SIM2 MICO50 LED Has Arrived - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 701 Old 05-19-2010, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

There have been a couple of posts made here, and in the 3k forum, could lead members to believe that the Mico uses a Delta engine. That is not the case.

I asked them point blank at Cedia and they said it wasn't, but IIRC they did seem to imply that it was the basis for their engine.

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Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

No question.

I have had them back to back. Free is/was an RS35 owner who bought a Mico and will tell you the same. A number of others have done similar comparisons with similar results.

I would disagree, so it is not a unanimous decision that it is better the JVC. I know other well regarded members who thought the same thing. When you factor in the price difference, I would definitely chose the JVC.

I still find it somewhat humorous that the Sim guys said this pj was something to get out the door and get their feet wet with LEDs. Actually that is what all the manufacturers said. The Sim guys said they would have something really nice coming this year, so I will be very interested to see what Sim and everyone else comes up with at Cedia.

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post #632 of 701 Old 05-19-2010, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post

IIRC they did seem to imply that it was the basis for their engine.

I think you are misremembering or were misinformed. The Delta forms no basis for the engine in the Mico. Its fundamentally very different and comes from an entirely different manufacturer.

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Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post

I would disagree, so it is not a unanimous decision that it is better the JVC. I know other well regarded members who thought the same thing. When you factor in the price difference, I would definitely chose the JVC.

I have yet to see anyone, who has conducted a proper comparison, state anything that is at odds to my post. Those who have compared them properly can list exactly why the RS35 is significantly inferior. I can certainly accept that some people may still prefer the image of an inferior machine, but without proper comparative viewing, any such opinion is moot anyway.

I understand anyone having budgetary considerations, but that wasn't the question. Its also not really relevant on this forum.

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post #633 of 701 Old 05-19-2010, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b curry View Post

A 128" diagonal 2.35:1 screen is 3 meters wide.

Overlooked the 2.35:1 part, but that CRT could do that on a 16:9 screen or even 4:3 screen of 3 meters wide due to its 'imager' size. Like I said I love to have seen the MICO, and its 600+ lumens output, but didn't, the 400-450 lumens units, IMO, are still lacking though.
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post #634 of 701 Old 05-19-2010, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

I think you are misremembering or were misinformed. The Delta forms no basis for the engine in the Mico. Its fundamentally very different and comes from an entirely different manufacturer.

That may be true, but I was pretty sure they said it was based on the Delta. Be that as it may, it was according to them something to get out the door and have in the sales channel.

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I have yet to see anyone who has conducted a proper comparison state anything that is at odds to my post. Those who have compared them properly can list exactly why the RS35 is significantly inferior. I can certainly accept that some people may still prefer the image of an inferior machine, but without proper comparative viewing, any such opinion is moot.

I understand anyone having budgetary considerations, but that wasn't the question. Its also not really relevant on this forum.

You made a definitive statement that the Mico is superior to the JVC. I disagree. Your entitled to your opinion, as I am of mine. I prefer high on/off cr. Others may have different priorities. According to tse, LED dlps are still around the 5k to 1 on /off mark. I hope to get up to VDC and see their LED pj and talk to tse about this more in depth.

Calling the JVC inferior is a little much. Are you basing that on your performance criteria or build quality?

As for budget, I agree, but why spend money when there may not be a benefit especially when one values specs that another pj might be superior.

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post #635 of 701 Old 05-19-2010, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post

You made a definitive statement that the Mico is superior to the JVC.

I certainly did, as have others who have compared them properly. I have yet to see anyone, who has done so, offer a different opinion.

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Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post

I disagree.

What directly comparative testing or viewing have you done, if any, in order to form your opinion?

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Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post

Calling the JVC inferior is a little much.

This is the forum where the absolute best imaging devices are to be found. If "inferior" sounds harsh, so be it. I gave complimentary reviews of the RS20 and RS35 that I paid for. They are great machines when judged against their peers, and at their price point. The fact remains that they do not occupy the top of the imaging food chain, or close to it.

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Are you basing that on your performance criteria or build quality?

On absolutely nothing other than pure image fidelity

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post #636 of 701 Old 05-19-2010, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

I certainly did, as have others who have compared them properly. I have yet to see anyone, who has done so, offer a different opinion.

I haven't seen that many people who have compared them. Three maybe four.

Quote:


What directly comparative testing or viewing have you done, if any, in order to form your opinion?

I have only seen the Sim at Cedia. Based on tse's comment regarding on/off cr, that is still not enough for me to prefer the LED to JVC.

Quote:


This is the forum where the absolute best imaging devices are to be found. If "inferior" sounds harsh, so be it. I gave complimentary reviews of the RS20 and RS35 that I paid for. They are great machines when judged against their peers, and at their price point. The fact remains that they do not occupy the top of the imaging food chain, or close to it.

[/quote]
On absolutely nothing other than pure image fidelity[/quote]
So, does a VDC 9500 CRT pj occupy the top of the food chain to you? It certainly has better on/off cr, motion resolution and build quality than Sim. If those specs are more important to a buyer then that would be a superior solution for that person. The same applies to the JVC. If one highly values on/off more than other specs that dlp does well, then that would be a better imaging device for that person.


I should note that I like 3 chip dlp. I have seen a couple of Peter's installs as well as his demo at Cedia and I have been highly impressed. I even said at Cedia that I thought his was one of the best images at the show.

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post #637 of 701 Old 05-19-2010, 02:41 PM
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I just brought home a mico 50 for a demo. Anything special I should be thinking about as to setup?

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post #638 of 701 Old 05-20-2010, 06:02 AM
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All seems very quite on the "upcoming LED projector front"....

What are folks hearing about new LED projectors ??
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post #639 of 701 Old 05-21-2010, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post

What are folks hearing about new LED projectors ??

Not much I guess. Sim2 will have a Mico 20 and a Mico 40 out later this year which are both set below the Mico 50, as well as a Mico 60 as the top machine in the Mico line. However, I was told today the Mico 60 will be nothing else than a Host version of the Mico 50 with the ability to transmit video from the host box via a wireless signal. Otherwise these machines will be identical, so no improvement in light output or on/off CR. I expected a bit more here.

The Mico 50 will get a new firmware next week, which I was told is gonna fix some issues. More tweakability for dynamic black is one of the new features. I'm very sensitive to rainbows on color wheel machines, the Mico 50 is nowhere near as bad as regular (non LED) machines, but I can still see some color spereation artifacts on the Mico 50 in darker scenes. Bright scenes are fine. From what I've been told, Sim2 modified the control of the LEDs, so hopefully the color seperation artifacts I see with the Mico 50 in darker scenes will be gone (that's what Sim2 claimed today).
That will probably also fix the issues of flipping the LED state on and off.

As most people know, when there's an all black image on screen the Mico 50 switches off the LEDs, which further reduces black levels. As soon as there's something on the screen, LEDs are switched on which raises blacklevel. There are still some issues with this, when the projectors can't decide what to do and switches forth and back between the two states. A good disc to see this is the beginning of Public Enemy, before and after the Universal logo. That's also a good disc to test for color seperation artifacts, the scene in the woods when they approach the hotel in the dark. If someone would show me only this scene on the Mico 50 it would be a deal killer for me... for an otherwise absolutely fantastic machine.


Besides that, Vivitek will have something new later this year. Not sure if Runco will, but it shouldn't be far behind.


For those considering the Mico 50, I think it's worth to have a look at the Sim2 Uno as well. That's a Lumis without the DI. Blacklevel won't be as good as the Mico 50 without the DI, but it's a brighter machine. Personally I don't need and don't want 20+ftL, that's also the reason I prefer the Mico 50 over the Lumis and Uno. If more brightness is needed, there's no other choice. But I think a Mico 50 on a 0.85 to 0.95 gain 85" to 90" wide 16:9 screen is still ok. So a 115" to 120" wide scope screen in combination with a ISCO3 is still working very well.

- Stephan
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post #640 of 701 Old 05-21-2010, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephan View Post

I'm very sensitive to rainbows on color wheel machines, the Mico 50 is nowhere near as bad as regular (non LED) machines, but I can still see some color spereation artifacts on the Mico 50 in darker scenes. Bright scenes are fine. From what I've been told, Sim2 modified the control of the LEDs, so hopefully the color seperation artifacts I see with the Mico 50 in darker scenes will be gone (that's what Sim2 claimed today).
That will probably also fix the issues of flipping the LED state on and off.

As most people know, when there's an all black image on screen the Mico 50 switches off the LEDs, which further reduces black levels. As soon as there's something on the screen, LEDs are switched on which raises blacklevel. There are still some issues with this, when the projectors can't decide what to do and switches forth and back between the two states. A good disc to see this is the beginning of Public Enemy, before and after the Universal logo. That's also a good disc to test for color seperation artifacts, the scene in the woods when they approach the hotel in the dark. If someone would show me only this scene on the Mico 50 it would be a deal killer for me... for an otherwise absolutely fantastic machine.

Thanks very much for this post. Are all in the Mico line going to be LED-driven?
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post #641 of 701 Old 05-21-2010, 12:16 PM
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Yes, Stephan--most interesting. Any idea how the Mico 20 and 40 will be 'lesser' than the 50? e.g., brightness, CR, etc.?
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post #642 of 701 Old 05-21-2010, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by drapp1952 View Post

Thanks very much for this post. Are all in the Mico line going to be LED-driven?

Yes, all projectors in the Mico line will be LED-driven. Infact, from now on every new 1-chip DLP projector from Sim2 will be LED-driven. Only the 3-chip projectors will still use regular lamps, due the the higher light output which isn't possible with LEDs yet.

- Stephan
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post #643 of 701 Old 05-21-2010, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Yes, Stephan--most interesting. Any idea how the Mico 20 and 40 will be 'lesser' than the 50? e.g., brightness, CR, etc.?

No idea, no - sorry. I also didn't ask specifically about the 20 and 40, as I had my hopes up for a better version of the 50. I honestly can't expect them to be brighter than the 50, but I could see them with a stripped down light engine, so maybe not as bright but with better on/off CR. Most LED machines are not as bright as the Mico 50, but have higher on/off CR.

The Ansi CR of this machine is excellent on the other hand. I understand why some people still go with a RS35 or something similar, simply for the higher on/off CR, but I think one should really compare these two machines side by side and then decide what's more important. Personally, I'd pick the machine that is water cooled.

Another issue on the Mico 50 remains, but that's pretty much the case for all Sim2 machines (and the Runco LED as well)... it's still a little difficult to get an excellent performing machine, some units still show some CA. Then again, it's not a $10k lens either, so it can't be as good as the best lenses out there.

- Stephan
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post #644 of 701 Old 05-21-2010, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephan View Post

Another issue on the Mico 50 remains, but that's pretty much the case for all Sim2 machines (and the Runco LED as well)... it's still a little difficult to get an excellent performing machine, some units still show some CA. Then again, it's not a $10k lens either, so it can't be as good as the best lenses out there.

Yikes, that unsettling!
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post #645 of 701 Old 05-23-2010, 11:42 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm hoping to see an LED model from SIM2 that incorporates a 2.35 chip. I love my MICO50 but it would be great if I could do scope without an anamorphic lens.
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post #646 of 701 Old 05-23-2010, 12:50 PM
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Luminus Devices doesn't have a wider led array chip, so don't hold your breath.
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post #647 of 701 Old 05-23-2010, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post

I'm hoping to see an LED model from SIM2 that incorporates a 2.35 chip. I love my MICO50 but it would be great if I could do scope without an anamorphic lens.

I had my hopes up for the 60 to be that machine, but Sim2 confirmed that's not the case and there are currently no plans to release such a machine anytime this year. They're aware there's a 2.35 chip, but it looked like there's not too much interest in such a solution.

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post #648 of 701 Old 05-26-2010, 07:39 AM
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This past weekend, I had a MICO 50 in my home for evaluation. This was a Rep unit about 6 months old and one of the first to ship.

The projector I currently have in my system is a Sony G-90.

Here’s how it went:

Equipment:
•Sencore VP403c DVI/HDMI Video Pattern Generator
•Stewart Studiotek 100" diag 130 screen
•Anthem D2v A/V Processor
•OppO BDP-83 Blu-Ray Player
•Sony BDP-CX7000ES Blu-Ray Changer
•Tivo Series 3 DVR
•Spears & Munsil Blu-Ray Test Disc

Testing Methodology:
• Setup the MICO 50 using the test patterns from the 403c.
• Use the HMDI cables connected to each output device, and adjust the image through the D2v to match the image values of the 403c directly connected to the MICO 50. Except the TIVO…that will be setup using the ATSC output from the 403c to the Antenna IN of the TIVO.
•Use a Blu-Ray Test disc to reaffirm all player adjustments.

Issues Regarding this MICO 50:
•It was apparent from the outset that this particular unit has problems.
1.) The Red LED was out of alignment by about 5 pixels. The rep and Sim2 agreed that this was a result of multiple demos and transport.
2.) A significant amount of Herringbone was noticed in the Multi-Burst pattern, bad at 1080p/60 and much worse at 1080p/24. The Sim2 people advised me there was an issue with feedback from the power supply in the first 20 units or so shipped. They plan to do a recall.


Testing Observations:
The set up using the 403c showed the most setting stayed well within the mid-range settings 0-100 of the setup menu.
Brightness-54
Contrast-47
Color-47
Tint-50

I did not do a calibration on this projector, as color appeared to be close enough at the D65 setting using a gray bar pattern and viewing a window raster from 5-100 IRE.

Signals sent through the D2v required only minor (1-2 clicks) of additional change in the D2v video setup menu.

The contrast output of the Spears & Munsil disc required an additional reduction in contrast in the D2v menu by 2 clicks from all players.

I noticed a large amount of haloing (over sharpening) around fine lines and menu text. After setting the sharpness to “Softest” and detail to “0” the halo effect remained. I did not discuss this with Sim2.

Conclusions:
First of all, I don’t get the comments that the MICO 50 is not a bright projector. With the setting noted above, in a light controlled room (about commercial theater brightness) a full white raster almost hurt the eyes and confirmed by a wide dynamic range with the best blacks I have seen.

With the liquid cooling this is a VERY quite projector that can be used very close to the viewing area without any noise distraction. Its’ heat emission was only noticeable within a foot or so of the unit.

Watching BR discs such as Avatar, the MICO 50 was very impressive. 3D like in many scenes, but the over sharpening effect noted above does affect the image and needs to be addressed. Scenes with intensive blues and yellows displayed a large amount of noise that I believe is within the source material, but magnified by the MICO 50 and may again be related to the over sharpening issue. The second chapter of “The Fifth Element”, second Blu-Ray release, showed major noise in the blue sky and pyramid area. That background noise showed up again and again in various Blu-Ray and standard DVD discs.

I love the idea of this projector, its’ green technology, the life expectancy and brightness characteristics of the LEDs, resulting in no need to replace expensive and environmentally hazardous lamps, the quite operation and low heat.

I have discussed, with my dealer, having Sim2 ship a new MICO 50, with updated firmware and all fixes to date, for a second look prior to a purchase decision. I’m waiting to hear back. If it happens, and the issues are resolved, I would seriously consider this unit.

John
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post #649 of 701 Old 05-26-2010, 08:36 AM
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Every digital projector will look like a light cannon when compared to a 9 inch CRT. I went that route myself. Our beloved CRT FPs were dim machines and most of us got amd were quite happy with 6 or so ft lamberts. Almost any digital will put out 20 to 40 foot lamberts on a 100 inch 1.78 1.3 gain. The current gen of LED projectors will be plenty bright enough for your screen and gain though some out there want really really bright. Give me 60 ft lamberts or give me death types That said, LEDs are dimmer than bulb technologies and going say above 120 inch with a 1.3 gain may cause a lot of too dim comments from today`s kids who want really bright.

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post #650 of 701 Old 05-26-2010, 09:26 AM
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John regarding the ringing there are several sharpness filters that will address this
( some in another page )separate from just the Sharpest/softest setting that have been missed. The haring bone is also due to a setting not properly setup. I know this because I had the same experience until I learned the machine and found it was human error. To add credibility Daren was with me when we saw this and found the setting. This is where you cannot just tale a projector out of box and expect to know it.
Other then typical brightness contrast measurement one must live with a projector for months before being able to comment on it. Greg Rogers could write a review in one week but lives with the projector for months before releasing any notes.
Sounds like this projector has been through the ringer but regarding the ringing there are some comments showing not enough time has been spent to learn the projector. While I am competent I can show you a killer image produced from this projector superior to its LED competition and many lamp driven projectors the product must fit your needs. When set up properly the Mico produces one fine image confirmed by several owners in this very forum without any of the issues you mentioned
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post #651 of 701 Old 05-26-2010, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

John regarding the ringing there are several sharpness filters that will address this
( some in another page )separate from just the Sharpest/softest setting that have been missed. The haring bone is also due to a setting not properly setup. I know this because I had the same experience until I learned the machine and found it was human error. To add credibility Daren was with me when we saw this and found the setting. This is where you cannot just tale a projector out of box and expect to know it.
Other then typical brightness contrast measurement one must live with a projector for months before being able to comment on it. Greg Rogers could write a review in one week but lives with the projector for months before releasing any notes.
Sounds like this projector has been through the ringer but regarding the ringing there are some comments showing not enough time has been spent to learn the projector. While I am competent I can show you a killer image produced from this projector superior to its LED competition and many lamp driven projectors the product must fit your needs. When set up properly the Mico produces one fine image confirmed by several owners in this very forum without any of the issues you mentioned

Thanks for your input.

I've been doing this for a long time and there are no settings that are in the standard setup menus that I did not address to try and correct the ringing problem. Also, if the herringbone issue is correctable, why didn't the tech people at Sim2 just tell me that instead of pointing to a power supply feedback issue?

What I posted was my impressions after four days of use and should be taken as such. If I actually purchase one I will certainly give it enough time to settle in before coming to any conclusions.

John
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post #652 of 701 Old 05-26-2010, 10:06 AM
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John my comments are in no way meant to discredit your findings. Sounds like some of what you saw was due to a very used machine.

My few observations and suggestions are with hope to add value.

There are 3 sharpness filters not all on the same page. Ringing is one of my pet peeves and this projector passes my concerns

Regarding the haring bone you are scaling and not in pass mode.

If you decide to take another shot at the Mico and get one in your possession please PM me for my number. It would be fun to work through some short cuts with you. I know we can fix a few things with just a few clicks of the remote

Enjoy!
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post #653 of 701 Old 05-26-2010, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

John my comments are in no way meant to discredit your findings. Sounds like some of what you saw was due to a very used machine.

My few observations and suggestions are with hope to add value.

There are 3 sharpness filters not all on the same page. Ringing is one of my pet peeves and this projector passes my concerns

Regarding the haring bone you are scaling and not in pass mode.

If you decide to take another shot at the Mico and get one in your possession please PM me for my number. It would be fun to work through some short cuts with you. I know we can fix a few things with just a few clicks of the remote

Enjoy!

The scaling was set to Pixel to Pixel.

Thanks for the offer. I may just do that.

John
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post #654 of 701 Old 05-26-2010, 02:23 PM
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Mark you know this, the newer 9" CRTs performed much better than 6fL, those were/are numbers for HT specific units and primarily 7" units, those are indeed dim, even on a gain 13 Vutec parabolic screen. The later commercial grade units like many people here still refer to perform mcuh better and should be in that 20-40 fL range. 21 fL on an 3 meter wide screen can be done with an Barco 808. Of course I am in the 2000 nits or bust crowd;-).
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post #655 of 701 Old 05-26-2010, 04:30 PM
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My last CRT was a 9500 Ultra with new tubes and the then latest MP mods. 110 inch D 1.78 1.3 gain. No way, and I mean no wa,y any 9 inch CRT is going to put out anywhere near your claim. What drugs are you taking? I have been involved with blends for large screens say 10 ft wide or so and double and tripple Sony 9 inch stacks and no way anywhere near those numbers. You my friend are sadly mistaken. Start a thread in the CRT forum and I will go there. Lets see who can back you up. try cliffy, william K, Ken W. Noone is going to be able to validate those claims.

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post #656 of 701 Old 06-01-2010, 10:04 PM
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netroamer,
I read your post last week and wanted to wait to comment. I was supposed to drop into VDC on my way back to Atlanta on Friday, but of course there was an accident. I am going to try to stop in on my way back down to Third World Miami in a couple of weeks.

Anyway, the reason for my post is I was hoping to see VDC's LED pj. Scott (tse) has spoken highly of LED tech and is excited about their pj. One of the things they have come up with is motion blur. I haven't been able to ask Scott exactly what it does yet, but from what I have heard from some others that have seen it is that it smooths out the motion resolution problem inherent with digital pjs. Since you have a CRT, I wasn't sure if this was something important to you or not. Motion resolution and on/off cr are the two specs that CRT still has over digital, but it looks like that gap is narrowing fast.

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post #657 of 701 Old 06-02-2010, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post

netroamer,
I read your post last week and wanted to wait to comment. I was supposed to drop into VDC on my way back to Atlanta on Friday, but of course there was an accident. I am going to try to stop in on my way back down to Third World Miami in a couple of weeks.

Anyway, the reason for my post is I was hoping to see VDC's LED pj. Scott (tse) has spoken highly of LED tech and is excited about their pj. One of the things they have come up with is motion blur. I haven't been able to ask Scott exactly what it does yet, but from what I have heard from some others that have seen it is that it smooths out the motion resolution problem inherent with digital pjs. Since you have a CRT, I wasn't sure if this was something important to you or not. Motion resolution and on/off cr are the two specs that CRT still has over digital, but it looks like that gap is narrowing fast.

It's interesting that you raise this issue. I assume any motion blur tech is based on an increased refresh rate like 120hz or 240hz. When I noticed that the MICO 50 had no user control over motion control I queried the Sim2 rep about that and received a non-answer answer about the frequency of led glass being the reason for the increased refresh rate of flat panels. I'm not that familiar with the subject so I would be interested in any led projector manufacturer that has a solution to the issue. Is VDC going to enter the consumer market with this technology?

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post #658 of 701 Old 06-02-2010, 09:26 AM
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Who in this section cares about 'consumer' market or not, they are priced roughly the same as the other Delta Engine units, so they come in a nice black sheetmetal box, like many of the units discussed in this section.
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post #659 of 701 Old 06-02-2010, 09:51 AM
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Who in this section cares about 'consumer' market or not, they are priced roughly the same as the other Delta Engine units, so they come in a nice black sheetmetal box, like many of the units discussed in this section.

MY, my, aren't we a bit touchy . After reviewing the manufacturers web site, I simply concluded that they may not offer single unit sales to individuals as they seem geared to military and commercial sales.

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post #660 of 701 Old 06-02-2010, 12:55 PM
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Well, any unit counts. They gear towards the simulation market, but I'm sure that if you pm tse, you'll get the contact details for a sales rep;-). They still sell CRTs direct, so why not complete projectors. Steve Bruzonsky opened up a thread some months ago on this unit including a list/guide price. The vibration tolerant version didn't seem to be ready, yet at that time, but unless you're looking to outfit a full motion simulator;-).

I meant that most of the units discussed here are considered to be commercial grade/professional use projectors, otherwise the bulk of the projectors discussed here would off-topic, Barco, Christie, DPI, JVC, NEC, Sony (4K).
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