which straws are taken? if so, what is the significance of having 40 straws in them?

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The audio equipment was set up.

How was the equipment room set up? Two speakers in the front and said jars/bowls in the back corners? Where there room treatment otherwise? How empty was the room? How larger was the room?

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I closed my eyes and the person entered the room, and went to each corner bending down and placing,jars removing jars, or doing neither for each test.

Oh, so they are not changing the number of pebbles in the jars but adding or removing jars from the room?

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I had a pad, numbered one to 20. I kept track better or worse. The first couple may of had to be changed once I heard to me a better or worse.

You mean you went back and changed your first few votes? And when you voted "better or worse" what did that mean? That the bass was reduced or increased?

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At the end I compared my observations to the test sequence employed.

What do you mean by test sequence. What did the observers record for each step?

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I am sure you could find some fault with the methodology but it was good enough for me.

Well, I suspect you are discussing it here because you want more people than yourself to believe in the results .

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post #374 of 401 Old 11-22-2010, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

The testing re the pebbles was conducted with a methodogy you may find fault with but I would nd not find fault with it. An object was filled with jars or not jars straws or the such. A person in a private rom drew the straws and listed them as randomly drawn from 1 to 20. 40 straws were in the draw container. The audio equipment was set up. And the same track was played for each test. Nothing was touches except for restting the CD player to the track and pressing play. I closed my eyes and the person entered the room, and went to each corner bending down and placing,jars removing jars, or doing neither for each test. The jars were in the corners behind me and I did not turn around to view the rear corners.The person started the track and left the room. I did not see the person and he did not speak. I had a pad, numbered one to 20. I kept track better or worse. The first couple may of had to be changed once I heard to me a better or worse. At the end I compared my observations to the test sequence employed. I am sure you could find some fault with the methodology but it was good enough for me.

And no I was not taught the stuff you listed. I graduated in 1967. I taught engineering until mid 1971.And I am not a dog. Alpha or otherwise. I am more like a pussy cat. I do like dogs, have one myself, but I love *******.

Sounds like a shamanistic ritual..... If peyote was involved in the expiriment that would explain the results.
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post #375 of 401 Old 11-22-2010, 06:49 PM
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We had to establish a random test sampling. So we filled an object, I don`t remember what, with 20 slips of paper (I called them straws), ten marked jars, the other ten marked no jars. The test conductor with out our seeing, drew 20 times, writing the result of the draw, he replaced the straw each time so the number of tests were not balanced 10 to 10 but something close 12 to 8 or 11 to 9.

I didn`t know the start condition, jars or no jars. The sound was tighter, less overhang of bass blurring the the pebbles in the jars. So until there was a change, I couldn` mark better or worse. I marked the first one unknown. The second one the same. The third one better. Then I went back amd remarked the first Worse, the second same, the third better. It was the same as marking my guess Jars or no jars but I didn`t have a correlation to start the sequence.

Really I don`t care what people think about the concept of magic rocks in small jars making the bass sound better. I know what I heard under what were blind test conditions in my book. To me, it is far more important to get one`s rock off than you guys ever concurring that something could make a difference without some genius coming up with a why it did.

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post #376 of 401 Old 11-22-2010, 07:04 PM
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Thanks Mark. Let me see if I have this right. You had a bowl that had instructions for the person coming into the room to make changes. The proctor draw 10 random instructions out which then dictated what change was about to be made to the room at each step in the test.

If this is right, then what? How was the actual test conducted? What did people bring into the room?

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post #377 of 401 Old 11-22-2010, 07:42 PM
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"I know what I heard under what were blind test conditions in my book. "

Single blind though... right?

Shawn
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post #378 of 401 Old 11-22-2010, 09:54 PM
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Sounds like the Synergistic Mystic Bowls test. All I know is I've heard it in 3 different rooms on 3 different systems, and it makes profound improvements every time. No scientific reason, of course. Norm
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post #379 of 401 Old 11-22-2010, 10:46 PM
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The water in bowls and with ice were another test.


Amimr. The test were to have a person bring two jars or pebbles into the room, place them in the corners, and hit the replay button on the CD player. A series of 20 random jars in the rear corners jars not in the rear corners were pre drawn by the person bringing the jars in and out of the room. The person did not speak and I shut my eyes after each track and did not observe the person or his actions. He did not speak. I did not establish the 20 in or out sequence. Just for each replay kept track, better or worse. Then I compared my observations to the test sequence. Better coincided with jars in gthe corners. I got it right 19 out of 20.

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post #380 of 401 Old 11-23-2010, 02:59 PM
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Really I don`t care what people think about the concept of magic rocks in small jars making the bass sound better.

I didn't care either until you asked me to comment .

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post #381 of 401 Old 11-23-2010, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

To me, it is far more important to get one`s rock off than you guys ever concurring that something could make a difference without some genius coming up with a why it did.

Concurr.

I don't think we have to have an explanation for an empirical result for us to be able to accept the result.

I sure want to be able to understand it though. Its all good science.

Congrats on the new role by the way.

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post #382 of 401 Old 11-23-2010, 09:17 PM
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Amirm. My question went to the methodology of establishing my conclusion to the what I was concluding, that is jars, bowling, pins, balloons or whatever. I am not trying to argue the tweak just the validity of my test methodology.

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post #383 of 401 Old 11-23-2010, 09:53 PM
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Mark, I can't comment on the methodology if I can't figure out what were doing . And I honestly know very little despite the past few tests. I tried to ask clarifying questions but that didn't work either.

Just to give you an example of when I had to explain a test I had done, see here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1136745

Read my description of my test and compare it to yours here and then tell me what you think .

Amir
Founder, Madrona Digital
"Insist on Quality Engineering"

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post #384 of 401 Old 02-13-2011, 12:53 PM
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Does anyone know how the Theta does with scratched and dirty blu-rays. The Oppo, upon which it's based, is supposed to do very well in this regard. I get discs from Netflix and their quality control is often not the best. I had a David and I remember that it was pretty fussy about what it could and couldn't play, but it was based on a Pioneer player. Incidentally, I am using a Pioneer 95 for now and it gets through an entire Netflix movie without any issues only about 2/3 of the time.
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post #385 of 401 Old 02-13-2011, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mccaff View Post

Does anyone know how the Theta does with scratched and dirty blu-rays. The Oppo, upon which it's based, is supposed to do very well in this regard. I get discs from Netflix and their quality control is often not the best. I had a David and I remember that it was pretty fussy about what it could and couldn't play, but it was based on a Pioneer player. Incidentally, I am using a Pioneer 95 for now and it gets through an entire Netflix movie without any issues only about 2/3 of the time.

Theta does not touch the transport, not anything digital, so performance in this regards should be completely identical to the Oppo 83. My Netflix no issues playback success rate on the Marantz ud9004 is about 90%. Wonder how this compares to the Oppo. Next time I have a disc with problems on the ud9004 I'll try it on my upstairs Oppo 93 and see how it does.
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post #386 of 401 Old 02-13-2011, 04:14 PM
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Although they don't touch the transport itself they do add some isolation and damping. I suppose that that could change some of the tolerance specifications of the optical reading mechanism. Of course this is pure speculation, but why else would they do anything mechanical in nature if it has no effect.
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post #387 of 401 Old 02-13-2011, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

Theta does not touch the transport, not anything digital, so performance in this regards should be completely identical to the Oppo 83. My Netflix no issues playback success rate on the Marantz ud9004 is about 90%. Wonder how this compares to the Oppo. Next time I have a disc with problems on the ud9004 I'll try it on my upstairs Oppo 93 and see how it does.

In regard to the question, I think you are correct mostly because the transport itself is relatively untouched. However, I think the drastically different power supply has a great influence on the digital performance. I have an 83SE and a Compli Blu. The Theta is surprisingly good...IMO of course.

Dave
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post #388 of 401 Old 02-16-2011, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post

For the record, I don't own a Compli Blu. We have an Elite BDP-09FD in our reference system. Norm

Norm:

Have you found any issues with 7.1 LPCM out of the BDP-09FD? I have issues with that and the new CB3HD.

Thanks
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post #389 of 401 Old 03-05-2014, 05:26 AM
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hi

anyone can confirmed me that the theta compli non 3d version can output hd audio from analog out bevause i read reviews said that dts hd was not able to pass though analog

thanks
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post #390 of 401 Old 03-05-2014, 05:51 AM
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DTS-HD can be decoded inside the Compli Blu and will be transmitted through the analog outputs.

As is the case across the entire industry, DTS-HD Master Audio will not fit down the SPDIF pipeline.

Jeff
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