SIM2 MICO50 LED Has Arrived - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 701 Old 12-03-2009, 05:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Today I just took delivery of a brand new MICO50 that I've had on order for quite a while. Unfortunately I won't be able to put it through its paces until tomorrow as I have to attend a town meeting tonight. Word has it that the production units are even better than what was shown at CEDIA, so I can't wait to see how it compares to the C3X 1080 I had briefly and which now belongs to another. I'll report back over the weekend.
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post #2 of 701 Old 12-03-2009, 06:06 PM
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I was just reading a article on this projector! Can't wait to read your review. Post pictures

I hope some local dealers with have the projector on demo real soon. I really want to see it in action.

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post #3 of 701 Old 12-03-2009, 07:13 PM
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COOL!!!

http://www.cepro.com/article/sim2_sh...d_projector/K3

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post #4 of 701 Old 12-03-2009, 08:18 PM
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SIM2 MICO50 LED Has Arrived

Congrats!!

Ours arrived as well. It is installed and up and running.
LED is the future
This machine is very bright. Not sure who said these were dim.
I have the T2 lens which is long throw and goes out to 3. something.
This projector does not use an iris but does local dimming with the LEDs.
It also does full black turning off the LEDs on all black frames. It is fast enough to apply the black out on a frame by frame basis. It really shuts down the pupil. CRT gurus watch out.
The local dimming is not as aggressive as using an iris, I do not see any artifacts.
No rainbows and this displays a very solid & thick image.
Instant on and off, no cool down time. Almost dead silent.
I want to measure the brightness but cannot do so until first of the week. Pictures coming.
Anyone in our area or traveling through upstate NY who would like to spend some time with this drop us a call.

Im sold on LED it has a lot of opportunity on many platforms.
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post #5 of 701 Old 12-03-2009, 09:02 PM
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Can't wait to read your review! SJ
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post #6 of 701 Old 12-03-2009, 09:34 PM
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Alan: This projector does look really interesting, and suggests a bright future (pun intended) for LEDs in general, but I have to question your use of the term "local dimming". This term has only been used with respect to flat panel LCD TV's, where it means multiple (ideally, many) discrete LEDs that provide back illumination for the LCD panel, and whose brightness can be individually varied based on the the local brightness of the scene. The Lumis projector uses a SINGLE Phlatlight LED for each of the three primary colors, each of which is a monolithic 16 x 9 aspect ration high power LED, with NO capability for intensity variation across the device. The SIM2 MICO50 press release makes no mention of local dimming, and the Phlatlight PT-120 data sheet even boasts of "uniform surface emission" over its 12 square mm emitting area. Could you be thinking of a different but very real advantage of LEDs, in which the light source intensity can be dropped everywhere at very high speed (impossible with lamp technology) when the entire scene is dark? That effect is like that of a dynamic iris, but essentially instantaneous (and silent), which avoids many of the disadvantages of dynamic irises. The problem with star fields (the overall scene is dark, so the iris / LED dims, reducing the star brightnesses) remains, however

http://www.sim2usa.com/home/files/do...CO50_dec09.pdf


http://www.luminus.com/stuff/content...t120_rev06.pdf


Still, the SIM2 MICO50 is an exciting development in projector technology, and we look forward to your review! Oh, and we're lovin' the RS15!

Kevin
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post #7 of 701 Old 12-03-2009, 10:00 PM
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"This machine is very bright."

Roughly how many L does it look like? Funny phrasing to allow for the claim that LED's look brighter for the same L because of higher saturation; either that or I'm really Scandinavian.

Noah
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post #8 of 701 Old 12-03-2009, 10:13 PM
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I look forward to a review on this machine too. I liked what I saw regarding the LED projectors at CEDIA. Pretty exciting if you ask me !!

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post #9 of 701 Old 12-03-2009, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

This projector does not use an iris but does local dimming with the LEDs.

The local dimming is not as aggressive as using an iris, I do not see any artifacts.

I thought the term local dimming was used in reference to LED backlighted LCD screens to improve the contrast by locally dimming dark areas of the picture while leaving the brighter areas fully illuminated. In this PJ surely the entire light source is being dimmed for the entire screen surface. What's local in this context?

[ETA: Sorry Kevin, posted before getting to yours.]

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No rainbows and this displays a very solid & thick image.

No rainbows? Not even occasionally on B&W images? Amazing.

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Im sold on LED it has a lot of opportunity on many platforms.

I'm with you 100% there. Now if they'd only make a drop in LED replacement for my RS10!

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post #10 of 701 Old 12-04-2009, 02:45 AM
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Alan, I am really looking forward to hearing more of your impressions on this projector. Pictures would also be appreciated. Is it too much to ask for a shootout with the Lumis?
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post #11 of 701 Old 12-04-2009, 03:39 AM
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How can any projector that does color sequentially not produce a rainbow effect of some type or another?
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post #12 of 701 Old 12-04-2009, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post

How can any projector that does color sequentially not produce a rainbow effect of some type or another?

Well, technically it must but if fast enough, one could never see it.

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post #13 of 701 Old 12-04-2009, 06:40 AM
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I am wondering how the 100,000:1 spec translates into real world viewing? Since the LED's can shut off completely, that would make achieving that measurement when displaying a full black field easy, but I would like to know how the black level in low light material compares to something like a Lumis, or RS35?

I would also love to hear what the ANSI CR measurement is on this, especially since it is new technology, and we really have no benchmark yet.

Phil
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post #14 of 701 Old 12-04-2009, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

Congrats!!

Ours arrived as well. It is installed and up and running.
LED is the future
This machine is very bright. Not sure who said these were dim.
I have the T2 lens which is long throw and goes out to 3. something.
This projector does not use an iris but does local dimming with the LEDs.
It also does full black turning off the LEDs on all black frames. It is fast enough to apply the black out on a frame by frame basis. It really shuts down the pupil. CRT gurus watch out.
The local dimming is not as aggressive as using an iris, I do not see any artifacts.
No rainbows and this displays a very solid & thick image.
Instant on and off, no cool down time. Almost dead silent.
I want to measure the brightness but cannot do so until first of the week. Pictures coming.
Anyone in our area or traveling through upstate NY who would like to spend some time with this drop us a call.

Im sold on LED it has a lot of opportunity on many platforms.



Im really excited for the PJ! Can't wait to read some reviews from you and Jason. I am suppose to fly out to Rhode Island in the next few months I might have to fly out to NY and spend sometime at your guys store.

I would love to know how the MICO50 compares to the the Lumis and the RS25/35..

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post #15 of 701 Old 12-04-2009, 08:13 AM
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I have a Lumis, the blacks are already so good in the end I don't think it will matter.
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post #16 of 701 Old 12-04-2009, 09:22 AM
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already posted sorry
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post #17 of 701 Old 12-04-2009, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin McCarthy View Post

Alan: This projector does look really interesting, and suggests a bright future (pun intended) for LEDs in general, but I have to question your use of the term "local dimming". This term has only been used with respect to flat panel LCD TV's, where it means multiple (ideally, many) discrete LEDs that provide back illumination for the LCD panel, and whose brightness can be individually varied based on the the local brightness of the scene. The Lumis projector uses a SINGLE Phlatlight LED for each of the three primary colors, each of which is a monolithic 16 x 9 aspect ration high power LED, with NO capability for intensity variation across the device. The SIM2 MICO50 press release makes no mention of local dimming, and the Phlatlight PT-120 data sheet even boasts of "uniform surface emission" over its 12 square mm emitting area. Could you be thinking of a different but very real advantage of LEDs, in which the light source intensity can be dropped everywhere at very high speed (impossible with lamp technology) when the entire scene is dark? That effect is like that of a dynamic iris, but essentially instantaneous (and silent), which avoids many of the disadvantages of dynamic irises. The problem with star fields (the overall scene is dark, so the iris / LED dims, reducing the star brightnesses) remains, however

http://www.sim2usa.com/home/files/do...CO50_dec09.pdf


http://www.luminus.com/stuff/content...t120_rev06.pdf


Still, the SIM2 MICO50 is an exciting development in projector technology, and we look forward to your review! Oh, and we're lovin' the RS15!

Kevin

Hi Kevin

There are two LED models that I know of one being the Sim2 and the Vivitek. The V uses and Iris while the Sim2 uses local dimming ( my wording ) or some kind of contrast or gamma enhancement without an iris.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"This machine is very bright."

Roughly how many L does it look like? Funny phrasing to allow for the claim that LED's look brighter for the same L because of higher saturation; either that or I'm really Scandinavian.

Will take some measurements and post early next week. To the eye on a Matte White screen 8 feet wide it is bright.
I do not want to guess but it is at least as bright as the RS with a new lamp and of course no light loss over time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

I thought the term local dimming was used in reference to LED backlighted LCD screens to improve the contrast by locally dimming dark areas of the picture while leaving the brighter areas fully illuminated. In this PJ surely the entire light source is being dimmed for the entire screen surface. What's local in this context?

Roger, good questions and I hope to find out more with time to provide a technical answer. I can only say most will prefer Dynamic black turned on and what ever is taking place it is done with out an iris.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post



No rainbows? Not even occasionally on B&W images? Amazing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post

How can any projector that does color sequentially not produce a rainbow effect of some type or another?

Putting up a cross hatch and darting your eyes back and forth it is more stable then 3 chip to my eyes. The technology appears very analog to me. This could be considered subjective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Free View Post

I am wondering how the 100,000:1 spec translates into real world viewing? Since the LED's can shut off completely, that would make achieving that measurement when displaying a full black field easy, but I would like to know how the black level in low light material compares to something like a Lumis, or RS35?

I would also love to hear what the ANSI CR measurement is on this, especially since it is new technology, and we really have no benchmark yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by humax View Post

Alan, I am really looking forward to hearing more of your impressions on this projector. Pictures would also be appreciated. Is it too much to ask for a shootout with the Lumis?

I think the Lumis may come out the winner in black level and brightness and ANSI but this does not lack in ANSI. It does display color no lamp projector can display and contrast is very good and the fade to black does shut down your pupil. I do not ee any pumping artifacts or crushed whites. Will have some basic measurements next week.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrisx510 View Post

Im really excited for the PJ! Can't wait to read some reviews from you and Jason. I am suppose to fly out to Rhode Island in the next few months I might have to fly out to NY and spend sometime at your guys store.

I would love to know how the MICO50 compares to the the Lumis and the RS25/35..

If you are ever in the area you must stop in. Please give us advance notice, we will make it worth your while Regarding comparing this to the RS I prefer to leave that reply to others. I am hoping the Mico will make it into the hands of someone who has no agenda (as Im a dealer ) and could better address this question.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Young View Post

I have a Lumis, the blacks are already so good in the end I don't think it will matter.

No wonder you disappeared, Im happy for you, congrats Greg.
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post #18 of 701 Old 12-04-2009, 11:50 AM
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Alan G.
I think we should stick to dynamic dimming for what this generation from Sim2 does. Coldmachine has already hinted that the next generation will be capable of dynamic local dimming.
Saturated light of equal brightness appear brighter to us due to how our biology is handling the stimulus. Laser is more extreme and would have a greater boost from this effect. I hope lasers for the lcd/lcos technologies are not far behind.

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post #19 of 701 Old 12-04-2009, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post

How can any projector that does color sequentially not produce a rainbow effect of some type or another?

To add to what Art and Alan said, while the color is done sequentially it is possible that an LED single chip DLP could have less rainbow effect to humans than a 3 chip DLP with a lamp, since 3 chip DLP technically has color separation too and the LEDs can be switched very quickly. I haven't figured out the math, but I recall TI claiming something like the equivalent of a 40x or 48x colorwheel with LEDs 2 or 3 years ago and they told me that the Air Force had done some studies that humans wouldn't see rainbows above something like 24x. They may have settled on a lower effective multiplier since then. I say "effective multiplier" mostly because with LEDs they don't have to do a fixed sequence between the colors like colorwheels do.

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post #20 of 701 Old 12-04-2009, 12:36 PM
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post #21 of 701 Old 12-04-2009, 02:07 PM
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$20K

People have reported seeing colour break-up on the pre-production PD Kroma at the Münchener High-End Show.

So, Ohlson that would mean modulation during scaning.

BTW, that LASER 2 LCoS 10" deep 100" diagonal retro projection 2D/3D monitor also sounds like it would be a nice one.
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post #22 of 701 Old 12-04-2009, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by donaldk View Post

$20K

People have reported seeing colour break-up on the pre-production PD Kroma at the Münchener High-End Show.

Nothing like that on this one. It is a solid performer. Curious what they could be doing different or what stage in the light engine that would cause that.
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post #23 of 701 Old 12-04-2009, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

To add to what Art and Alan said, while the color is done sequentially it is possible that an LED single chip DLP could have less rainbow effect to humans than a 3 chip DLP with a lamp, since 3 chip DLP technically has color separation too and the LEDs can be switched very quickly.

How does a 3-chip DLP (or any 3-chip projector) produce color separation? In any 3-chip machine, all 3 colors are modulated simultaneously on the screen - visible "rainbow effect" only results from the temporally exclusive modulation of colors in a 1-chip machine.

There are 10 types of people: those who understand binary, and those who don't.

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post #24 of 701 Old 12-04-2009, 04:29 PM
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so what size of 2:35 screen do you think that this could realistically light up given a fairly non agressive (1-1.3) gain?
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post #25 of 701 Old 12-04-2009, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bonedoc2be View Post

so what size of 2:35 screen do you think that this could realistically light up given a fairly non agressive (1-1.3) gain?

This is subjective but for my taste on my 8 foot wide it is bright. Add a lens and that would take it out to 10 feet delivering almost the same brightness on a Matte screen. You could easly do a 12 footer especially if your screen has some gain. Will measure brightness soon.
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post #26 of 701 Old 12-04-2009, 05:08 PM
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Thats great considering I am looking at a 11 foot wide AT scope screen with b/t 1.1 and 1.3 gain. What is the officially listed MSRP for these? (I believe discussion of MSRP is allowed, correct?)

So the major benefit is the color space and no/negligible lamp dimming right?
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post #27 of 701 Old 12-04-2009, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bonedoc2be View Post

So the major benefit is the color space and no/negligible lamp dimming right?

Very quiet, almost instant on/off back on again, little to no heat-this one is liquid cooled, no miss convergence, great color saturation.
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post #28 of 701 Old 12-04-2009, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HogPilot View Post

How does a 3-chip DLP (or any 3-chip projector) produce color separation? In any 3-chip machine, all 3 colors are modulated simultaneously on the screen - visible "rainbow effect" only results from the temporally exclusive modulation of colors in a 1-chip machine.

A 1 chip with a colorwheel and lamp can do 4 basic states for a pixel. Those states green, blue, red, and black. A 3 chip DLP 8 basic states for a pixel. Those states are white, green, cyan, blue, magenta, red, yellow, and black. Other than that the "rainbow effect" is pretty much the same idea with the chip having less because it can do those secondaries and white, along with because able to switch between those 8 states with the chips (not using a colorwheel). There are still color separations with the 3 chip because any color besides those 8 requires that the projector put one of the 8 up at one instance in time and then one or more others up at another point in time just to try to simulate the color people are supposed to see. Just consider creating a color halfway between green and yellow. The 3 chip DLP has to create that by doing green part of the time and yellow some of the rest of the time, letting people's vision kind of average that out.

An analog device in a 3 chip is a different story, but with DLP 3 chip doesn't mean no color separations. Less of them that would be noticeable to humans, but still there.

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post #29 of 701 Old 12-04-2009, 06:25 PM
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I think the SIM2 and Projection Design was in the $30-35K hood.

Frankly I hope they have tweaked this unit since CEDIA. That image was not that impressive for the cash IMHO.

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post #30 of 701 Old 12-04-2009, 06:40 PM
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Nobody has mentioned how big it is...

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