ADA Mach 4......WOW!!!! - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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Old 09-20-2010, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I do...sub owners.

I'm going to hear the big TEQ set up with the Mach IV at CEDIA. I will certainly report.

Then again, maybe not. I just met with a financial advisor and he told me (what I already knew)...no one is going to invest their way to financial freedom... It's what you save.

I look forward to reading your findings...sounds [pun intended] as though you are in the same boat as me in that you are trying to compare and dertemine the value proposition of QSC vs TEQ; that is, what incremental gains, if any, does the TEQ have over the QSC and, assuming it does have some, then is price proposition reasonable...

So, let me know...

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Old 09-20-2010, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joelc View Post

you are in the same boat as me in that you are trying to compare and dertemine the value proposition of QSC vs TEQ; that is, what incremental gains, if any, does the TEQ have over the QSC and, assuming it does have some, then is price proposition reasonable...

Along those same lines, I'm curious how different the end result would sound between the QSC and the ADA's own PEQ when tuned by the same fellow/method. If not very different, seems one could save some good coin.

Re Trinnov, no PEQ can do remapping, so it's apples to oranges, unless remapping is not used. Did my theories on how it might prove useful in your situation stir any thoughts? It's a very specific case, so I suspect any demo reports from CEDIA about remapping will likely not be all that applicable to your case.

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Old 09-20-2010, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Along those same lines, I'm curious how different the end result would sound between the QSC and the ADA's own PEQ when tuned by the same fellow/method. If not very different, seems one could save some good coin.

Mot in my case as I have 3 subwoofers and hence need more channels that the PEQ offers to balance out the subwoofers...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Re Trinnov, no PEQ can do remapping, so it's apples to oranges, unless remapping is not used. Did my theories on how it might prove useful in your situation stir any thoughts? It's a very specific case, so I suspect any demo reports from CEDIA about remapping will likely not be all that applicable to your case.

As much as I would like to respond I am admittedly a little out of my depth on this one...that said, I hoping to get feedback from a number of people who will be attending CEDIA to learn their thoughts...

And, as Jeff insunuated, I need to be convinced that the result will be noticeable better than what can be achieved with my current setup because $15,000 is not a drop in the bucket especially when I have USD 15,000 or so already invested in two QSC 922uzs...

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Old 09-20-2010, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Joelc View Post

... Jeff insunuated, I need to be convinced that the result will be noticeable better than what can be achieved with my current setup because $15,000 is not a drop in the bucket especially when I have USD 15,000 or so already invested in two QSC 922uzs...

For me, two words sell me on Trinnov: phase coherency.

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Old 09-20-2010, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post

For me, two words sell the Trinnov: phase coherency.

I am having a tough night with very little sleep, a very bad cold and too many meds...are you saying to i) keep the Trinnov [and sell the QSC] or ii) sell the Trinnov [and keep the QSC] and, regardless of which, can you please explain your thinking...

Thanks so much...

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Old 09-20-2010, 07:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

UPDATE:

Too many family / kid functions. Also, had to run out to replace my Radio Shack SPL meter. Bought the analog one this time.

1. Did connected all my sources and fully programmed the Mach IV except for doing 'Speaker Levels'. I expect to do that tonight and finally I will be able to see/hear what I bought!.

2. I programmed in 3 different seating area sweet spots (My chair, middle row center, front row center). Each will have it's own levels and delays stored for easy recall depending on where I sit! NOTE: You can program this item so that it reverts to a default sweet spot when you turn off the SSP. In particular, I am very excited to be able to have levels and delays for the front row as sometimes I feel like sitting in front for maximum video immersion... but when i do, the soundscape is cockeyed as things are set for the row in the middle.

3. The piece passed all 5 sources via HDMI, no handshake issues, no clicks or pops. I finally am able to bitstream the lossless tracks. Had to switch all players from LPCM.

4. 12 VDC Trigger for amps is functional.

5. Programming from the software program has been a dream. You can play in real time with the piece and see feedback for everything you do. For setting levels, I will do it (wirelessly) from my Mac and can individually select pink noise to any speaker in any order I choose. No more waiting as the noise goes around the room (unless I selct that option).

6. RS-232 commands are fast.

So how does it sound??????

I know it sounds great and looks great.....but can we communicate with it? If not it is useless:)
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Old 09-20-2010, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by TheLion View Post

Roger,

I am interested in your personal listening preference. Could you show us a graphical representation of your "house curve".

I have no idea how to separate the room tuning from the house curve, as they are done together in the one PEQ bank. Nor did I start from a properly tuned room and added it on top. The only reason know it is not "flat" is because no auto room EQ hits my target.

One target curve I have seen that shares my inflection point below 100 Hz is from the Harman SDEC manual as below. I added the red curve which gives you an idea of what I'm doing, best as I can figure.
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Old 09-20-2010, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joelc View Post


I am having a tough night with very little sleep, a very bad cold and too many meds...are you saying to i) keep the Trinnov [and sell the QSC] or ii) sell the Trinnov [and keep the QSC] and, regardless of which, can you please explain your thinking...

Thanks so much...

I'm saying, if there is a better tool for achieving the level of phase coherency Trinnov processing delivers, I'm not aware of it.

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Old 09-20-2010, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Joelc View Post

Mot in my case as I have 3 subwoofers and hence need more channels that the PEQ offers to balance out the subwoofers...

Ahh. I understand. Are your subs carrying the same signal--or three different channels of bass? If the same signal, I wonder, if you drove all three subs with the same signal, and ran one channel of EQ, would that not achieve equally good results? Or as that already been tried and found inadequate?

Quote:


And, as Jeff insunuated, I need to be convinced that the result will be noticeable better than what can be achieved with my current setup because $15,000 is not a drop in the bucket especially when I have USD 15,000 or so already invested in two QSC 922uzs...

Exactly! I'm still wondering about using zero QSCs. Hey, feel better soon!

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Old 09-20-2010, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post

I'm saying, if there is a better tool for achieving the level of phase coherency Trinnov processing delivers, I'm not aware of it.

How does that translate to perceived sound quality?

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Old 09-20-2010, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Ahh. I understand. Are your subs carrying the same signal--or three different channels of bass? If the same signal, I wonder, if you drove all three subs with the same signal, and ran one channel of EQ, would that not achieve equally good results? Or as that already been tried and found inadequate?

The subs are all carrying the same signal but do need to be controlled separately given their differing positions, etc.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Exactly! I'm still wondering about using zero QSCs. Hey, feel better soon!

Exactly as I need to be convinced [or, better ye, shown] that the sound quality will be materially inproved for the USD 15,000 price tag and, unless this can be made clear, the QSC units will remain and there will be no TEQ-12 in my future...

Thanks I need to get off this forum and get some rest...

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Old 09-20-2010, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post

I'm saying, if there is a better tool for achieving the level of phase coherency Trinnov processing delivers, I'm not aware of it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

How does that translate to perceived sound quality?

Roger has hit the nail on the head with his comment as to what is the real improvement in sound; that is what differences can be heard rather than measured because I would pay to hear the difference but would not pay to see the difference on a graph [that is not translated into an audible difference]...

The best analogy that I can use is that between the benefits/differences between 96KHz and 48 KHz recordings...the response from an acknowledge source to which I posed this questions was "...the difference between 48kHz and 96kHz, is something which can be measured... the audible differences...I doubt very much anyone would be able to hear that difference..."

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Old 09-20-2010, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

How does [phase coherency] translate to perceived sound quality?

This topic probably deserves it's own thread... But (as it pertains to the TEQ) picture all the channels as different musicians in a band... Image how much better the band would sound if their timing was perfectly in sync. Trinnov gets all the processed channels perfectly in time. It makes a huge difference IMHO.

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Old 09-20-2010, 08:50 PM
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OK a couple things.

1. Set all up, connected my amps and noticed a buzz that is in all channels. I unplugged all source cables (HDMI), BUS connections and all interconnects from the MACH IV (all but one amplifier to see if I had a bad cable or something causing this). To test, I checked that only the Mach IV and one amplifier were plugged into the same, one circuit - nothing else plugged into the MACH IV. Still the buzz. I can hear maybe from 1-2 ft away. It does not change in volume not matter how high I set the gain. It is in all speakers. I cannot hear it from the seating positions around the room and is more annoying than problematic. Doesn't sound like a ground loop. What do you think / suggestions? I like perfection!

2. After configuring it all in the software program, I loaded the file again then hit 'SEND ALL' and immediately after, my amps all shut off (all are on turned on my triggers). Even though the triggers were set to ON in the software program, they would not fire up. Even if I turned them on and off in the software program. When I checked the trigger setting by using the front panel controls, I could see it was set to OFF. I turned it on using the front panel controls and it stayed on. This happened to all sources. I had to manually turn the trigger back on for all. Though I was getting feedback using the computer program and I had the triggers set to ON, they were not 'ON' in the MACH IV. Might be a software bug.

3. Relatedly, when firing up the software program, I hit UPDATE ALL and then hit the LOAD FILE button. After I load the file, everything is loaded and looks good. But why does the SEND ALL button turn YELLOW after hitting LOAD? I never hit the SEND ALL button after loading settings but did so one time and I lost trigger commands from the software program. What is that all about?

4. Also, Joel had told me the command to have the OSD turn off after a certain time period. How do you do that again??

All is loaded, levels set, but with the buzz thing I ran out of time to test the sonics tonight. But I am ready to go!!

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Old 09-20-2010, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joelc View Post

Mot in my case as I have 3 subwoofers and hence need more channels that the PEQ offers to balance out the subwoofers...




As much as I would like to respond I am admittedly a little out of my depth on this one...that said, I hoping to get feedback from a number of people who will be attending CEDIA to learn their thoughts...

And, as Jeff insunuated, I need to be convinced that the result will be noticeable better than what can be achieved with my current setup because $15,000 is not a drop in the bucket especially when I have USD 15,000 or so already invested in two QSC 922uzs...

Joel, what are these 922's?
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Old 09-20-2010, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post

This topic probably deserves it's own thread... But (as it pertains to the TEQ) picture all the channels as different musicians in a band... Image how much better the band would sound if their timing was perfectly in sync. Trinnov gets all the processed channels perfectly in time. It makes a huge difference IMHO.

I'm not saying it does not make a difference, I'm just wondering how it manifests itself. So, you've heard it somewhere?

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Old 09-20-2010, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

1. Set all up, connected my amps and noticed a buzz that is in all channels.

Doesn't sound like a ground loop. What do you think / suggestions?

I presume that's not normal. You mentioned volume has no effect. Same for mute?

And of course, with the amps on, and the ADA turned off, the noise is gone?

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Old 09-20-2010, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

I'm not saying it does not make a difference, I'm just wondering how it manifests itself. So, you've heard it somewhere?

Although I don't have experience using ADA's TEQ, I have quite a bit of time with my ears behind Trinnov processing (and it's awesome).
Trinnov used to have more detailed info on their web page... Try this for starters, and then search Trinnov Optimizer.

http://www.trinnov.com/en/optimizati...tic-correction

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Old 09-20-2010, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

One target curve I have seen that shares my inflection point below 100 Hz is from the Harman SDEC manual as below. I added the red curve which gives you an idea of what I'm doing, best as I can figure.

That's a pretty potent dose of bass; do you use it for reference level, or do you never listen that loud?

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Old 09-21-2010, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

OK a couple things.

1. Set all up, connected my amps and noticed a buzz that is in all channels. I unplugged all source cables (HDMI), BUS connections and all interconnects from the MACH IV (all but one amplifier to see if I had a bad cable or something causing this). To test, I checked that only the Mach IV and one amplifier were plugged into the same, one circuit - nothing else plugged into the MACH IV. Still the buzz. I can hear maybe from 1-2 ft away. It does not change in volume not matter how high I set the gain. It is in all speakers. I cannot hear it from the seating positions around the room and is more annoying than problematic. Doesn't sound like a ground loop. What do you think / suggestions? I like perfection!

We have found this issue with exotic/directional analogue interconnects but only ever on RCA so far. What brand and model cables do you have?

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Old 09-21-2010, 01:32 AM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

That's a pretty potent dose of bass; do you use it for reference level, or do you never listen that loud?

That's just the point, I never listen at ref level. 20-30 dB down is the usual. This is for music. For movies I have a different preset that pulls the bass down 6 dB, and usually the LFE gets -10dB. But I don't play movies at ref either. Usually -15 dB.

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Old 09-21-2010, 01:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post

Although I don't have experience using ADA's TEQ, I have quite a bit of time with my ears behind Trinnov processing (and it's awesome).
Trinnov used to have more detailed info on their web page... Try this for starters, and then search Trinnov Optimizer.

Thanks, but I've read all their papers, and had the Sherwood 972 in my system for a short trial. I was just hoping you would describe the sensation of phasal correctotomy.

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Old 09-21-2010, 03:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

I presume that's not normal. You mentioned volume has no effect. Same for mute?

And of course, with the amps on, and the ADA turned off, the noise is gone?

Thanks Roger,

Yes. when I mute the SSP, the buzz remains. When the amps are on and the SSP off, no buzz.


Thanks!


No out for a morning run with my lovely wife!

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Old 09-21-2010, 04:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ceenhad View Post

We have found this issue with exotic/directional analogue interconnects but only ever on RCA so far. What brand and model cables do you have?


I'm using Monster Studio link XLRs (~$30/cable) in 6 channels and another brand in the other 2 channels. The buzz is all 7 LCRs. Very light can't hear it more than 1.5-2 ft away. Low level but there...

I have 2 or 3 other (cheaper) brands laying around my house. I can try them.

Thanks!

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Old 09-21-2010, 04:02 AM
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The simple check if it is the cables is to unplug the interconnects from the ADA then plug them in one at a time and check what happens to the volume of the noise as you add more connections. If it is related to the cables then the volume increases as you add more of them.

If the volume remains constant or is still there when the ADA is disconnected then it is possible that you have some noise on the output of the QSCs. Note I don't know these devices so not trying to suggest any problems!

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Old 09-21-2010, 04:32 AM
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Jeff:

I have to run to an early meeting so need to be brief [noting you can call me on my cell after 10:00 AM EST should you wish] but that said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

1. Set all up, connected my amps and noticed a buzz that is in all channels. I unplugged all source cables (HDMI), BUS connections and all interconnects from the MACH IV (all but one amplifier to see if I had a bad cable or something causing this). To test, I checked that only the Mach IV and one amplifier were plugged into the same, one circuit - nothing else plugged into the MACH IV. Still the buzz. I can hear maybe from 1-2 ft away. It does not change in volume not matter how high I set the gain. It is in all speakers. I cannot hear it from the seating positions around the room and is more annoying than problematic. Doesn't sound like a ground loop. What do you think / suggestions? I like perfection!

I do not know what type of connection you are using but I had a simialr [albeit less audible problem] and it was related to running balanced connectionc from the ADA to the QSC DSP and then to the QSC amplifiers...

I do not remember what the CI explained to me but basically he had to drop the ground on the connection to the QSC DSPs and all was resolved...the CI, who previously did professional installs, advised me that this was normal practice in the "pro world" when "daisy chaining" balanced conenctions as the +/- was being doubled...I can did up the information later tonight for you...


Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

2. After configuring it all in the software program, I loaded the file again then hit 'SEND ALL' and immediately after, my amps all shut off (all are on turned on my triggers). Even though the triggers were set to ON in the software program, they would not fire up. Even if I turned them on and off in the software program. When I checked the trigger setting by using the front panel controls, I could see it was set to OFF. I turned it on using the front panel controls and it stayed on. This happened to all sources. I had to manually turn the trigger back on for all. Though I was getting feedback using the computer program and I had the triggers set to ON, they were not 'ON' in the MACH IV. Might be a software bug.

I think that this is realted to the "indexing" software bug that I found...I have reported this to Algis at ADA and he is looking into it...see response to 3. below...



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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

3. Relatedly, when firing up the software program, I hit UPDATE ALL and then hit the LOAD FILE button. After I load the file, everything is loaded and looks good. But why does the SEND ALL button turn YELLOW after hitting LOAD? I never hit the SEND ALL button after loading settings but did so one time and I lost trigger commands from the software program. What is that all about?

Beacuse it is a two setp process...loading the file onlyplaces the file in the HD Suite programm..SEND ALL moves the infromation from the HD Suite to the unit...the SEND ALL button turns yellow to remind/tell you to send the infromation along...

This might be part of your problem from 2. above because you never sent the
information to the unit, hence the indexing problem...


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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

4. Also, Joel had told me the command to have the OSD turn off after a certain time period. How do you do that again??

From the front panel SETUp --> MODE --> ADA BUS and then it is clear from there [i.e. not in front of my unit]...


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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

All is loaded, levels set, but with the buzz thing I ran out of time to test the sonics tonight. But I am ready to go!!

Hopefully this will help and you will be able to get sound tonight...

Joel
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Old 09-21-2010, 04:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post

Joel, what are these 922's?

See http://www.qscaudio.com/products/net...asis_922uz.php

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Old 09-21-2010, 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by ceenhad View Post

The simple check if it is the cables is to unplug the interconnects from the ADA then plug them in one at a time and check what happens to the volume of the noise as you add more connections. If it is related to the cables then the volume increases as you add more of them.

If the volume remains constant or is still there when the ADA is disconnected then it is possible that you have some noise on the output of the QSCs. Note I don't know these devices so not trying to suggest any problems!

No buzz when SSP is off in all channels. I tried unplugging one amp at a time from the SSP, but no change in the buzz's volume.

When the Mach IV is OFF and all AMP are ON, the noise is gone.

Thanks Neil.

*Possibly related, I noted that my previous Halcro SSP would buzz a bit (different in tone than the ADA) until it would make an HDMI connection with the source. The source had to be powered on, handshake with the Halcro and then things would get quiet - no buzz. I tried that with the ADA but after handshakes, still a buzz. I did not power up my projector for these tests, but I will tonight to see if this might be HDMI/HDCP related (I doubt it, but I'll try).

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Old 09-21-2010, 05:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joelc View Post

Jeff:

I have to run to an early meeting so need to be brief [noting you can call me on my cell after 10:00 AM EST should you wish] but that said:



I do not know what type of connection you are using but I had a simialr [albeit less audible problem] and it was related to running balanced connectionc from the ADA to the QSC DSP and then to the QSC amplifiers...

I do not remember what the CI explained to me but basically he had to drop the ground on the connection to the QSC DSPs and all was resolved...the CI, who previously did professional installs, advised me that this was normal practice in the "pro world" when "daisy chaining" balanced conenctions as the +/- was being doubled...I can did up the information later tonight for you...



I need more info on this. My QSC DSPs physically connect via serial to the QSC amplifier. The DSP is pushing into the serial connector in the amplifier. However, how would that explain no sound when the SSP is OFF? What I can do tonight, is disconnect the DSP from the amp, leave it out of the chain, and connect the ADA directly to the amp and see if there is a buzz (after disconnecting all other amps). If so, I need more info on how to lift the ground.


If you look at your set up, can you see how your CI accomplished this?? Anyone?

Thanks guys!

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Old 09-21-2010, 05:54 AM
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So you have DSP-3s that attach to the back of the amp? If that's the case disconnect the wire on the green connectors that goes to the pitchfork looking symbols on the input side. You have a ground potential issue; the ground at the ssp is different than that at the dsp.

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