SIM2 MICO50 LED Has Arrived - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 701 Old 12-18-2009, 10:49 AM
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From a 10' wide scope to a 14' wide doubles the viewing sq footage.. (~42 sq ft to 82 sq ft)!. So an 8' screen is very, very small requiring little light output to light up.
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post #182 of 701 Old 12-18-2009, 11:02 AM
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No I did not provide any number since I was the guest.

Hopefully in the near future I can have the DPI rep give some accurate numbers. Yep both rigs SIM2 and DELTA engine are 800 lumens at 100,000:1 CR I think...

Keep in mind I was attending a product road show and had no control of source, media or testing.

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post #183 of 701 Old 12-18-2009, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeycalda View Post

It's not the size of your screen that matters it's the quality of the image but I get your point

It's the size of the screen AND the quality of the image!!!

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post #184 of 701 Old 12-18-2009, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post

Depends on the Technology. Imagine looking at a CRT that typically outputs 150 to 200 Lumens compared to one that produces 650 lumens. An LED projector acts more like a CRT than it does a UHP-driven digital projector that has some amount of light on at all times. So 600 lumens may or may not be 600 lumens depending on whether you are imagining the 600 lumens to be the 600 lumens of a conventional lamp-driven projector or the 600 lumens of a CRT or LED projector. For a more in-depth discussion of this, search out discussions re: Helmhotz-Kohlrausch or H-K effect.

HK effect doesn't say this, even though companies are trying to spin it that way .

HK effect says that some of the picture saturation, results in increased perceived brightness increase. To the extend you calibrate two displays to equal amount of saturation, HK effect therefore applies equally to both and you get no gain in this regard.

Of course, LED backlight can oversaturate the primaries and hence, trigger HK effect if you let it go past what the other displays can do. But in that case, you are no longer looking at accurate pictures. Even if you did not care, I have found little evidence that anything close to 20% touted by people can occur. The effect is likely in the 10% range.

All this said, it is possible that our current displays cannot reproduce all the colors they are supposed to in all situations and LEDs can. In that sense, there may be some minimal amount of HK effect in play here.

And to be clear, there is nothing about the light source that determines whether HK effect is there or not. You can oversaturate your colors on your CRT set and get the HK brightness benefit just the same. It is the ability of LEDs to go past calibration point that makes people tout it more here but there is no direct connection that is triggered because the source is LED versus something else.

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post #185 of 701 Old 12-18-2009, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Why don't they convene a conference to develop a new REC. They could call it 710 and allow it to express the additional color reach of LED.
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post #186 of 701 Old 12-18-2009, 05:04 PM
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Of course, they could do that. But then all the current displays would show the wrong images. You would need a new source material to go with that spec and I am afraid, that is just not going to be in the cards anytime soon.

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post #187 of 701 Old 12-18-2009, 05:46 PM
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Well there has been such a spec for over half a century, it's called NTSC;-).

Algorithmes to remap to a wider gamut exist and the folks that come up with these told us they work years ago.

It turns out that screenmakers do not care about proper remapping.
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post #188 of 701 Old 12-19-2009, 10:05 AM - Thread Starter
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So is there any correlation between contrast and the "impression" of brightness? Why does an LED projecter that has infinite (or virtually infinite) contrast "seem" to have equal or greater brightness than a conventional lamp-driven projector that has...say 4000:1 (native), even though the one with 4K:1 contrast may have a higher brigtness measurement? Is it only about color saturation?
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post #189 of 701 Old 12-19-2009, 10:55 AM
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I think Intrascene contrast certainly has an effect on "perceived brightness". This projector certainly does give the impression of greater brightness than the numbers suggest.

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post #190 of 701 Old 12-19-2009, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Free View Post

Just have to say... this thing is amazing. More to come later.

How does the dark scene contrast compare to the RS35 on scenes from say Underworld and Dark City?
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post #191 of 701 Old 12-19-2009, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post

So is there any correlation between contrast and the "impression" of brightness? Why does an LED projecter that has infinite (or virtually infinite) contrast "seem" to have equal or greater brightness than a conventional lamp-driven projector that has...say 4000:1 (native), even though the one with 4K:1 contrast may have a higher brigtness measurement? Is it only about color saturation?

Just a point of clarification. Neither the MICO50, nor any current LED projector, has infinite native on/off contrast. Native on/off is likely under 15,000:1, Ansi under 1000:1, the usual high-end DLP specs. Just watch the credits roll at the end of the movie and you will see the black around the credits isn't completely black. If a projector is capable of infinite native on/off there will be close to no light projected around those white credits (ansi-related halos are a factor here as well).
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post #192 of 701 Old 12-19-2009, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

How does the dark scene contrast compare to the RS35 on scenes from say Underworld and Dark City?

The RS35 and Lumis have been compared, in a low APL situation by a couple of people. The RS35 has a lower black floor that the Mico, the Lumis is lower than both.

The Low APL colour detail that is extracted by the Mico is superior to the RS35. The Lumis shows more than both. The Micos overall low APL performance is very good, but bested by the Lumis. In ascending order, the overall low APL performance is RS35, Mico and Lumis. The first 2 could be reversed, depending on ones particular bias for absolute black or color detail.

The Mico has an ability to display subtle colours, very close to black, that lamp based machines seem to miss. Im led to believe this is due to the linearity of the LEDs light spectrum. The colours have a great solidity, and stability, to them that is unusual for anything other than 3 chip DLP.

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post #193 of 701 Old 12-19-2009, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

How does the dark scene contrast compare to the RS35 on scenes from say Underworld and Dark City?

I spent some time yesterday, viewing both of those titles, and I would say that, in my opinion, the Mico 50 dark scene contrast exceeds the RS35, and is at least as good as the Lumis.

There is a great scene in Dark City, "Shell Beach" where you go from a very dark scene, to a very bright scene, and both the dark, and the bright scene are about as stunning as I have ever seen them on any projector. Also, coming out of that dark scene, as the door opens, and the dock stretches out in front of you, the sense of depth of the bright scene is truly spectacular.

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post #194 of 701 Old 12-19-2009, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Sisyphus View Post

Just a point of clarification. Neither the MICO50, nor any current LED projector, has infinite native on/off contrast. Native on/off is likely under 15,000:1, Ansi under 1000:1, the usual high-end DLP specs. Just watch the credits roll at the end of the movie and you will see the black around the credits isn't completely black. If a projector is capable of infinite native on/off there will be close to no light projected around those white credits (ansi-related halos are a factor here as well).

Syphilis....Im afraid you are mistaken there. The performance of a machine during a credit sequence does not prove that it does not have infinite on/off. The only determinant of a standard metric is for it to be measured in the standard way, the same as all other machines.

On/Off is a very specific, and extreme test condition. Any attempt to extrapolate from that is flawed. When the Mico displays a black test screen, it was not possible to obtain a black reading. By definition, that is infinite On/Off CR. That has been corroborated by others.

I understand where you are coming from, and think that we may need to re-evaluate the way we assess CR. Having said that, I dont think its worth the effort, as newer machines will push the intra scene contrast through the roof in the near future anyway.

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post #195 of 701 Old 12-19-2009, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Free View Post

I spent some time yesterday, viewing both of those titles, and I would say that, in my opinion, the Mico 50 dark scene contrast exceeds the RS35, and is at least as good as the Lumis...

Wow, that is high praise. Looks like my next pj purchase decision is back to square 1.
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Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

...The RS35 has a lower black floor that the Mico, the Lumis is lower than both...
In ascending order, the overall low APL performance is RS35, Mico and Lumis...

Thanks for the feedback CM. Looking forward to your detailed review on this promising machine.
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post #196 of 701 Old 12-19-2009, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

On/Off is a very specific, and extreme test condition. Any attempt to extrapolate from that is flawed. When the Mico displays a black test screen, it was not possible to obtain a black reading. By definition, that is infinite On/Off CR. That has been corroborated by others.

I understand where you are coming from, and think that we may need to re-evaluate the way we assess CR. Having said that, I dont think its worth the effort, as newer machines will push the intra scene contrast through the roof in the near future anyway.

It sounds like the MICO50 has a dynamic mode which has it turn the LEDs off for blackouts and that this mode cannot be disabled? Is that right?

I view native on/off CR as the on/off CR that can be done by the projector if considering the white it can do and then the black it could do if it had a white pixel (or a small number of white pixels) at the same time and didn't dim the white area down in order to reduce the black level, and not counting the washout effect from the white pixel(s). For instance, if the Sony VW85 was delivered with no ability to disable the dynamic iris I wouldn't think it had higher native on/off CR, just that they had made it difficult to determine what that native on/off CR was.

Local dimming like many flat panels have definitely complicates the above, but since we aren't there with projectors yet I'm not going to worry too much about how to characterize that if a manufacturer doesn't allow the user to disable the local dimming feature.

I wonder what kind of CR the MICO50 could do with a few pixels of white in one corner and all the rest black. With the ANSI CR that has been reported for this projector the washout effect should be minimal in that test compared to the overall CR in that kind of image. I think the Vivitek/Runco LED would probably do between 2k:1 and 3k:1 in this test (the same as the on/off CR DynamicBlack disabled).

With the MICO50 some results from Jason imply that this projector might do over 6k:1 in this test, but that isn't clear to me since he was using a 10% pattern for the brightest and that would allow dimming the LEDs partway without dimming that window (just adjusting gamma to compensate).

Do you have any idea what the MICO50 could do for the small number of white pixels on black (or whatever it takes to disable this dynamic blackout feature)? If it was over 6k:1 and they got the kind of lumens they get I would be impressed.

Mark Petersen posted some test patterns a while back that could be used for something like this, but I believe the smaller white parts were closer to the center of the image.

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post #197 of 701 Old 12-19-2009, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

The Mico has an ability to display subtle colours, very close to black, that lamp based machines seem to miss. Im led to believe this is due to the linearity of the LEDs light spectrum. The colours have a great solidity, and stability, to them that is unusual for anything other than 3 chip DLP.

I've wondered if the LEDs are being used to reduce dithering. I asked somebody who got to try a Vivitek unit to look at a test pattern with just black and a little above black to see how the dithering in the just above black stuff looked to them from up by the screen. While they didn't have a current lamp based single chip DLP projector there they had one not long ago and said that the dithering on the just above black stuff looked to them pretty much like they remembered from the lamp based projector. Basically like a bunch of ants running around.

Since the MICO50 is a different design I wonder what it would show in that test.

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post #198 of 701 Old 12-19-2009, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

Syphilis....Im afraid you are mistaken there. The performance of a machine during a credit sequence does not prove that it does not have infinite on/off. The only determinant of a standard metric is for it to be measured in the standard way, the same as all other machines.

On/Off is a very specific, and extreme test condition. Any attempt to extrapolate from that is flawed. When the Mico displays a black test screen, it was not possible to obtain a black reading. By definition, that is infinite On/Off CR. That has been corroborated by others.

I understand where you are coming from, and think that we may need to re-evaluate the way we assess CR. Having said that, I dont think its worth the effort, as newer machines will push the intra scene contrast through the roof in the near future anyway.

You overlooked a key word: Native. Mark Peterson has covered this in depth. At least within AVS over the last couple years the terminology for contrast is this:

Native on/off contrast: includes on/off, but, also is the ceiling for maximum simultaneous/intra-scene contrast. Ignoring the effect of Ansi for a moment, a CRT projector with a native on/off of 500,000:1 should be capable of close to this value when there is a small amount of light on the screen and a lot of black...for example a star field.

Dynamic on/off contrast: Current LED projectors. This also includes on/off, however, simultaneous/intra-scene contrast benefits very little from dynamic contrast. Intra-scene contrast values should be close to the Native on/off of the projector. Any improvement in intra-scene contrast is usually the result of a variable iris opening or closing (decreasing light scatter in dark scenes and opening up for brighter scenes) as well as dynamic gamma changing with the scene APL in real time.

ANSI contrast: everyone know this...worst case scenario of simultaneous/intra-scene contrast.

Simultaneous/intra-scene contrast: this value depends entirely on image content. Lots of dark/bright content will yield a value close to the ansi contrast of the projector. Lots of dark but little bright content will yield a value (ideally) close to the native on/off.


Put up a star field or a mouse cursor against a black background and I'm guessing you can see there is still light being projected in the black background, just as there is with a JVC RS35.

So, just guessing here based on the performance of other Sim units:

Mico50
Ansi: ~1000:1
native on/off: ~15,000:1
simultaneous/intrascene: variable, could be as low as ansi or as high as native on/off.
dynamic on/off: Infinite
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post #199 of 701 Old 12-19-2009, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

I've wondered if the LEDs are being used to reduce dithering. I asked somebody who got to try a Vivitek unit to look at a test pattern with just black and a little above black to see how the dithering in the just above black stuff looked to them from up by the screen. While they didn't have a current lamp based single chip DLP projector there they had one not long ago and said that the dithering on the just above black stuff looked to them pretty much like they remembered from the lamp based projector. Basically like a bunch of ants running around.

Since the MICO50 is a different design I wonder what it would show in that test.

--Darin

Darin, I can not see any dithering with this projector. I don't know why, but a grey bar just above black looks completely clean to me.

Phil
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post #200 of 701 Old 12-19-2009, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sisyphus View Post

ANSI contrast: everyone know this...worst case scenario of simultaneous/intra-scene contrast.

I know I'm being anal, but while the ANSI CR patterns are fairly extreme, they aren't the most extreme. Worst case for simultaneous/intra-scene CR would be more like a single pixel of black and the rest white. A small black object with a very bright image could have a brighter black than the black boxes in the ANSI CR pattern. An 8x8 checkerboard would likely have less simultanoue/intra-scene CR too, going down to a single pixel checkerboard. Mark Peterson was getting about 15:1 with a single pixel white and black lines on a Samsung A900B and that is very high for that pattern.
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Originally Posted by Sisyphus View Post

native on/off: ~15,000:1

Likely a fair amount lower. Jason measured a CR between white and the black from a 10% video window on black pattern of under 7k:1, so I would expect that or lower. I don't know if the MICO50 does partial dimming for that pattern like a projector like the VW85 would (thus giving a CR like Jason measured of much higher than its native on/off CR if the DI was enabled).

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post #201 of 701 Old 12-19-2009, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Free View Post

Darin, I can not see any dithering with this projector. I don't know why, but a grey bar just above black looks completely clean to me.

Thanks Phil. That is good news. Just so I make sure I'm clear though, was this looking up by the screen and with a pattern with only dark stuff?

If it is a dark scene and the LEDs were dimmed to lower levels they could give the mirrors on the DMD longer to create those subtle levels just above black. Or the LEDs could be turned on and off very fast to help create those levels. Either way would seem to do the trick. This is a little bit like when colorwheels had 7 segments (one dark green one) except that the intensity and duration of the dark time can be controlled for the specific image by adjusting the LEDs.

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post #202 of 701 Old 12-19-2009, 02:33 PM
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ANSI and Full Field are strictly defined. I certainly see the merit of the notion of native CR, but the definitions being used offer too much latitude to be a truly valuable metric....how many pixels? where positioned? proximity rules? distance to the point at which we measure, effects of uniformity on outcomes etc etc.

I think all of it will be consigned to history within 2 years anyway. I certainly hope so.

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post #203 of 701 Old 12-19-2009, 02:33 PM
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This was with a pluge pattern and 10% grey window on the screen, and I was looking at the pluge bar that I adjust to be just above black. If there is something in particular you want me to look at, I can take a look, but won't get to it until tomorrow.

....and yes, I put my nose right up against the screen but still could not see any dithering.

Phil
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post #204 of 701 Old 12-19-2009, 05:32 PM
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Darin,
I was talking to a mutual acquaintance who mentioned that the only way for the LEDs to do infinite would be to turn them off. I think he mentioned ANSI as a better measure, but it was a quick conversation so I am not positive. He also mentioned that the Vivitek sourced pjs are doing around 400 lumens. He said you could have more light output, but there would be tradeoffs.

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post #205 of 701 Old 12-19-2009, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk View Post

Well there has been such a spec for over half a century, it's called NTSC;-).

I remember that one 'Never the same colour twice'

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post #206 of 701 Old 12-19-2009, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by broke_ht_nut View Post

I remember that one 'Never the same colour twice'

That would be "NSCT" . The correct saying is "Never Twice the Same Color."

PAL guys also take a hit of course with "Picture Always Lousy."

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post #207 of 701 Old 12-19-2009, 08:51 PM
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"If a projector is capable of infinite native on/off there will be close to no light projected around those white credits (ansi-related halos are a factor here as well)."

No; that describes what very high intrascene CR would give.

"ANSI and Full Field are strictly defined. I certainly see the merit of the notion of native CR, but the definitions being used offer too much latitude to be a truly valuable metric....how many pixels? where positioned? proximity rules? distance to the point at which we measure, effects of uniformity on outcomes etc etc."

Rather than get mired in all that, how about say whatever it takes for there to be no brightness compression, i.e., that white pixel is as bright as full field white.

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post #208 of 701 Old 12-19-2009, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

ANSI and Full Field are strictly defined. I certainly see the merit of the notion of native CR, but the definitions being used offer too much latitude to be a truly valuable metric....how many pixels? where positioned? proximity rules? distance to the point at which we measure, effects of uniformity on outcomes etc etc.

None of that really matters IMO as it was just used as an example of how to try to work around a projector manufacturer not giving the user the capability to turn the dynamic system off and I mentioned subtracting out the washout effect. It would be preferable to just turn the dynamic system off, whether it be lamp based, iris based, or LED based as what I mentioned was more of a way to estimate what it would be if the dynamic system could be disabled. We know the dynamic system can be turned off one way or another, but just might have to be done with something like a change to the firmware/software instead of a user control. I think Noah's example basically covers it. In the case of an LED projector like the MICO50 I would say the native CR would what would be achieved if the LEDs are driven the same as for a full white image and no iris position is changed (although I doubt it has an iris that moves with picture level). But it sounds like there is no control to disable the dynamic LED dimming on blackouts. I find that somewhat surprising (especially if DynamicBlack can be disabled), but am interested in how well it works with different material (including some material that might be difficult for that kind of system).
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Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

I think all of it will be consigned to history within 2 years anyway. I certainly hope so.

It might be at some price level, but I doubt it will be at all the price levels that matter to people here and on the >$3k forum. I would like to see it start somewhere though. Sounds like a Zeiss planetarium projector might be able to make this pretty much moot now, but doesn't look ready for home theater (even if just because of the price).

--Darin

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post #209 of 701 Old 12-19-2009, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Free View Post

This was with a pluge pattern and 10% grey window on the screen, and I was looking at the pluge bar that I adjust to be just above black. If there is something in particular you want me to look at, I can take a look, but won't get to it until tomorrow.

Thanks Phil. If you have time and the movie I would be curious what happens if DynamicBlack is disabled (if you can do that) and you play the chapter called The Abyss when the fish go down into the dark. Does the projector transition smoothly to the blackout, or does it start to dim and then all of a sudden jump to no light? I think Master and Commander has a similar sequence where a guy jumps into the water at night and then fades into black as he sinks.

I have a Benq W6000 here that can be set to blackout for quite a while (I only tested for about 10 seconds though) with the dynamic iris settings in the service menu and I rented Finding Nemo on DVD tonight so that I could try it with that projector. This W6000 only has about 1000:1 native on/off CR (meaning on/off CR with the dynamic iris disabled) and there are quite a few scenes where setting it to blackout creates visible problems. I think it is too much of a jump for a full screen dynamic system. It works well with the beginning of Cars where the blackouts are from bright images to blackouts, but there are other cases where things look bad when the W6000 is setup to pretty much blackout on all video black.

Also, I doubt you have this one because not many people do, but the first 8 minutes or so of Eden Log on Blu-ray is interesting for looking at transitions between black with a little bit of light and blackouts or near blackouts. I think there are some issues with the way it is encoded (like blackouts encoded just above video level 16 and the image getting brighter right before some picture detail is going to appear), but still an interesting one.

--Darin

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post #210 of 701 Old 12-20-2009, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"If a projector is capable of infinite native on/off there will be close to no light projected around those white credits (ansi-related halos are a factor here as well)."

No; that describes what very high intrascene CR would give.

I never said credits or a space field or whatever was an example of on/off. What I said above is correct. The one factor that will effect this is a projector with poor ansi contrast. The post below elaborates on this.

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Originally Posted by Sisyphus View Post


Native on/off contrast: includes on/off, but, also is the ceiling for maximum simultaneous/intra-scene contrast. Ignoring the effect of Ansi for a moment, a CRT projector with a native on/off of 500,000:1 should be capable of close to this value when there is a small amount of light on the screen and a lot of black...for example a star field.

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