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post #361 of 394 Old 10-18-2009, 11:34 AM
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"Don't you think that using the tone controls would be a lot easier and probably just as effective to help make a poor mixes more palatable?"

Easier, sure, but how could it possibly be as effective?

Noah
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post #362 of 394 Old 10-18-2009, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"Don't you think that using the tone controls would be a lot easier and probably just as effective to help make a poor mixes more palatable?"

Easier, sure, but how could it possibly be as effective?

Different curves from Audyssey are technically superior sure, but when you consider that with all the recordings we own and play, each one has their own problems, the number of custom curves that Audyssey provides may be insufficient to deal with each of these tracks. And then you may want to deviate more than 3dB.

I know a lot of people who have computer based front ends for their music simply make a bunch of different EQ presets. It's not simply 2-band tone control either...sometimes up to 15 bands.

Anyway, Audyssey is better, but sometimes for particularly hot recordings, tone controls are useful.
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post #363 of 394 Old 10-18-2009, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"Don't you think that using the tone controls would be a lot easier and probably just as effective to help make a poor mixes more palatable?"

Easier, sure, but how could it possibly be as effective?

Hi Noah,

So is your solution to construct a customer target curve for every different poorly mastered piece of content, in a futile attempt to correct it?

As I alluded to earlier, high frequency roll-offs are usually needed to comfortably make the transition from the mixing acoustic environment to the listening environment. The standard roll-offs on the canned target curves are based on an educated guess of the statistical average of the intended home environment. The ability to craft a custom roll-off can be helpful to refine that roll-off to your particular situation. It really only needs to be done only once.

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post #364 of 394 Old 10-18-2009, 01:28 PM
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"So is your solution to construct a customer target curve for every different poorly mastered piece of content, in a futile attempt to correct it?"

No.

I have quite a few CD's that have a similar overly bright bass-shy sound that was helped some w/tone controls but not enough.

Noah
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post #365 of 394 Old 10-18-2009, 01:35 PM
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Kal,

I just re-read your review of the MultEQ Pro3.0 s/w ( http://stereophile.com/musicintherou...35/index1.html for those interested) and have a question.

You say "I was able to change the curve with the most gentle rolloff (down by about 8dB at 20kHz) to a curve with a slower slope that was laser-straight o 20kHz."

How was 8 dB of boost at 20 kHz possible?

Though I just noticed that you say "straight", not "flat" - so the 3 dB limit would mean you got it to -5 dB at 20 kHz?

Noah
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post #366 of 394 Old 10-18-2009, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Kal,

I just re-read your review of the MultEQ Pro3.0 s/w ( http://stereophile.com/musicintherou...35/index1.html for those interested) and have a question.

You say "I was able to change the curve with the most gentle rolloff (down by about 8dB at 20kHz) to a curve with a slower slope that was laser-straight o 20kHz."

How was 8 dB of boost at 20 kHz possible?

Though I just noticed that you say "straight", not "flat" - so the 3 dB limit would mean you got it to -5 dB at 20 kHz?

I said straight and I meant straight and flat! Read all the posts again. The limitation is that one cannot set it beyond +/-3dB of 0dB. Thus, I was able to move the -8dB point to 0 (8dB change) but I could also, if I wanted to, to move it to +3dB (11dB change).

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post #367 of 394 Old 10-18-2009, 05:41 PM
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"The limitation is that one cannot set it beyond +/-3dB of 0dB."

Sorry to be dense, but I looked back, and it's still not clear.

Is 0 dB referenced to absolute response, or to one of the Audyssey curves?

Noah
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post #368 of 394 Old 10-18-2009, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"The limitation is that one cannot set it beyond +/-3dB of 0dB."

Sorry to be dense, but I looked back, and it's still not clear.

Is 0 dB referenced to absolute response, or to one of the Audyssey curves?

"Adjustments are restricted to the range +/-3dB from flat. "

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post #369 of 394 Old 10-18-2009, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

I said straight and I meant straight and flat! Read all the posts again. The limitation is that one cannot set it beyond +/-3dB of 0dB. Thus, I was able to move the -8dB point to 0 (8dB change) but I could also, if I wanted to, to move it to +3dB (11dB change).

So how does Audyssey keep the user from blowing a tweeter if they chose lift the HF response that much?
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post #370 of 394 Old 10-18-2009, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

So how does Audyssey keep the user from blowing a tweeter if they chose lift the HF response that much?

3dB?

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post #371 of 394 Old 10-18-2009, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

3dB?

No, 8 to 11dB as stated in the post I quoted.
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post #372 of 394 Old 10-18-2009, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

No, 8 to 11dB as stated in the post I quoted.

C'mon. If the original target is down 8dB, that is an attenuation 8dB. So raising the target curve to 0, a change of 8dB, means that there's neither a boost or a cut in the target curve. Raising the target curve up to +3dB, now a change of 11dB, results in a boost from reference of only 3dB.

Now, since we are talking about target curves, the actual amount of boost or cut from the raw speaker/room response will, as always, depend on what the uncorrected response is.

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post #373 of 394 Old 10-18-2009, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

C'mon. If the original target is down 8dB, that is an attenuation 8dB. So raising the target curve to 0, a change of 8dB, means that there's neither a boost or a cut in the target curve. Raising the target curve up to +3dB, now a change of 11dB, results in a boost from reference of only 3dB.

Now, since we are talking about target curves, the actual amount of boost or cut from the raw speaker/room response will, as always, depend on what the uncorrected response is.

But Audyssey's treble target is not an attenuation of the signal. I've seen enough uncorrected speaker responses to know that Audyssey's treble target is pretty close to the natural roll-off you get from a 1 inch tweeter at a 8 to 12 foot seat in a typical room. So to achieve flat treble at the seat, Audyssey would have to significantly boost the output of the tweeter, hence my question.
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post #374 of 394 Old 10-18-2009, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

But Audyssey's treble target is not an attenuation of the signal.

No, it represents a potential attenuation from flat.
Quote:


I've seen enough uncorrected speaker responses to know that Audyssey's treble target is pretty close to the natural roll-off you get from a 1 inch tweeter at a 8 to 12 foot seat in a typical room.

So, that would mean that the default Audyssey target would neither boost nor cut the uncorrected output?

Quote:


So to achieve flat treble at the seat, Audyssey would have to significantly boost the output of the tweeter, hence my question.

I guess that depends what you mean by "significantly." 5-8dB is significant but not troubling, particularly at HF.

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post #375 of 394 Old 10-18-2009, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

So, that would mean that the default Audyssey target would neither boost nor cut the uncorrected output?

Correct.

Quote:


I guess that depends what you mean by "significantly." 5-8dB is significant but not troubling, particularly at HF.

I would also consider 5-8dB significant, and it seems to be common wisdom that one shouldn't boost the treble too much. I'm not saying that know one way or another. What have you read that leads you to believe that an 8dB boost is not a problem for HF?
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post #376 of 394 Old 10-18-2009, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

I would also consider 5-8dB significant, and it seems to be common wisdom that one shouldn't boost the treble too much. I'm not saying that know one way or another. What have you read that leads you to believe that an 8dB boost is not a problem for HF?

I would be more concerned with LF or low MF boosts as they would affect amplifier headroom. There's generally so little energy in the 15-20kHz range that a boost there is not a challenge. In practice, I have heard nothing troubling.

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post #377 of 394 Old 10-18-2009, 08:17 PM
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I agree that there isn't a lot of content in the upper treble, but I would still be concerned with an 8dB boost if listening at or near reference levels for the sake of the tweeter's voice coil, not so much the amp power required.

Do you listen with flat treble response at high volumes?
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post #378 of 394 Old 10-19-2009, 04:50 AM
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I guess I have always liked to set up a reference balance and then listen to the recordings as they are.With Audyssey (NAD version)I find all of my recordings sound better than before.
Since music is an emotional communication, I suppose one might attempt to enhance that with eq or tone control adjustments specifically for each recording,but it would seems unlikely to be the artists intention.IMHO.
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post #379 of 394 Old 10-19-2009, 10:26 AM
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"Thus, I was able to move the -8dB point to 0 (8dB change) but I could also, if I wanted to, to move it to +3dB (11dB change)."

Either I was blind yesterday or you did an edit soon enough to not have it indicated as such.

Anyway, thanks for the clarification.

Noah
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post #380 of 394 Old 10-19-2009, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Do you listen with flat treble response at high volumes?

I listen with treble flat almost all the time at what ever level I choose. However, I should say that, while I can listen to music at pretty much any level I choose, I usually do not listen to movies at reference level.

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post #381 of 394 Old 10-19-2009, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddingle View Post

Since music is an emotional communication, I suppose one might attempt to enhance that with eq or tone control adjustments specifically for each recording,but it would seems unlikely to be the artists intention.IMHO.

Because there are no standards for musical recordings, there is no way of knowing if what you are hearing is as the artist intended, even if your system is accurate.

More thoughts on this subject here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1162044
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post #382 of 394 Old 10-19-2009, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

I listen with treble flat almost all the time at what ever level I choose. However, I should say that, while I can listen to music at pretty much any level I choose, I usually do not listen to movies at reference level.

So you forgo the roll-off in the treble when using Audyssey?

I've tried that, but the sound becomes unnaturally etched to these ears. I EQ to flat up to about 15K and don't touch it above that point. I *think* this is because to get flat treble as measured at the LP, you have to put a rise in the direct response to compensate for the lack of reflected energy. So what I hear is lifted treble even though the measurement is flat.
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post #383 of 394 Old 10-19-2009, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

So you forgo the roll-off in the treble when using Audyssey?

Generally.

Quote:


I've tried that, but the sound becomes unnaturally etched to these ears. I EQ to flat up to about 15K and don't touch it above that point. I *think* this is because to get flat treble as measured at the LP, you have to put a rise in the direct response to compensate for the lack of reflected energy. So what I hear is lifted treble even though the measurement is flat.

That is a reasonable analysis but it depends greatly on the dispersion characteristics of the tweeter and on many room properties. That said, I suspect that, if I did as you suggest, I might not hear much of a difference given the fall-off in my hearing in that range.

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post #384 of 394 Old 10-22-2009, 08:06 AM
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Hi guys

Some time passed since last time I read this discussion and I see that there are still some misinformation or misunderstanding. I am very surprised that no one from Audyssey explains here how their system works.
I will try, but first please consider that I am NOT an “Audyssey expert”, I am trained by them, I attend almost every training and demo they provide in MA or CEDIA and I calibrate receivers equipped with “Audyssey Pro” option, so I have some experiences in this field. (BTW it is Audyssey not Audessey)

So:
1. “Audyssey MultEQ XT” removes distortion caused by the interaction of sound from loudspeakers within the room.
2. “Audyssey” provides 2000+ band equalizer for every audio channel.
3. “Audyssey” calibration must be done properly. If not – result may be really bad.
4. “Audyssey” offers couple of options. One of option – which nobody mentioned here - is “Audyssey Flat”. “Audyssey Flat” is designed for music. “Audyssey MultEQ XT” is designed for movies.

Audyssey created three target sound options (for movies)



All of them are adjustable.
Midrange compensation can be turned off and roll of can be adjusted per every channel.

Why they created “Target Curves”?
Movies mixed for large theaters. In a smaller room at home, Audyssey applies a gentle rolloff for high frequencies and midrange compensation, when you select MultEQ XT. However, if the movie already had the high-frequency corrected for homes, it is better to use Audyssey Flat mode.
If you play music, Audyssey Flat is the only proper option.


Chris. Try to listen to your stereo with “Audyssey flat” for several hours and then turn it off, please. I like to know your opinion.

As audioguy wrote: “Audyssey for the price and functionality is a no brainer. If it doesn't work in your environment, there are other much more expensive solutions.”

Best Regards
LL

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post #385 of 394 Old 10-22-2009, 08:32 AM
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I think Audyssey flat is also recommended for highly treated (room treatment) HT rooms.

Mike
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post #386 of 394 Old 10-24-2009, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post

I think Audyssey flat is also recommended for highly treated (room treatment) HT rooms.

Mike

I would recommend Audyssey flat if I am in well treated room. So far I calibrated receivers installed in living rooms.

BTW two days ago I was on "For love of music event" where I listened to Snell A7 Illusion speakers driven by McIntosh preamplifier and power amplifier.
Music was amazing! I'm not sure that Audyssey or other equalization could make important improvement. Maybe just small one. Yes, room is well treated.

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post #387 of 394 Old 10-24-2009, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zygmunt View Post

I am very surprised that no one from Audyssey explains here how their system works.

Hi,

Thanks for your input.

Prof. Chris Kyriakakis, is Chief Technology Officer for Audyssey and he is an extremely active poster over at the "Offical" Audyssey thread. Due to commitments on his time it is not practical for him to follow multiple threads, but folks can post MultEQ Pro questions at that thread and he will respond.


Quote:


4. “Audyssey” offers couple of options. One of option – which nobody mentioned here - is “Audyssey Flat”. “Audyssey Flat” is designed for music. “Audyssey MultEQ XT” is designed for movies.
Audyssey created three target sound options (for movies)



All of them are adjustable.
Midrange compensation can be turned off and roll of can be adjusted per every channel.

Why they created “Target Curves”?
Movies mixed for large theaters. In a smaller room at home, Audyssey applies a gentle rolloff for high frequencies and midrange compensation, when you select MultEQ XT. However, if the movie already had the high-frequency corrected for homes, it is better to use Audyssey Flat mode.
If you play music, Audyssey Flat is the only proper option.

I don't think it is technically correct to state that MultEQ XT is specifically designed exclusively for movies. As you state it was designed to correct for the influence of the room on sounds, and that objective is not limited to just movies. In other words, MultEQ XT is designed to smooth the frequency response for both movies and music.

The high frequency roll-offs of the target curves are designed to take into consideration differences in the acoustics between the recording environment and the listening environment. That is, the balance of direct sounds and reflected sounds is usually different between the mixing and listening environments and at higher frequencies, where speakers become more directive, it is usually necessary to roll-off the highs to avoid overly bright sounds in typical home setups. Whereas it is true that only movies have published standards for mixing, nevertheless, many music mixes which are frequently mixed hotter than movies, may also benefit from a high frequency roll-off.

Obviously, the third target curve, SMPTE 202M, is specifically designed for commercial movie theaters or large venues, but the other two target curves may be useful for music depending on the room. That is, lively home listening environments may benefit from a roll-off even when listening to music.

The reason for developing a Flat target curve wasn't so much to deal with music, but rather to accommodate THX listening modes which introduce their own approach to high frequency roll-offs, THX Re-EQ. The Flat target curve also accommodates those situations where the listener is seated in the near field. The following is an excerpt from the Audyssey Pro user's guide discussing the issue.

Quote:


In addition to the user selected curve, MultEQ uses a Flat curve to create equalization filters that correct the response to flat from the low frequency cutoff point that MultEQ Pro has determined to the upper frequency limit of the tweeters. This setting must be used in a THX system in order to allow THX re-equalization to operate as it was intended. It is also recommended for very small or highly treated rooms in which the listener is seated close to the loudspeakers.

Larry
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post #388 of 394 Old 10-27-2009, 03:31 AM
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After following this thread I'm considering the Audyssey Sound Equalizer with my Theta CBIII. There is no dealer within a few hours and I would appreciate any lead to a dealer that would ship the balanced unit with Pro kit at a discount. Please PM if you have a suggestion.

Has anyone tried the standalone unit w/o an Audyssey equipped processor?
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post #389 of 394 Old 10-27-2009, 05:28 AM
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DaveN, I use a Balanced Pro unit. Works well. (The only limitation vs. new processors is that you don't get the Dynamic EQ or Dynamic Volume functionality.)

In my system it does a terrific job of improving the tonal and time alignment of the mains and surrounds. I bypass it for the left and right mains when I am doing pure two channel listening, but find it makes a material improvement for surround and sub intensive applications.
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post #390 of 394 Old 10-30-2009, 09:59 PM
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What "Movies" do you use as your "reference" ?
There's a lot of talk about calibrating but what do the "Calibrators" use as their reference and how do they know how it should sound?
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