Audessey professional calibration worth every penny - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 394 Old 10-02-2009, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

I think it depends on the listening level. At reference or high volume the room will come into play more. At average listening levels i think the hifi will beat mid-fi everytime. But i agree the room is very important along with all those other things you mentioned to get the most out of hifi speakers. Especially at loud volumes.

I need you to give my garage a stern talking to! That sucker always comes out to play when I unleash acoustic energy into it!! Those surfaces refuse to diffuse and they never absorb even at low energy levels. And the modes, oh the modes, even at low excitation they think everyhing should be served "a la mode" ( ouch ). Louder here, softer there, and completely unintelligible. Well ok, the pipe organ is kinda cool!

Anyway, I need help housebreaking the room. Do you send the Sheetrock and concrete to the same school as the directional cables?

Enough yanking your chain, but truly the room is always there and it is one box that does not care what other boxes you drag into it.

And yes, I am teasing just to make a point is all.

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post #182 of 394 Old 10-02-2009, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamin View Post

Short of outright clipping, the short answer is no. The best analogy I know of to describe the problem is this:

How much heat can your fingertip take before you are hurt? Turns out it is time AND temperature. Flick da finger through the candle flame up close and not much happens. Hold it there and yowie! Move up a foot and you can take more time before pain.

Power x Time is energy. Voice coil can only take so much in a given time. Low average power and ocassional peaks is one thing. Higher average can't take too much more. Is the music highly compressed, that is low peak to average ratio, and played at high level for long periods? Or is the source material have a low average with a big peak to average ratio played at a level where only the peaks reach the max? See what I mean? Very program dependant. Then don't forget the actual spectral content as well.

I like your style: lighthearted but very informative.

So then, how do I tell if there is the audio equivelent of a hot finger tip going on inside my tweeter's voice coil? Some sort of audible distortion? Sticking a meat themometer in one of the ports? Military spec thermal imaging?
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post #183 of 394 Old 10-02-2009, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamin View Post

All of the elements are inextricably comingled.

Wow! What a profound statement! I know I have heard that some place before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

I like your style: lighthearted but very informative.

Jamin is quite the character.

Gentlemen, what you are experiencing from appelz, jamin, Dennis, etc. is the exactly what is passed on to those who walk through the halls of the Home Acoustics Alliance school of acoustical ineptitude. As I said, you WILL learn how to calibrate a home listening environment.

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post #184 of 394 Old 10-02-2009, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo View Post

Wow! What a profound statement! I know I have heard that some place before.



Jamin is quite the character.

Gentlemen, what you are experiencing from appelz, jamin, Dennis, etc. is the exactly what is passed on to those who walk through the halls of the Home Acoustics Alliance school of acoustical ineptitude. As I said, you WILL learn how to calibrate a home listening environment.

What's the fee for the course work? How long and where?
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post #185 of 394 Old 10-02-2009, 06:30 PM
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Go to www.homeacoustics.net to find out when the next class will be. I think the next one is actually in New Jersey if I am not mistaken.

http://www.homeacoustics.net/DealerS...DealerHome.asp

Email them for cost.

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post #186 of 394 Old 10-02-2009, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Me, too. I wish I could sign up to do it but not until I retire from my day job.


What exactly is your day job?

I mean get real and give us all a clue as
to what it is that you do to make a living.

And where exactly is your day job at?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Not to mention how you can spend so much time
posting on AVS given that you have a full time job.

As well as that you seem to have residences in both NYC and Connecticut state.

Cheers

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post #187 of 394 Old 10-02-2009, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Me, too. I wish I could sign up to do it but not until I retire from my day job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

What exactly is your day job?

I mean get real and give us all a clue as
to what it is that you do to make a living.

And where exactly is your day job at?

And that's your business because?
Quote:


Inquiring minds want to know.

Inquiring minds that can't read? He posted a link to his job two pages back. Here it is again, not that he owed it to anyone:
http://www.med.nyu.edu/research/rubink01.html
Quote:


Not to mention how you can spend so much time
posting on AVS given that you have a full time job.

How do you know how much time he spends? Maybe it equals an hour a day. Either way, it's his time.
Quote:


As well as that you seem to have residences in both NYC and Connecticut state. Cheers

Now you're getting downright scary. Is there some reason you are concerned with how many homes he has? "Cheers" right back at ya.
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post #188 of 394 Old 10-03-2009, 01:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

What exactly is your day job?

I mean get real and give us all a clue as
to what it is that you do to make a living.

And where exactly is your day job at?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Not to mention how you can spend so much time
posting on AVS given that you have a full time job.

As well as that you seem to have residences in both NYC and Connecticut state.

Cheers

What a disturbing post.

Thank you for reminding us why we should never post personal details.

I hope Kal doesn't wake up one morning to find you, pummeling the Purple Polaris, stood at the foot of his bed.

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post #189 of 394 Old 10-03-2009, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

I like your style: lighthearted but very informative.

So then, how do I tell if there is the audio equivelent of a hot finger tip going on inside my tweeter's voice coil? Some sort of audible distortion? Sticking a meat themometer in one of the ports? Military spec thermal imaging?

Thanks.
I like the meat thermometer. All speakers could have dials on the front. "Man was I red-lining last night, wow!"

Unfortunately (you knew it was coming), not so easy. High brow papers have been written about this stuff and it isn't easy. Heating and cooling of voice coils, power compression, audibility of such, etc. Mostly woofs because the wire in the HF transducers is small and it can get "smoked" way faster than a woof. Smoked as in poof!

Pro guys use various measurements, they got all the 'tronics and processing hooked up ya know. Rms, average, etc. Generally agreed, hmm- I think, peak measure is not it. They can fight over RMS vs Average and such. They also know a lot about what is in the signal path. How much juice going onto the box is getting to the transducer, how much can the transducer take ( they fried em in the past ), blah, blah.

Trick is, when you push a tiny wired speak to the limit, you figure it out about the time the voice coil opens!! Yipes!

Think about this, have you moved your head around to make sure you are in the main axis of the tweet. At the higher frequencies, some speakers are fairly narrow in their dispersion and when you get too far off axis that energy can just drop right off. A bit of toe or tilt can make all the difference. Might mean you can ease up on your HF boost!

Hah, first private demo of Audyssey I experienced they had the center channel pointing at peoples knees! Standard center channel goofy stand. Mains were a bit low as well. A pile of us hooligans grabbed phonebook equivalents and commeced to modify the vertical tilt of things and then continued with the audition.

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post #190 of 394 Old 10-03-2009, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamin View Post

Hah, first private demo of Audyssey I experienced they had the center channel pointing at peoples knees! Standard center channel goofy stand. Mains were a bit low as well. A pile of us hooligans grabbed phonebook equivalents and commeced to modify the vertical tilt of things and then continued with the audition.

Perhaps it was intentional. At the first private demo I had (in an awful hotel room), they had the surrounds placed so that the left was near my left ear and the right was behind a lamp. I do not even recall where the center was but the L/R placement was decidedly asymmetric.

"Hey, if they can fit you, they must be great tailors!"

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http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #191 of 394 Old 10-03-2009, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

...................
My own experience with Audyssey has been less satisfactory than your own.

It depends how it's done. Audyssey doesn't fix bad installations. You have to place speakers correctly and prepare room for good audio performance, it means install bass traps, diffusers, absorbers (if possible) and THAN use Audyssey for room equalization.

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post #192 of 394 Old 10-03-2009, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post

Are you saying you must have a software like Audessey or MACC to conduct room correction?

I was thinking any professional can perform room correction as long as he has a test tone generator and other required equipment such as a microphone.

Sorry if I am being really ignorant here.

There are two different things.
1. Room correction, and treatment,
2. Audyssey room equalization.
What Audyssey PRO does, is like adjusting 2000+ band sophisticated equalizer for every speaker in your system including subwoofer and also automatically sets crossover frequency between speakers and sub.
You can't do it without Audyssey; you have no access to 2000+band equalizer for every audio channel in your system.
You have to do step 1 before you go to step 2

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post #193 of 394 Old 10-03-2009, 10:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

I think it depends on the listening level. At reference or high volume the room will come into play more. At average listening levels i think the hifi will beat mid-fi everytime. But i agree the room is very important along with all those other things you mentioned to get the most out of hifi speakers. Especially at loud volumes.

Really? If this because the laws of physics change depending on volume?
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post #194 of 394 Old 10-03-2009, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Shapiro View Post

I guess that you have.

Still, with no local dealer, it would be a crapshoot for me. Also, I've gotten away from buying gear from one-trick-pony companies.

David

Did you check this?

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post #195 of 394 Old 10-03-2009, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Perhaps it was intentional. At the first private demo I had (in an awful hotel room), they had the surrounds placed so that the left was near my left ear and the right was behind a lamp. I do not even recall where the center was but the L/R placement was decidedly asymmetric.

"Hey, if they can fit you, they must be great tailors!"

Yes, it was intentional. We were looking to find a little more about the Audyssey response when dealing with a situation that was a bit better in the first place.

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post #196 of 394 Old 10-03-2009, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post
.......................

And I would agree with him as to the benefits of Audyssey PRO rather than the basic included-mic user-calibration. Basic Audyssey also makes a world of difference, but Audyssey PRO really finishes things off better in my experience.
I calibrated Denon AVR 4308CI after owner already calibrated his receiver himself. He used supplied microphone.

 

PB.pdf 152.8359375k . file

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post #197 of 394 Old 10-03-2009, 11:30 AM
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"If this because the laws of physics change depending on volume?"

Damping is nonlinear with level because of stiction.

At low levels the drywall stays "stuck" to the faces of the wall studs, but at higher levels there's squirming and sliding, and damping increases.

This is true of most any multipart structure.

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post #198 of 394 Old 10-03-2009, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zygmunt View Post

It depends how it's done. Audyssey doesn't fix bad installations.

It was nothing to do with how it was done, and the install wasn't the issue. The Audyssey was simply incapable of delivering the results required.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zygmunt View Post

You have to place speakers correctly and prepare room for good audio performance, it means install bass traps, diffusers, absorbers (if possible) and THAN use Audyssey for room equalization.

Judging by that advice, and I do appreciate the thought behind it, I think we are coming from rather different standpoints.

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post #199 of 394 Old 10-03-2009, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

...........Audyssey is a step in the right direction, but it doesn't work for me in its current form.

What version did you use?

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post #200 of 394 Old 10-03-2009, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zygmunt View Post

There are two different things.
1. Room correction, and treatment,
2. Audyssey room equalization.
What Audyssey PRO does, is like adjusting 2000+ band sophisticated equalizer for every speaker in your system including subwoofer and also automatically sets crossover frequency between speakers and sub.
You can’t do it without Audyssey; you have no access to 2000+band equalizer for every audio channel in your system.
You have to do step 1 before you go to step 2

The need for Audyssey in a professional calibration seems to be one of those sore topics that well-informed people can't agree with.
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post #201 of 394 Old 10-03-2009, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zygmunt View Post

What version did you use?

I had the original stand-alone pro unit, before the option to set a target curve was implemented.
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post #202 of 394 Old 10-03-2009, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post

The need for Audyssey in a professional calibration seems to be one of those sore topics that well-informed people can't agree with.

Not really. I still use Audyssey, and promote it, if that is what people want. However, if someone is willing to pay for the extra time and effort, I am willing and able to do it without the use of Audyssey. There is no crime or abhoration in using it, and Audyssey has done more to promote good sounding rooms than any other company. I guess the moral here is that Audyssey is not the magic bullet. It does not replace the need for proper design, seating and speaker positioning, and treatment, and Audyssey will not say otherwise. It can be, or is, just another piece in the puzzle to use jamin's analogy. I wouldn't be embarassed in using it. Not in the least. What most are saying is that it CAN be better if you have the right person at the helm.

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post #203 of 394 Old 10-03-2009, 11:30 PM
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I have heard, and measurement wise seen, Audyssey do some amazing things. It is a tool. You know when you only have a hammer, well lotsa stuff looks like nails. When you have a box full of different tools you see things differently.

I got called into a dedicated cinema that had all Cabasse speakers installed in Art Deco Niches (sp?). Barrel ceiling and Stucco & murialed walls. I called it the reverb room. I believe it was designed by "We B Toys" or something.

Anyway, those speakers stuck in those cubby holes had a serious high Q notch in the response. Darned but that Audyssey did do an amazing job of trying to fix that. It could not remedy it of course, but shure tamed it some. Given that it was a serious Phase based notch I was stunned. Those speakers had to be being harrased quite a bit at the afflicted frequency I'm sure.

The system did sound better with the Audysseys kicked in. Still a reverb room, but better! By the way, that was the way I found the room, FWIW.

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post #204 of 394 Old 10-03-2009, 11:48 PM
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I think Dennis and Adam have handled the house curve thing and the Q elements as well. Figured I might toss in some additional Hmm? stuff.

Turns out it can be a bit of a pain to actually measure flat. Meaning the measurement itself is fraught with some peril. You can have a direct sound wave hitting the mic with 0 degree incidence, no reflections, swept measurement, and a proper cal file for the mic and you can probably trust the measurement. Well sorta, maybe.
Oops-gotta tend to a thunderstorm - back in a bit...

That is with a free field calibrated mic. And proper mic technique.

If you have reflections that changes things. Now the heavy weights tell us that no way are we gonna get isotropic "homogenous" fields in our small rooms so...what to do. Anything other than direct incidence will read rong. Multiple wave fronts impinging on the mic simultaneously will read rong. Using a random incidence mike instead can flip things around the otherway.

Grab a B&K multi-field and your probably good to +1/-3 dB above a few KHz. Use random noise on an RTA and your probably reading low- statistics thing. Spatial/temporal averaging and you have another slope to deal with.

Then there is what is it we are measuring thing. Direct sound, reflections, or steady state? All different measures, with different techniques. And you can bounce around those as you move through the spectrum, depending on room acoustics, seating distance, and transducer directivity.

That whole flat deal is a slippery little sucker!

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post #205 of 394 Old 10-03-2009, 11:49 PM
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Jamin -

Frankly, I can't make much sense of the results I got with Audyssey Pro. The after graph was very flat from 20Hz to roughly 10KHz with the intended roll-off above that point. But what I heard sounded anything but accurate. The upper bass sounded like a peak had been introduced, the upper midrange, which sounded too hot before Audyssey, sounded even more spotlit afterwards. The only thing that it seemed to do correctly was fill-in a dip in the lower mids.

And on the subject of me boosting the treble 3dB, that pales in comparison to what was done here by Audyssey:



It looks like Audyssey has boosted the upper treble a good 8-9dB. That doesn't seem like a good thing based on our discussion earlier.
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post #206 of 394 Old 10-04-2009, 01:23 AM
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A certain "high flying" acoustician and frequent proponent of expensive Scottish moonshine, pointed me in the direction of the QSC DSP 322ua.

PDF; http://www.qscaudio.com/products/net.../dsp_322ua.php

Is the approach of the calibrator altered in any way when using the QSC or similar device, compared to the Audyssey tools?

Sean
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post #207 of 394 Old 10-04-2009, 09:29 AM
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Hi Sean,

No, many calibrators will use QSC DSP products in the chain. However, they can be tricky little buggers to the novice, and if you don't understand how to calculate and implement Q as well as intrumentation that will get you really close that exact frequency peak, a PEQ won't be of much use to you. This is where Audyssey does become a plus.

Regarding the approach, not sure what you mean, but no, there is no different approach in the general sense of the term. I do exactly the same thing whether I use a QSC product or Audyssey. That is to say, I listen, I suggest, I listen, I move, I listen, I measure, I listen, I move some more, I'll measure this time before I listen, I'll listen, I'll PEQ, I'll measure, I'll listen, I'll add treatment, I'll listen and finally add Audyssey if I didn't PEQ, then I'll measure again and maybe change some things.

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post #208 of 394 Old 10-04-2009, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Jamin -

Frankly, I can't make much sense of the results I got with Audyssey Pro. The after graph was very flat from 20Hz to roughly 10KHz with the intended roll-off above that point. But what I heard sounded anything but accurate. The upper bass sounded like a peak had been introduced, the upper midrange, which sounded too hot before Audyssey, sounded even more spotlit afterwards. The only thing that it seemed to do correctly was fill-in a dip in the lower mids.

And on the subject of me boosting the treble 3dB, that pales in comparison to what was done here by Audyssey:



It looks like Audyssey has boosted the upper treble a good 8-9dB. That doesn't seem like a good thing based on our discussion earlier.

Tim,

The results you describe are atypical. I wonder if you could outline some of the parameters that resulted in the graph you posted? Were you using the Audyssey Pro Calibrator kit? Were you using software version 2.5, 3.0, or 3.1? Which Denon model did you calibrate? Did you unlock the Pro version with a license key? Have you taken Audyssey Pro training? Did you follow the best-practices guidelines for taking measurements? How many measurements did you take?

Forgive me if my questions seem impertinent. It's just that every properly executed Audyssey calibration I have ever heard or done has resulted in significant improvement. There has to be an explanation for the kind of outcome you describe above.
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post #209 of 394 Old 10-04-2009, 11:06 AM
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Pete -

That graph I posted was not mine. That was just an example taken from another user that posted earlier in this thread to show that Audyssey was applying a 9dB boost to the top octave.

I've got an appointment, but here is the before and after for some Monitor Audio GS speakers I owned last year when I had the original Audyssey pro unit.



Here's what my set-up looked like.



Speaker and subwoofer placement are dictated by the room layout, which is why I had hoped that Audyssey would help.
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post #210 of 394 Old 10-04-2009, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Pete -

That graph I posted was not mine. That was just an example taken from another user that posted earlier in this thread to show that Audyssey was applying a 9dB boost to the top octave.

I've got an appointment, but here is the before and after for some Monitor Audio GS speakers I owned last year when I had the original Audyssey pro unit.



Here's what my set-up looked like.



Speaker and subwoofer placement are dictated by the room layout, which is why I had hoped that Audyssey would help.


I know you said that speaker placement was dictated by the layout, but honestly, based on what I see just from the photo very little could help you just as depicted. Subwoofer corner placement will aggravate room modes, L/R speakers are way too close to get a pleasing soundstage (not sure how far you are sitting away) even if you were close, you probably would be too close, center channel in cabinet with no acoustical treatment. As I said before, you need to get the room the best you can as far as placement or treatment before you implement Audyssey or other means of correction. This is fairly typical of what I run into, and folks do expect Audyssey to fix the problems. It can't. Neither could I without making some significant changes. It doesn't matter how many times you upgrade or change out speakers or equipment, the fact is, the application is all wrong. I don't mean to be blunt or critical, and all I am going off is a photo, but these are fairly common problems.

Shawn Byrne
Erskine Group
HAA Design Certified -THX Certified Professional

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The original Pro Theater Layout
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