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post #631 of 2107 Old 10-21-2010, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

I'd recommend trying PLIIx. It is much better than EX/ES in that it avoids monoizing the back pair of speakers, which collapses the sense of space.

Not sure if it's a bug or not but Pro Logic IIx will not matrix up to 7.1 for TRUE HD on a 5.1 soundtrack. Wonder if there is another set up parameter I am missing??

Any other ADA users try PL IIx with a 5.1 TRUE HD soundtrack and get 7.1? I'm not.

ADA 'Discrete' EX/ES' seems to be the only mode to get my 5.1 TRUE HD soundtracks to 7.1.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #632 of 2107 Old 10-21-2010, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Not sure if it's a bug or not but Pro Logic IIx will not matrix up to 7.1 for TRUE HD on a 5.1 soundtrack. Wonder if there is another set up parameter I am missing??

Any other ADA users try PL IIx with a 5.1 TRUE HD soundtrack and get 7.1? I'm not.

ADA 'Discrete' EX/ES' seems to be the only mode to get my 5.1 TRUE HD soundtracks to 7.1.

Jeff:

I am just now getting home after an 18 hour day at the office and have to be out o fmy house at 6:30 AM today so i) I can not test it today/tonight but ii) will test it tomorrow night for you...sit tight...


Joel

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post #633 of 2107 Old 10-21-2010, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Not sure if it's a bug or not but Pro Logic IIx will not matrix up to 7.1 for TRUE HD on a 5.1 soundtrack. Wonder if there is another set up parameter I am missing??

Any other ADA users try PL IIx with a 5.1 TRUE HD soundtrack and get 7.1? I'm not.

ADA 'Discrete' EX/ES' seems to be the only mode to get my 5.1 TRUE HD soundtracks to 7.1.

Do you see PLIIx as an option for 5.1 PCM inputs? Or even for stereo sources?
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post #634 of 2107 Old 10-22-2010, 04:12 AM
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UPDATE:

Using Dolby Pro Logic IIX Movie Mode, this is what I get (Denon 3800 BDCI BD Player). I changed the output on each disc from Bitstream to LPCM for each of 4 different discs (All different surround codecs):

2 CH Music CD (LPCM): 7 channels
2 CH Music CD (Bitstream): 7 Channels

5.1 Dolby TRUE HD Bitstream (How to Train Your Dragon): 5 Channels
5.1 Dolby Digital LPCM (How to Train Your Dragon): 5 Channels

5.1 LPCM (No DTS or Dolby lossless codec on disc) (A Knight's Tale): 7 Channels

DTS MA 5.1 Bitstream (The Simpson's Movie): 7.1
DTS MA 5.1 LPCM (The Simpson's Movie): 5.1

(Odd results with the DTS MA track)!


Perhaps others can verify my results on other branded BD players. Or perhaps I have a set up error on my part? Or a bug of some sort?

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #635 of 2107 Old 10-22-2010, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post


UPDATE:

Using Dolby Pro Logic IIX Movie Mode, this is what I get (Denon 3800 BDCI BD Player). I changed the output on each disc from Bitstream to LPCM for each of 4 different discs (All different surround codecs):

2 CH Music CD (LPCM): 7 channels
2 CH Music CD (Bitstream): 7 Channels

5.1 Dolby TRUE HD Bitstream (How to Train Your Dragon): 5 Channels
5.1 Dolby Digital LPCM (How to Train Your Dragon): 5 Channels

5.1 LPCM (No DTS or Dolby lossless codec on disc) (A Knight's Tale): 7 Channels

DTS MA 5.1 Bitstream (The Simpson's Movie): 7.1
DTS MA 5.1 LPCM (The Simpson's Movie): 5.1

(Odd results with the DTS MA track)!


Perhaps others can verify my results on other branded BD players. Or perhaps I have a set up error on my part? Or a bug of some sort?


Jeff:

I want to make sure that I understand your previous posts so that I can test things properly*:

1. *Discrete + PL IIx Movie* results in 7.1 in all instances other than a) Dolby TrueHD bitstream b) Dolby TrueHD LPCM and c) dts MA-HD LPCM


2. Discrete + ES/EX results in 5.1 with a) Dolby TrueHD bitstream b) Dolby TrueHD LPCM....noting that you have not tested the other.


I am also curious as to whether or not you have different speaker configuration that are being used and are confusing the situation...have you checked that in all cases you are using a 7.1 speaker configuration?

I will test over the wekeend and revert back...

Thanks,


Joel


*QSC amplifiers + QSC DSP engines makes this easy to test because I see the signal level that is being processed by each channel

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post #636 of 2107 Old 10-22-2010, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joelc View Post

Jeff:

I want to make sure that I understand your previous posts so that I can test things properly*:

1. *Discrete + PL IIx Movie* results in 7.1 in all instances other than a) Dolby TrueHD bitstream b) Dolby TrueHD LPCM and c) dts MA-HD LPCM


2. Discrete + ES/EX results in 5.1 with a) Dolby TrueHD bitstream b) Dolby TrueHD LPCM....noting that you have not tested the other.


I am also curious as to whether or not you have different speaker configuration that are being used and are confusing the situation...have you checked that in all cases you are using a 7.1 speaker configuration?

I will test over the wekeend and revert back...

Thanks,


Joel


*QSC amplifiers + QSC DSP engines makes this easy to test because I see the signal level that is being processed by each channel

1. Yes
2. No. With TRUE HD Bitstream in 'Discrete EX/ES' mode, I get full 7.1 (but the rears are mono according to Roger). Ideally, would like to use PL IIX MOVIE for TRUE HD 5.1 soundtracks so as to get full 7.1 with stereo rears.

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post #637 of 2107 Old 10-22-2010, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

5.1 Dolby Digital LPCM (How to Train Your Dragon): 5 Channels

5.1 LPCM (No DTS or Dolby lossless codec on disc) (A Knight's Tale): 7 Channels


DTS MA 5.1 LPCM (The Simpson's Movie): 5.1

What I find really odd is that the ADA treats LPCM differently depending on if the disc was LPCM or not. It ought to look 100% identical to the ADA. How can it know??

I think you need to call ADA and start asking. It is clearly not working right.
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post #638 of 2107 Old 10-22-2010, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

What I find really odd is that the ADA treats LPCM differently depending on if the disc was LPCM or not. It ought to look 100% identical to the ADA. How can it know??

That is a good question. Could be my error. I was testing this at 6am with my morning coffee.However, when I tested the (Knight's Tale)LPCM soundtrack, my player was set to BITSTREAM output. Not sure how that would be handled since the soundtrack was LPCM?? Ideas? I did not change the player's HDMI output to LPCM and test when using that soundtrack. That may be the difference. I will try both BITSTREAM and LPCM with the LPCM soundtrack tomorrow and verify.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

I think you need to cal ADA and start asking. It is clearly not working right.

Thanks. A couple other owners are going to verify my results. I also have 2 other BD players. I am going to retest all tomorrow with my OPPO BDP-83.

Now, I'm a bitstreamer, so DTS MA is good but TRUE HD will not cooperate in Dolby PL IIX Movie mode.. I do get 7.1 using 'Discrete ES/EX' with TRUE HD, so even though there seems to be an issue here, it's not bothersome in the practical sense.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #639 of 2107 Old 10-24-2010, 03:09 AM
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Jeff:

I had to rebuild my laptop as a result of a nasty virus and, because I am runing WIndows 7, am having trouble getting HD Suite to load [i.e. the tricks that I used last time are not working]...net net, I will not be able to provide test results until Monday [i.e. after IT gets their hands on my laptop]...

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post #640 of 2107 Old 10-24-2010, 05:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joelc View Post

Jeff:

I had to rebuild my laptop as a result of a nasty virus and, because I am runing WIndows 7, am having trouble getting HD Suite to load [i.e. the tricks that I used last time are not working]...net net, I will not be able to provide test results until Monday [i.e. after IT gets their hands on my laptop]...

Doh!

Thats too bad.

But if you're able, pop in a Dolby True HD 5.1 Blu Ray and set it to PL IIx and see if you are unable to get 7.1? Then move to 'Discrete' mode and , in my case, I get 7.1.

This would be all the confirmation I would need.

Are you running a 7.1 set up?

Thanks!

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #641 of 2107 Old 10-24-2010, 06:14 AM
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Jeff,

Discrete+ex/es is the best mode for hd material and delivers de correlated rear channel data. PLIIx will work for stereo and Dolby digital. Other items ad you list are "engineering" processes which I guess could be extended if you really want to apply PLIIx processing to hd codecs!

Cheers

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post #642 of 2107 Old 10-24-2010, 07:01 AM
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I hear you. That is what I am doing. I looks like the way PL IIx handles TRUE HD and DTS MA is different in the ADA. With the current firmware, you get 7.1 for DTS MA but not TRUE HD. Roger had eluded to the fact that Discrete EX/ES gives mono surrounds but PL IIx maintains stereo. Shouldn't PL IIx by design play TRUE HD 5.1 take 5.1 to 7.1? Or did ADA simply choose to implement it this way?

Thanks!

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #643 of 2107 Old 10-24-2010, 08:15 AM
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"Shouldn't PL IIx by design play TRUE HD 5.1 take 5.1 to 7.1?"

It should.

Have you tried decoding in the player and passing that as LPCM instead of bitstream to see what happens? Perhaps you are running into a processing limitation decompressing bitstream and then trying to apply PLIIx on top of that.

Shawn
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post #644 of 2107 Old 10-24-2010, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

"Shouldn't PL IIx by design play TRUE HD 5.1 take 5.1 to 7.1?"

It should.

Have you tried decoding in the player and passing that as LPCM instead of bitstream to see what happens? Perhaps you are running into a processing limitation decompressing bitstream and then trying to apply PLIIx on top of that.

Shawn

Hi Shawn. Check a few posts back. I posted what I found with a dts ma, true hd & lpcm blu rays and a stereo cd using bitstream & lpcm hdmi output.

(no 7.1 with lpcm or bitstream on a 5.1 TRUE HD blu ray using PL IIx).

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #645 of 2107 Old 10-24-2010, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Doh!

Thats too bad.

No kidding... 10 hours and still counting to get this laptop fully loaded and configured...


Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

But if you're able, pop in a Dolby True HD 5.1 Blu Ray and set it to PL IIx and see if you are unable to get 7.1? Then move to 'Discrete' mode and , in my case, I get 7.1.

This would be all the confirmation I would need.

No can do as I need my laptop to run myhome theatre at present as the CI has the touchpanel for programming and the others in the house have not been loaded for the theatre...


Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Are you running a 7.1 set up?

Thanks!

Yes, a little disappointing that DD True-HD 5.1 can not give 7 channels...

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post #646 of 2107 Old 10-24-2010, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

"Shouldn't PL IIx by design play TRUE HD 5.1 take 5.1 to 7.1?"

It should.

Have you tried decoding in the player and passing that as LPCM instead of bitstream to see what happens? Perhaps you are running into a processing limitation decompressing bitstream and then trying to apply PLIIx on top of that.

thebland reports that DTS HDMA + PLIIx works, and since that is much more MIPs intensive than TrueHD + PLIIx, it cannot be that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Hi Shawn. Check a few posts back. I posted what I found with a dts ma, true hd & lpcm blu rays and a stereo cd using bitstream & lpcm hdmi output.

(no 7.1 with lpcm or bitstream on a 5.1 TRUE HD blu ray using PL IIx).

Yes, but when I asked how it would be possible for the ADA to sense a difference between PCM from a disc and PCM from a lossless decoder, you said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

That is a good question. Could be my error. I was testing this at 6am with my morning coffee.

I also have 2 other BD players. I am going to retest all tomorrow with my OPPO BDP-83.

Did you retest PCM decoding with PLIIx with these other players?

Quote:
However, when I tested the (Knight's Tale)LPCM soundtrack, my player was set to BITSTREAM output. Not sure how that would be handled since the soundtrack was LPCM?? Ideas? I did not change the player's HDMI output to LPCM and test when using that soundtrack. That may be the difference. I will try both BITSTREAM and LPCM with the LPCM soundtrack tomorrow and verify.

There can be a difference between PCM and bitstream even when playing a PCM disc in the Oppo, but I think it is confined to the special case of HDCD discs. In PCM mode the Oppo decodes the HDCD; in bitstream mode it remains as encoded on the disc. None of this would apply to lossless BDs.
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post #648 of 2107 Old 10-24-2010, 12:59 PM
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I'll remove my comments and refer this to the SW team at ADA. I'll update when I know more.

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post #649 of 2107 Old 10-24-2010, 01:21 PM
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OK

RETESTED:

Used my Oppo BDP-83 and my Denon 3800 BDCI. I'm still consistent with the results.

1. Results were identical on both players using the same discs. So, not a player issue.

2. These modes will [properly] convert 5.1 TRUE HD to 7.1: THX ULTRA II and DISCRETE EX/ES - whether bitstreamed or LPCM audio. (Dark Knight TRUE HD 5.1)

3. These modes will not convert 5.1 TRUE HD to 7.1: DISCRETE and PL IIx Movie - whether bitstreamed or LPCM audio. (Dark Knight TRUE HD 5.1)

4. Of interest are the older 5.1 LPCM soundtrack when in PL IIx Movie mode:
a. Knights Tale (5.1 LPCM). When player set to LPCM output, only get 5.1
b. Knights Tale (5.1 LPCM). When player set to BITSTREAM, get full 7.1*

*I think this must be a flagging error of some sort as the ADA always shows the ACTIVE speakers in any given surround mode and with bitstreaming the 'LPCM 5.1' soundtrack, it shows (incorrectly) 5 active speakers but actually all 7 are playing actively. However, when sending the track via LPCM, it correctly shows that only 5 channels are active.

**With all other configurations and testing the front panel active speaker LED is correct on the ADA. Now since 5.1 LPCM recordings are a thing of the past, this is more academic than anything else.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #650 of 2107 Old 10-24-2010, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ceenhad View Post

Guys,

Despite my earlier post, people already seem to be getting carried away here.

Facts:

1. Using Discrete+Ex/Es mode will produce a 7.1 result from a 5.1 "HD or SD" codec source. Note that this is a name of convenience to help those setting up units that it adds in rear channel data. It is clear that since this is working on HD codecs it is not the same EX processing from days of old!!! The result is a decorrelated set of rears rather than monophonic.

2. Using Dolby PLIIx decoding mode will produce up to a 7.1 signal with "SD" codec source material.
3. Whilst some "HD" codecs work with Dolby PLIIx mode, this mode was not really forseen for use with HD material and this particular discussion has not been raised before in the 18 months since the Suite 7.1HD came to the market!

4. There is no hardware limitation etc why this couldn't be done if people really think that using this particular decoding mode will enhance their enjoyment of HD codecs over and above the aforementioned Discrete+Ex/Es mode.

Hopefully this calms any hysteria before it begins

Hi Neil.

1. Stereo rears would be ideal
2. And DTS MA (bitstreamed).
3. That I can't argue. Can't speak for others missing it elsewhere
4. Agreed


Personally, it's not a life changer for me. I post here and I post thnigs i find with any piece of equipment I own. All and all, the ADA is rock solid and have no serious gripes at all. It is fantastic sonically!

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #651 of 2107 Old 10-24-2010, 01:49 PM
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Removing pending further feedback from ADA

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post #652 of 2107 Old 10-24-2010, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ceenhad View Post

hi jeff,

for completeness i guess it will be good if the team at ada add all data streams to pliix mode. I would be 95% certain that this is a legacy of porting over the suite7.1 and machiii firmwares which obviously did not have to deal with "hd" codecs.

As a final clarification - decorrelated rears = not the same signal simutaneously to each speaker ~ stereo surrounds = what you want!

+1

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post #653 of 2107 Old 10-24-2010, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ceenhad View Post

Discrete+ex/es is the best mode for hd material and delivers de correlated rear channel data.

If ADA has an optional decorrelator being applied to the EX process, then it is presumably switchable (to off), since it is counter to Dolby and THX requirements to do otherwise. But more on this below.

Quote:


PLIIx will work for stereo and Dolby digital. Other items ad you list are "engineering" processes which I guess could be extended if you really want to apply PLIIx processing to hd codecs!

It is a requirement of the Dolby PLIIx license that it be made available to any and all 5.1 sources.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ceenhad View Post

Facts:

1. Using Discrete+Ex/Es mode will produce a 7.1 result from a 5.1 "HD or SD" codec source. Note that this is a name of convenience to help those setting up units that it adds in rear channel data. It is clear that since this is working on HD codecs it is not the same EX processing from days of old!!! The result is a decorrelated set of rears rather than monophonic.

Then it has been changed counter to Dolby EX definitions. Whether Dolby would object or not, I cannot say, as I don't work there anymore.

Quote:


3. Whilst some "HD" codecs work with Dolby PLIIx mode, this mode was not really forseen for use with HD material and this particular discussion has not been raised before in the 18 months since the Suite 7.1HD came to the market!

Then it was an oversight by ADA, as it is a clear requirement in Dolby's PLIIx manual.

Quote:


4. There is no hardware limitation etc why this couldn't be done if people really think that using this particular decoding mode will enhance their enjoyment of HD codecs over and above the aforementioned Discrete+Ex/Es mode.

Of course it would. Real stereo is always better than decorrelated mono.

Will someone be contacting ADA to nudge them into PLIIx compliance?
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post #654 of 2107 Old 10-24-2010, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

OK

RETESTED

PL IIx Movie mode:
a. Knights Tale (5.1 LPCM). When player set to LPCM output, only get 5.1
b. Knights Tale (5.1 LPCM). When player set to BITSTREAM, get full 7.1*

This one is still perplexing, so aside from notifying ADA about making PLIIx available for bitstreams, it also needs to work in both these PCM cases.
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post #655 of 2107 Old 10-24-2010, 04:50 PM
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"1. Using Discrete+Ex/Es mode will produce a 7.1 result from a 5.1 "HD or SD" codec source..... It is clear that since this is working on HD codecs it is not the same EX processing from days of old!!!"

Why not? Plenty of EX/ES modes could work on lossless sources before. By the time the post-processing occurs the audio is LPCM no matter if it was compressed lossy or lossless.

"The result is a decorrelated set of rears rather than monophonic."

Decorrelated doesn't automatically mean stereo. THXs decorrelation process is not stereo, it is mono with some futzing with the mono to make it less obviously mono. You can't get a pan from one rear speaker to the other for example as you can with 7.1 processes that give actually stereo rears.. PLIIx and Logic 7.

Shawn

The result is a decorrelated set of rears rather than monophonic."
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post #656 of 2107 Old 10-24-2010, 04:52 PM
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"1. Using Discrete+Ex/Es mode will produce a 7.1 result from a 5.1 "HD or SD" codec source..... It is clear that since this is working on HD codecs it is not the same EX processing from days of old!!!"

Why not? Plenty of EX/ES modes could work on lossless sources before. By the time the post-processing occurs the audio is LPCM no matter if it was compressed lossy or lossless.

"The result is a decorrelated set of rears rather than monophonic."

Decorrelated doesn't automatically mean stereo. THXs decorrelation process is not stereo, it is mono with some futzing with the mono to make it less obviously mono. You can't get a pan from one rear speaker to the other for example as you can with 7.1 processes that give actually stereo rears.. PLIIx and Logic 7.

Shawn

The result is a decorrelated set of rears rather than monophonic."
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post #657 of 2107 Old 10-24-2010, 05:09 PM
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Funny how DTS MA (bitstreamed) is unaffected but TRUE HD is. I guess the piece was optimized for DTS MA. But there are quite a few 5.1 TRUE HD soundtracks.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #658 of 2107 Old 10-24-2010, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

PL IIx Movie mode:
a. Knights Tale (5.1 LPCM). When player set to LPCM output, only get 5.1
b. Knights Tale (5.1 LPCM). When player set to BITSTREAM, get full 7.1*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

This one is still perplexing, so aside from notifying ADA about making PLIIx available for bitstreams, it also needs to work in both these PCM cases.

Note also that I get 7.1 bitstreaming DTS MA 5.1 soundtracks but when I set the BD player to output LPCM for the same DTS MA 5.1 mix, I only get 5.1 in PL IIx. Not sure if there would be a relationship to the Uncompressed 5.1 mix mentioned above??

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #659 of 2107 Old 10-24-2010, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Note also that I get 7.1 bitstreaming DTS MA 5.1 soundtracks but when I set the BD player to output LPCM for the same DTS MA 5.1 mix, I only get 5.1 in PL IIx. Not sure if there would be a relationship to the Uncompressed 5.1 mix mentioned above??

It's just another example how the ADA is not applying PLIIx to PCM decoded upstream. Clearly a bug of some kind.
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post #660 of 2107 Old 10-25-2010, 01:39 AM
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And you thought your beta testing career was over !
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