Thoughts on Bryston Torus Power Conditioners? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 41 Old 01-13-2010, 05:20 PM - Thread Starter
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I was wondering if anyone had opinions on Bryston Torus power conditioners... I was thinking of getting a unit for the front end units like Oppo Blu Ray player, Meridian 861, Meridian HD621, Marchand Bassis, Direct TV box, and whatever other front end stuff I have, like PS3...

Any thoughts?

http://www.toruspower.com/
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post #2 of 41 Old 01-13-2010, 05:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Benefits of Torus Power Isolation Units

Benefit #1:
Very low source impedance and high current for the power amplifier Torus power isolation units present low impedance to any electronic device that is connected to them. A Single 20 amp Torus PIU has an output impedance of 0.2 Ohms and can deliver 400 amp peaks (instantaneous current). The 100 amp unit only has .04 Ohms of output impedance. A typical 200 watt audio power amplifier demands 10 amps RMS current from a 120 volt line (1200VA) but may demand up to 50 amp instantaneous peaks. The standard residential wall receptacle can't supply the 50 amp peaks because they typically have higher nominal impedance. A Torus 20 amp PIU plugged into the same wall plug can supply these peak current requirements quite easily.

Benefit #2:
Power surge protection using Series Mode Surge Suppression rather than MOV's The Torus power products use the finest, most elaborate surge suppression technology available. Series Mode Surge Suppression does not shunt the spike to ground like MOV's do, and therefore the ground is infinitely more stable in a Torus power device.
Additionally, most MOV-based surge suppression units allow as much as 300 volts through to the protected components, easily enough to do substantial damage, where as Torus surge suppression has clamping voltage onset of around 2V above peak nominal voltage. Torus units are built to meet 6000 volts, 3000 amps at 1000 repeats standard.

Benefit #3: Total isolation from outside power grid: Torus power products provide isolation through its finest designed toroidal transformer between the outside power grid and the devices being protected. Such isolation helps to reject external noise sources such as motors, lights, and dimmers commonly found in the home environment. Torus power products provide noise filtering at a range from approximately 2000Hz to over 1MHz – other regular transformer based products do not start operating until nearly 10,000 Hz.

Benefit #4: High Power Capability: There are 15 models of Torus power products available ranging from 2.5 amps to 100 amps and 120/240 Volts. Torus has recently introduced NEMA wall-mount units, which are typically placed at the hydro panel for whole-house or whole-room power line isolation and protection.

Benefit# 5: Low Noise: Torus products utilize Plitron ‘LONO’ (Low Noise) transformer design technology that eliminates audible noise in the power transformer regardless of line conditions, DC offset and over-voltage. Torus products perform at the NC10 level measured on the standard NC (Noise Criteria) – which makes them suitable for use in very quiet environments such as professional recording and broadcast studios.

Benefit # 6: Cleaner Power: Torus products utilize Plitron “NBT” (Narrow Bandwidth Technology) to attenuate differential and common-mode noise without external circuits or components, and starting at a lower frequency (typically 2khz). The Torus result is startling – see press and user comments!
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post #3 of 41 Old 01-13-2010, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
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The only problem I have with benefit one, is the fact that amplifiers and all products power supplies have built in capacitors to supply peak power... So I'm not really appreciating benefit #1. They fail to mention that amplifiers and electronic devices power supplies have built in capacitance...
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post #4 of 41 Old 01-13-2010, 06:45 PM
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From what I recall of the TORUS it is an isolation transformer, which is a good thing for noise reduction and "filtering". It is the same type of technology deployed in hospitals for XRAY and MRI equipment.

It like a jumbo Equitech with improved filters, caps and surge suppression or at least I think it is.

This unit does not make the mumbo jumbo claims other in this market do.

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post #5 of 41 Old 01-13-2010, 08:13 PM
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I would add only a couple things; first- by plugging all your equipment into the transformer you'll be virtually eliminating the possibility of ground-loops (the transformer uses a derived ground) since everything will have the same ground; it makes a difference in your noise floor.

second- just because power supplies include striifening caps, doesn't mean that the design is optimized for efficiency. I've seen many very expensive, very high-end amplifiers that use a couple large capacitors per channel, but that type of design doesn't have the same recharge speed that a group of several small caps would have (smaller caps recharge faster)- so those current capapbilities could prove to be a benefit.

I don't know about the pricing of the unit you're looking at, but you may want to look at the isolation transformer from Ground-One (Arthur Kelm). Do some research on him, he knows his stuff when it comes to power! It might be useful to compare- but either way, the Torus pieces are extremely well built and the designs look very robust (internally and externally).

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post #6 of 41 Old 01-13-2010, 09:27 PM
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TORUS 200 amp custom unit shown.

I was leaning to using the big 120 balanced power unit. Somethink weird is going on with Equitech, they don't use the company name when they answer the phone so I looked at Torus which exhibits with Thiel at CES.

The thing is Balanced power and UPS's don't mix. The only thing left without microprocessors these days are power amps.

The Tact amp controllers use 2 x 15 amp plugs to feed, so basically all i really need is 4 x 15 and a spare. or a 5 x 20.

The three crestron ups's don't get balanced power.
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post #7 of 41 Old 01-13-2010, 11:20 PM
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Just based on cosmetics, and your endorsement.

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post #8 of 41 Old 01-14-2010, 04:21 AM
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Peter, given your market particularly you should be calling Arthur in on every project at the design stage. It's probably the best spent of your client's money. He's no joke.

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post #9 of 41 Old 01-14-2010, 08:13 AM
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DF and CMAX,

The magic sauce is the transformer and its multi tap arrangement.

I discovered, about 2 years ago, some folks used a transformer company called TOROID. I said to myself... self that name sounds familiar.

Well they are about 1 mile from office and I pass them to and from work each day! They make a plane Jane unit without all the fancy caps, filters and high end MOVS. So if you want noise and ground isolation this might be a more thrifty way out.

PM I might be able to get you a deal if I walk in an order a 100...

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post #10 of 41 Old 01-14-2010, 08:14 AM
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PeterMAX, is that the new Ayre BluRay in your stack?

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post #11 of 41 Old 01-14-2010, 08:34 AM
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Call me an ASCII Peter, but those look like mockups, and not real racks. There's no venting in the racks, and no rack screws in the right rack in the silver equipment (second pix).

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post #12 of 41 Old 01-14-2010, 08:38 AM
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CP, I think this is an "artist rendering" of what you could have if you can afford do own your own personal Greek Moon!

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post #13 of 41 Old 01-14-2010, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmiles View Post

From what I recall of the TORUS it is an isolation transformer, which is a good thing for noise reduction and "filtering". It is the same type of technology deployed in hospitals for XRAY and MRI equipment.

It like a jumbo Equitech with improved filters, caps and surge suppression or at least I think it is.

This unit does not make the mumbo jumbo claims other in this market do.

Yeah, it's refreshing to see a prosumer power conditioner without all the BS claims. But then I would expect no less from Bryston.

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post #14 of 41 Old 01-14-2010, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

I would add only a couple things; first- by plugging all your equipment into the transformer you'll be virtually eliminating the possibility of ground-loops (the transformer uses a derived ground) since everything will have the same ground; it makes a difference in your noise floor.

Dan

Well you still have to tie the secondary ground to the primary service ground. NEC does not allow floating ground systems. Even "isolated ground" is still tied to the service ground. The difference is where the tie is made. Isolated systems bring all grounds back to a commen point via insulated wire and don't use the conduit for ground.

It looks like the Ground One stuff is balanced power just like Equitek.

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post #15 of 41 Old 01-14-2010, 12:11 PM
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LA Glim knows his wire and AC my brothers...

Thanks for chiming in!

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post #16 of 41 Old 01-14-2010, 01:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Bottom line:

Which model would you get if you were chosing Bryston Torus conditioner for the front end units? Mine are: Oppo Blu Ray player, Meridian 861, Meridian HD621, Marchand Bassis, Direct TV box, Lumis Host, PS3, etc... I think it would be nice to have something decent between them and the power company.

Looks like there are two choices? Balanced requiring 220 V line, and unbalanced using standard 120: Any big difference?

The units I am considering are the RM 15, RM 20, RM 20 BAL, or RM 60 BAL ... not sure what the cummulative amperage of the front end devices are or what I can fit on the current rack. Also not sure how much I would notice between RM 20 vs RM 20 BAL? Would I need to install a 240 line to use the RM 20 BAL or RM 60 BAL?

Obviously crazy to get units for the Bryston 7BST monoblocks and Lab Gruppen 14000 FP+
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post #17 of 41 Old 01-14-2010, 02:19 PM
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I have their 20Amp US version in my living room. Since I live in the Lightning State - Florida, I plug EVERYTHING into it. Have not had a single issue except a bruised toe from it dropping on me. Don't use flip flops trying to lift it out of the box. Luckily my toe prevented any damage to the unit. It dropped 1 inch away so it wasn't as bad as it reads.

Speaking to the quality. I can only report that I can drive my system louder than is safe without any issues. My gear remains safe from standard voltage issues. Have not been struck by lightning to my knowledge.
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post #18 of 41 Old 01-14-2010, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Health Nut View Post

Bottom line:

Which model would you get if you were chosing Bryston Torus conditioner for the front end units? Mine are: Oppo Blu Ray player, Meridian 861, Meridian HD621, Marchand Bassis, Direct TV box, Lumis Host, PS3, etc... I think it would be nice to have something decent between them and the power company.

Looks like there are two choices? Balanced requiring 220 V line, and unbalanced using standard 120: Any big difference?

The units I am considering are the RM 15, RM 20, RM 20 BAL, or RM 60 BAL ... not sure what the cummulative amperage of the front end devices are or what I can fit on the current rack. Also not sure how much I would notice between RM 20 vs RM 20 BAL? Would I need to install a 240 line to use the RM 20 BAL or RM 60 BAL?

Obviously crazy to get units for the Bryston 7BST monoblocks and Lab Gruppen 14000 FP+

It depends. I would rather have the balanced version but it may require a ROMEX upgrade and electrician costs. If you have small children or plan on them, I would stay away from a 220/240 outlet that low to the floor.

In my case I have the un-balanced 20amp model. I tested the unit driving the following: 3 x Genelec HT315's, 1 x Genelec HTS6, 2 x Genelec AIW26's, Theta CBIII, Samsung LN55A950, Lumagen Radiance XE, Oppo Blu-ray, TiVo HD XL, APC S20BLK, Custom 750W HTPC without any issues.

Honestly I would buy to suit your needs. If you need the power for amps in a large cinema, then balanced would be my vote. If you have a media room or small cinema then the standard should work just fine.
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post #19 of 41 Old 01-14-2010, 05:53 PM
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Healthnut, You might take a look at the Bybee Purifer Line conditioner.
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post #20 of 41 Old 01-14-2010, 07:04 PM
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Healthnut, The correct name is the Bybee Wire Line Conditioner Purifier. There is a review over at The Stereo Times.
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post #21 of 41 Old 01-14-2010, 07:06 PM
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Nut, I'd say you have less than a 15 amp load max. so go from there.

You can also look at some ugly commerical units from Oneac and Powervar.

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post #22 of 41 Old 01-14-2010, 07:33 PM
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That is the Ayre, eagle eye.

Where they at CES?
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post #23 of 41 Old 01-14-2010, 08:02 PM
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Yep, I visited the room looking for Steve but did not see him and it was late in the day and did not listen or view the new player.

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post #24 of 41 Old 01-15-2010, 12:29 AM
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You will find this in all Bryston amps manuals:

Power line conditioners will not improve the xxxx amplifier performance, in fact most of the time they restrict the flow of current to the amplifier, reducing performance at higher output levels


Can also be read as : a properly designed power amp has it's own conditioning.
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post #25 of 41 Old 01-15-2010, 07:14 AM
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I would agree wholeheartedly with that statement from Bryston.

I would however disagree with your interpretation.

The way I read it is that power amplifiers will not benefit from conditioning, as the internal power supply filtering takes care of any AC noise coming into the amp. AS has been discussed here before, 'conditioning' is different from 'protection'. While almost all power amps have some chokes and MOVs to protect from surges, a large isolation transformer can protect an amp from things like lightning damage... in places that need protection like that.

I still maintain that power 'conditioners' do nothing for anything electronic, and as Bryston says, the internal resistance of said conditioners will limit the amount of power available to high current devices.

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post #26 of 41 Old 01-15-2010, 08:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt Palme View Post


I still maintain that power 'conditioners' do nothing for anything electronic, and as Bryston says, the internal resistance of said conditioners will limit the amount of power available to high current devices.

Essentially, the real benefits are the elimination of ground loops and heavier duty protection, but doing so with a low output impedance (unlike cheap 50.00 surge strips). I think of the Torus as a luxury more than neccessity, at least in California.

I'l take the peace of mind and better grounding, thats enough for me. I decided to get the 20A model. I'd consider the balanced 20A model, but not sure how much difference it would make?
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post #27 of 41 Old 01-15-2010, 04:50 PM
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Solid-state power amplifiers are largely immune to line voltage fluctuations because they use so much negative feedback (at least in the better designs). So the only significant effect of a small line voltage dip would be a small loss in power output capability. Probably not the case with some of the vacuum tube jobs, though.
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post #28 of 41 Old 01-15-2010, 05:33 PM
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Vacuum tubes have 'soft' clipping, so a momentary dip won't be noticed there either.

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post #29 of 41 Old 01-16-2010, 03:28 AM
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Excuse the simple inquiry but when you folks talk of balanced power, is that the equivalent of what we on the other side of the Atlantic have "as standard" in our homes i.e. 220V domestic electrical systems?

Sean
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post #30 of 41 Old 01-16-2010, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Besides the moron engineer in the 1800's?? who decided 110V should be our standard U.S.A. infrastructure, insted of 220, I think the answer is no... Balanced has nothing to do with the votage per se, but how it is derived. In fact, in the U.S., the way we get 220 is by having (2) 110 lines in series or such.. every house has 2 hot 110V lines coming into the box. Balanced power is the way it is wired for noise cancellation or such...

If only we could go back in time and tell the morons who made us 110V to go back and makes us 220V in the USA, and also change over to the metric system... morons! Bad ancestors! bad!!
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