Mr. Poindexter is expecting ... a new projector! DPI Titan 1080p Reference 3D - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 37 Old 04-20-2010, 04:00 PM - Thread Starter
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I just placed an order for the DPI TITAN 1080p Reference 3D. I don't have a ship date for it yet but am expecting it well before ESPN 3D comes online.

Once I get the arrival date, I will work on setting up an open house for anybody who wants to come over and see it side by side against a Sim2 Lumis.

My theater remodel should be finished on Thursday, just in time to rework the rack in anticipation for 3D.
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post #2 of 37 Old 04-20-2010, 05:15 PM - Thread Starter
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It looks like I am going to get to choose how much light I want. A lot, too much or "damn dude, did you go skiing?"

How many FtL is really too much for a theater with complete light control? I know there is a lot of talk about minimums, but has there been a good discussion for what is considered a maximum?
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post #3 of 37 Old 04-20-2010, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Poindexter View Post

It looks like I am going to get to choose how much light I want. A lot, too much or "damn dude, did you go skiing?"

How many FtL is really too much for a theater with complete light control? I know there is a lot of talk about minimums, but has there been a good discussion for what is considered a maximum?

I don't believe that you are going to find too many here who know how much is too much. I'm betting though with full light control ,and lights off, 25-30 fL would be getting in the ball park. The great thing is for sports you can just open it up with some lights on and it will be better atmosphere.

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post #4 of 37 Old 04-20-2010, 05:53 PM
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I feel a 4,kw watt xenon lamp is not particularly big enough for 3-D, for example we are spec'ing a 6kw lamp at Sköll for just about 16 foot wide. This is not only because we throw away nerly half the light with them cr mods, but with triple flash you have a portion of black repeated twice with no signal of significant duration, times each eye so that the proposition becomes 20% light and 80% no light. That is a pretty big hit, there won't be any did you go skiing commentaries... am afraid.

You would have to see the solidity of the 3d image projected by Christie with a 7,500 lamp unto a 8 foot wide picture to gauge the benefits of too much light.

Congratulations though, I am sure it will be a capital image.
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post #5 of 37 Old 04-20-2010, 06:37 PM - Thread Starter
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I have run my Mercury 5000HD with both lamps on before and didn't feel it was too bright. 5000 lumens is a lot of light even for a 150" Screen Research Clearpix2 but it was certainly watchable - quite enjoyable in fact with no hotspotting and very bright at the extreme edges too.

I will kick on both lamps tonight and see how it looks but I suspect I will be hosting an 8,000 lumen light cannon very soon.
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post #6 of 37 Old 04-20-2010, 08:35 PM
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you mentioned you had plans to compare it with Sim2. Are they still alive?
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post #7 of 37 Old 04-21-2010, 08:00 AM - Thread Starter
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One of the guys on the forum who has a Sim2 Lumis lives a mere 2 miles from me. He mentioned he was willing to bring it over for a shootout.
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post #8 of 37 Old 04-21-2010, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post

you mentioned you had plans to compare it with Sim2. Are they still alive?

SIM2 ?

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post #9 of 37 Old 04-21-2010, 09:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Wolfgang had his DP-2000 running up at 64 fL, as a treat for Art, that wasn't too bright now was it;-).

A few years ago there was an 56 fL demo at ISE, not even the CRT afficianodo's thought it too bright, so...
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post #11 of 37 Old 04-21-2010, 02:12 PM - Thread Starter
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According to my math, both bulbs on 16x9 format content would be 120 FtL. Using a 2.35:1 format with an ISCO lens, I should be at about 87.5 FtL. Either way, that would easily be bright enough for 3D and still damn bright if I run one lamp only, which will give me plenty of headroom for adjustments, but knowing 60 FtL isn't too bright is good.
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post #12 of 37 Old 04-21-2010, 02:50 PM
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I believe Wolfgang posted his Barco maxes out at 18K ANSI Lumens, guess you are running a smaller screen than his seven meter wide Kinoton;-). Still for 3D he has to scale down to five meter or less, just check his thread at the d-cinema subsection, it is trully impresive.
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post #13 of 37 Old 04-21-2010, 03:11 PM
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do not make the same mistake i did when i count how much light i have
with my barco dp 2000 with a 4000watt xenon lamp in 3d.

i measure the light drop the shutter i use have and calculate it for my 1.0
gain screen BUT i not think about that if i do 3D "with only one pr." i will have only half light in 3d.

beside the sony 4k pr.(that act like a double pr. 3d dlp set up)all single pr. that do
3d have half the light in 3d compare to 2d and than you have the shutter that at
least cost 75% light on top.

i count at my big 7m screen in 3d about 38ftl in 3d but as i was not right it was the half.
but 18ftl true the eye in 3d is still good and this time i bought the barco
the 4000 watt was the maximum lamp power and it gives arround 18000 lumen in 2d.

but as many other things looks in 3d at a small screen much better i use now
for 3d only a 3,6 m screen and i get over 50ftl in 3d there

the new upcoming 4k dpl i was sure they can do over 30000 lumens
may close to 40000

in 3d you never can have enough light!
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post #14 of 37 Old 04-21-2010, 03:35 PM - Thread Starter
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My screen is way smaller than Wolfgang's. I am running 150" wide, 1.0 gain.

I think when some people are calculating the 3D light, they are double counting the loss. You need twice the light because it is split in half - one for each eye. The majority of the light lost through the glasses is the part that cuts your light in half.

For example, if I am sending out 6000 lumens from my projector, 3000 lumens are being sent for the left eye and 3000 are being sent for the right eye. The light hits the screen, bounces off and goes through the glasses where the shutter blocks out as much right eye light as it can and lets all the left eye light it can for the left lens and the opposite for the right eye. If it was perfect transmission when open and perfect blocking when closed, you would get exactly half the light. Some light is lost going through the shutter glasses when they are not active but I am having a hard time believing it is only 25% or I could just use them for sunglasses.

Also, some light is getting through when closed and that does brighten up the overall image but at the cost of having video crosstalk.

Another part of the calculation that they use in theaters is the light lost when going through the polarization lenses and that is a substantial amount of light loss but for single projector use with shutter glasses, we don't have that step. (Also, theaters will often use LCD projectors as their light is already polarized so they don't lose light in that step where a DLP would).

Now maybe I am missing something, but I don't think I am. I have heard people talk about double flashing and (triple flashing?) and count that as light loss but from what I read about it, it just is a frame rate increase unless the documentation I have read is poorly worded. Double flashing from what I read as it was applied to a projector's feature list took a 60fps 3D signal and split it into two 30fps feeds and then upped the frame rate on them to 60fps each and reinterleaved the frames so that each eye got 60fps. It really isn't that different from feeding a newer flat panel monitor a 60Hz video feed and having it display it at 120 Hz or 240Hz. I don't see the 240Hz conversion looking 1/4 as bright as the 60Hz mode. I believe the major benefit of this is that it keeps the data going through an already overtaxed and flakey HDMI cable with HDCP to a more manageable level so you don't get HDCP handshake failures when your BluRay player is more than 3 inches from your projector.

If I am wrong, I would like to be corrected, but I am pretty sure I understand it quite well.
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post #15 of 37 Old 04-21-2010, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
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I found the old paper I read on the light output. They estimate 16% of the original light on a single DLP system for stereoscopic viewing. That should still net me a watchable picture if I start with 6000 lumens.
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You are right. With shutter glasses and a 120 or 144 refresh you will end up with ABOUT 15% of the light for a variety of reasons. You still should have enough for enjoyable viewing, the industry standard being the equivalent of 5 ft lamberts or so. The point here, I think, is the more the merrrier.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

i measure the light drop the shutter i use have and calculate it for my 1.0 gain screen BUT i not think about that if i do 3D "with only one pr." i will have only half light in 3d.

beside the sony 4k pr.(that act like a double pr. 3d dlp set up)all single pr. that do 3d have half the light in 3d compare to 2d

But Sony only uses half of the chips' surfaces, two times one quarter of the 4K, so I would expect these units to loose half the light output as well, so what makes they don't?
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post #18 of 37 Old 04-21-2010, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Poindexter View Post

My screen is way smaller than Wolfgang's. I am running 150" wide, 1.0 gain.

I think when some people are calculating the 3D light, they are double counting the loss. You need twice the light because it is split in half - one for each eye. The majority of the light lost through the glasses is the part that cuts your light in half.

For example, if I am sending out 6000 lumens from my projector, 3000 lumens are being sent for the left eye and 3000 are being sent for the right eye. The light hits the screen, bounces off and goes through the glasses where the shutter blocks out as much right eye light as it can and lets all the left eye light it can for the left lens and the opposite for the right eye. If it was perfect transmission when open and perfect blocking when closed, you would get exactly half the light. Some light is lost going through the shutter glasses when they are not active but I am having a hard time believing it is only 25% or I could just use them for sunglasses.

Also, some light is getting through when closed and that does brighten up the overall image but at the cost of having video crosstalk.

Another part of the calculation that they use in theaters is the light lost when going through the polarization lenses and that is a substantial amount of light loss but for single projector use with shutter glasses, we don't have that step. (Also, theaters will often use LCD projectors as their light is already polarized so they don't lose light in that step where a DLP would).

Now maybe I am missing something, but I don't think I am. I have heard people talk about double flashing and (triple flashing?) and count that as light loss but from what I read about it, it just is a frame rate increase unless the documentation I have read is poorly worded. Double flashing from what I read as it was applied to a projector's feature list took a 60fps 3D signal and split it into two 30fps feeds and then upped the frame rate on them to 60fps each and reinterleaved the frames so that each eye got 60fps. It really isn't that different from feeding a newer flat panel monitor a 60Hz video feed and having it display it at 120 Hz or 240Hz. I don't see the 240Hz conversion looking 1/4 as bright as the 60Hz mode. I believe the major benefit of this is that it keeps the data going through an already overtaxed and flakey HDMI cable with HDCP to a more manageable level so you don't get HDCP handshake failures when your BluRay player is more than 3 inches from your projector.

If I am wrong, I would like to be corrected, but I am pretty sure I understand it quite well.

Did you order your Titan 3D to be brighter that their standard model? I was told the standard configuration is 4000 Lumens. It can be factory optimized up to 8000 lumens. Also depends on the lens selected. What lens did you order?

Awesome theater btw!
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post #19 of 37 Old 04-21-2010, 10:44 PM - Thread Starter
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I thought it was 4-8k lumens but I saw somewhere it is listed as 4-6k. I need to get the lumens and lens picked - have to submit that tomorrow.

Thanks ccool96.
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post #20 of 37 Old 04-22-2010, 03:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk View Post

But Sony only uses half of the chips' surfaces, two times one quarter of the 4K, so I would expect these units to loose half the light output as well, so what makes they don't?

in practice a 20000 lumen single dlp pr. set up in 3d have the same light
comes to the eye than a 20000 lumen 4k sony pr.3d set up have
if the glasses are the same.

there are so many things in 3d that i like to write it down here but i not have
the time to do it.

-dark time delay are different at48/60 or 72hz.
-every adjustments there can make the picture more dim and add. light drop.
-it effekts the solarisationsbug a single dlp pr. have in 3d.
-there are other dark time adjustment that need to be adjustet and
all this can dim the picture.
if you like it perfect you need to measure the color through the galsses
and this for sure will kill some extra 10-20% light

and and and.....

again you never can have enough light in 3d.

i say this to protect people to buy a pr. that is to dim in 3d.
i was happy if someone told me "this" in advance but i have it to learn
the hard way.
thats one reason why i spend my time here.
soon or later people will know when they have there own experience.
wolfgang
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post #21 of 37 Old 04-22-2010, 08:29 AM
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With 3D Lumens = the intensity of epileptic seizures.
Mike you better strap yourself in and bite down on a chunk of wood
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post #22 of 37 Old 04-22-2010, 09:01 AM - Thread Starter
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I am going to use the new reverse epilepsy feature on my D-BOX seating so that when I do have a seizure from the 3D, the chair will access data from the accelerometers in my iphone, ipod and ipad to determine exactly which direction I am moving and offer an opposing force to counter it. Since the opposing forces will sum to zero, I will have no effects from the seizure. Of course, the person sitting with me will have the exact same effect I would have had but out of phase. Sucks to be them, but I paid the big money for the system so that is their price of admission.
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post #23 of 37 Old 04-22-2010, 09:23 AM
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Ok let me pick your brain...

Wolfgang on the NEW ti 2k4 series 2 for a 16(4.88M) foot wide, what lamp 4.5kw or 6 kw for best 3D?
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post #24 of 37 Old 04-22-2010, 11:04 AM
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What! no 7.5 KW, is this Cineramax speaking;-).

Are you adding contrast mods?

Read Wolfgangs initial response, he went back to 3.6 meters (roughly 11.5 feet) to accomodate 3D on his 4KW lamp projector. So would an extra 500 watts be enough to light up 1.8 times the screen area... Of course Wolfgang has nice headroom on his fL.
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post #25 of 37 Old 04-23-2010, 09:40 AM
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yes i like it bright very bright also in 3d.

for me if i not can get arround 20 ftl in 3d or 2d to my eye
i start to complain.

at above 30 ftl in 3d to the eye the picture looks very real.

i did a test a arround 60 ftl in 3d at very small screen size but
in a very dark room like i have thats to much.
like when you
see some dark 3d pictures and than a bright one comes you feel
like some one drunk to much beer and stand up at noon at full
sunlight

not forget the eye pupil gets big at a dim 3d picture and all the
problem get worse.
a bright 3d or 2d picture you pupil gets smaller and you can see
much better details.
my parents at 70 years need normaly a glasses but
if i do 30 ftl they can see it clear without any glasses.
same why people arround 50 need in the night a glass to drive a car
but not in daylight.
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Bite a chunk of wood? Alan, you dog, are you saying this will not bother beavers?

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post #27 of 37 Old 04-24-2010, 04:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

a bright 3d or 2d picture you pupil gets smaller and you can see
much better details.

This has been my issue thus far with commercial 3D. It is so dim (in some cases I'm betting not more than 5fL) that it starts to look lifeless and I can't make out details very well.

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post #28 of 37 Old 04-24-2010, 08:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, after doing quite a bit of looking into the cost of the rest of the 3D rollout, the fact that the glasses have not been standardized meaning I might need a collection of glasses for my theater and seperate and incompatible ones in my gameroom, I have decided to put the 3D upgrade on hold.

I will likely make the plunge next year when we have enough shakeout on the standards that things are more set in stone. I have already got a nice collection of dead technology doorstops - MiniDisc, DVA-Audio, SACD, HD-DVD and Voom. All those were easy enough to swallow, but I don't want to eat such an expensive item as the 3D server and glasses.
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post #29 of 37 Old 04-24-2010, 09:05 AM - Thread Starter
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So maybe I should rename the thread to "Mr.Poindexter is expecting... some new Kaleidescape gear." I am retiring the old 5U servers and moving to 3U in anticipation of the extra storage needs for BluRay which should be out sometime this year and rumored to be next month.
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post #30 of 37 Old 04-24-2010, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

This has been my issue thus far with commercial 3D. It is so dim (in some cases I'm betting not more than 5fL) that it starts to look lifeless and I can't make out details very well.

Art

art

a big cinema pr. manufacturer told me they measure from 3.5 to 5 ftl
in the best case in 3d depends on how old the lamp was.
average is arround 4ftl.

that you cant make out details is because its so dim but also because of the
dirty port hole glass(also a clean glass kills some picture quality) some times and often the picture was out of perfert focus as the need to do it otherwise the first rows see the pixels.

thats why we can have all in all with a good bd a picture that CAN be
better at home compare to the cinemas with the much better
cinema content.
just think about the exit lamp in green or red near the screen to
kill every cr. the pr. have

Best is to have cinema content at home with a perfect set up but bad is if you get used to it
you may like even the best bds not anymore.

i got avatar on bd today ....
what a difference!

have fun wolfgang
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