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post #271 of 786 Old 02-15-2011, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

You will have to add something in the signal path that band limits the stimulus or you will vaporize your tweeters and quite possibly your midrange drivers as well.

Thanks, good point. In the case of my stereo speakers it is definitely an issue, with my HT speakers I should be OK.

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post #272 of 786 Old 02-15-2011, 07:02 PM
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Thanks, good point. In the case of my stereo speakers it is definitely an issue, with my HT speakers I should be OK.

Does anyone know where I can get a good shielded DB25F-XLR snake? All the ones I have found Carl says needs to be modified. Cheers

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post #273 of 786 Old 02-15-2011, 07:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Carl and Chris,

If I understand you correctly, one can still get the benefit of the Dirac Live for x-over and driver optimization by using the AP20 to protect the drivers. That is, if one sets the x-overs to the minimum required x-over point and "slope" to protect the drivers, and then lets Dirac Live optimize the speaker, then one can see what x-over point it chooses, and how the drivers are eq'd. After one can apply the new settings with the AP20, and then re-run Dirac Live to get a better system optimization.

Am I correct in assuming Dirac Live will consider driver distortion when setting x-over points? For example, one of the drivers I'm using the manufacturer recommended it be crossed over around 180 Hz with a 4th order cross over; however, the driver's distortion figures improved significantly (and to a degree the sound quality) if crossed over around 400 Hz (with a 3rd order cross over). Would Dirac Live recognize the distortion issues and recommend the higher cross over point?

Thanks

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post #274 of 786 Old 02-15-2011, 07:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Does anyone know where I can get a good shielded DB25F-XLR snake? All the ones I have found Carl says needs to be modified. Cheers

If I remember correctly, Carl said the AP20 does not use a "standard" designation for the DB25F cable, so you can't just pick any cable. I know he sells a cable. Alternatively, find out what the cable pin designation is with the DB25F and the XLR (I think the manual describes it) and either solder one yourself or get one made by someone like Blue Jeans cable.

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post #275 of 786 Old 02-15-2011, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

If I remember correctly, Carl said the AP20 does not use a "standard" designation for the DB25F cable, so you can't just pick any cable. I know he sells a cable. Alternatively, find out what the cable pin designation is with the DB25F and the XLR (I think the manual describes it) and either solder one yourself or get one made by someone like Blue Jeans cable.

Ahhh... That is why he said that my choices needed to be modified. I didn't understand why, I though I was just showing Mal3 DB25 connectors and I just needed a female one.

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post #276 of 786 Old 02-15-2011, 10:15 PM
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"Am I correct in assuming Dirac Live will consider driver distortion when setting x-over points?"

Nope, I am afraid not. Dirac Live is purely about correcting frequency and time anomalies. Distortion is not addressed.

"the AP20 does not use a "standard" designation for the DB25F cable, so you can't just pick any cable."

The AP20 being a Commercial Cinema product uses a DB25 pinout established by Dolby years ago. That pinout is a Cinema industry standard. However nobody offers a stock Cinema cable. Hence you are always faced with the burden of rewiring the DB25 end of whatever you buy. As a service I do offer an 8 channel one meter analog out cable. You have the choice of balanced (XLRs) or unbalanced (RCA) connectors for $150. I also offer one meter digital out (XLRs) for the same price.

"If I understand you correctly, one can still get the benefit of the Dirac Live for x-over and driver optimization by using the AP20 to protect the drivers. That is, if one sets the x-overs to the minimum required x-over point and "slope" to protect the drivers, and then lets Dirac Live optimize the speaker, then one can see what x-over point it chooses, and how the drivers are eq'd. After one can apply the new settings with the AP20, and then re-run Dirac Live to get a better system optimization."

I prefer using the RTA that is built into the AP20 to determine the crossover setpoints. Dirac Live is a wonderful tool but the version that is part of the AP20 was designed to be used for channel optimization within a room and not for building crossover networks. In that regard I see using it to configure crossovers is a bit like using a screwdriver to drive in a nail when you have a shiny hammer within reach. That is you can do it if you really want to, but does it really make the best use of your tools?

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post #277 of 786 Old 02-16-2011, 03:51 AM
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Carl,


I have cable/interconnect runs of 11 meters. Each interconnect goes
to individual monoblocs.

Does this length pose a fabrication problem?


Cheers! and thanks.

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post #278 of 786 Old 02-16-2011, 05:32 AM
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Hi Chris,

If I understand you correctly, Dirac Live can then be used to estimate and optimize each driver in a speaker setup (e.g. two-way speakers in a stereo system with a sub), and then one can take that info, apply it to the speakers and sub through a digital x-over (e.g. the one in the AP20, or the one being developed for the DL3), and then run Dirac Live again to finish optimization? That is, one can experiment with Dirac Live to see if it is able to develop a better x-over configuration for speakers (that either lack a x-over, or whose x-over can be bypassed, e.g. external x-overs)?

Hi Raul,

You are right, and so is Carl. One way of experimenting with this is to set cross-overs just for protection of the speakers (to avoid our full-range stimulus vaporizing your tweeters) and then play around with Dirac Live to optimize the individual driver response.

Thanks Carl for pointing this out. We don't want anybody to break their speakers!
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post #279 of 786 Old 02-16-2011, 07:13 AM
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"I have cable/interconnect runs of 11 meters. Each interconnect goes to individual monoblocs. Does this length pose a fabrication problem?"

Not at all. I would recommend one of my standard breakout cables to go the first meter and then 8 runs of quality microphone cable from Guitar Center (or other convenient source) to go the rest of the distance. I also build a breakout cable that terminates into a 19 inch 1U EIA rack panel for those that prefer that presentation. The cost of a breakout panel is $300 (ie: more parts and more labor) whereas a standard one meter XLR breakout is $150.

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post #280 of 786 Old 04-17-2011, 06:26 PM - Thread Starter
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JapanDave,

I hope my question is not too inconsiderate, but have you had a chance to play with your AP20?

Thanks

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post #281 of 786 Old 04-18-2011, 01:52 AM
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JapanDave,

I hope my question is not too inconsiderate, but have you had a chance to play with your AP20?

Thanks

Unfortunately no. However I hope to do so in the next week or so.

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post #282 of 786 Old 04-18-2011, 11:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, I look forward to reading your comments.

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post #283 of 786 Old 04-18-2011, 07:39 PM
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Thanks, I look forward to reading your comments.

Honestly, I have been itching to get things set up so I can play with the house curve and set it up to suit me. Unfortunately things don't always go to plan and I have been waiting on a piece of equipment(nothing to do with the AP20) to arrive for a while now. Carl was great though, made me up some cables and had everything shipped really quick.

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post #284 of 786 Old 05-02-2011, 06:25 AM
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I've read this entire thread, and still have no idea if or how the AP20 could be reasonably used as a pre/pro for home theater use... I get that it is a professional unit, but am intrigued by its alleged capabilities and the strong support it's gotten from some respected forum members. That said, can I replace an Anthem D2V with this without major integration/programming/calibration/control/etc. headaches?
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post #285 of 786 Old 05-02-2011, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
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I've read this entire thread, and still have no idea if or how the AP20 could be reasonably used as a pre/pro for home theater use... I get that it is a professional unit, but am intrigued by its alleged capabilities and the strong support it's gotten from some respected forum members. That said, can I replace an Anthem D2V with this without major integration/programming/calibration/control/etc. headaches?

Yes and no. There are two headaches, and they can be trivial or major, depending on the user's requirements. It lacks Pro Logic IIx and bass mgmt. Regarding the latter, they are supposed to be in the process of updating the software to address this problem. The former is being addressed through in-house software.

If you use separate subs (and don't run the mains full range), this might not an issue for the user because one can redirect the bass of the mains to the dedicated subs by using the unit's x-over capabilities. However, if one would like bass mgmt, and there are valid reason to desire it, then one has to wait for the software upgrade. There is little reason to assume they cannot develop a proper means for bass mgmt, so this could be merely a waiting process (but for those who are aware of the HDMI update for the Theta CB III, this may be a sensitive concern; it took them far longer than they originally claimed it would take).

The lack of IIx is more dicey concern. The parties involved with this unit have excellent credentials, so one could assume that there is a good chance the replacement audio matrix they develop could equal or even surpass IIx, but it is a gamble. However, matrix audio is not a simple process, and there is a chance the parties involved might develop a matrix inferior to IIx.

I hope that helps clarify some of the expressed concerns.

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post #286 of 786 Old 05-02-2011, 11:10 AM
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Thanks Raul --

Carl has stated that bass mgt is on the way (actually it was supposed to be in some time ago -- where is it?), and I'm not so worked up over the dolby issue as I use DTSMA pretty much 100% of the time anyway; I assume the unit can substitute DTS algorithms for Dolby automatically - it can do that, right?
Where I get concerned is correctly assigning channels, crossovers, etc. and having it sound right before applying the DIRAC software so that it is correcting from the right start point. I also want to be sure that my remote of choice (currently AMX, might switch to iRule) will accurately control source switching, volume etc.
I'm generally a DIY guy, but am getting to the point where if it is a total PITA forget it. I might hire a pro to set it up, but I don't like adding more $$ if it can be avoided, especially for a machine that has so much apparent sophistication.
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post #287 of 786 Old 05-02-2011, 12:36 PM
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I'm not so worked up over the dolby issue as I use DTSMA pretty much 100% of the time anyway; I assume the unit can substitute DTS algorithms for Dolby automatically - it can do that, right?
PLIIx is not tied to any codec. It makes 7.1 from anything. As to whether there is a substitute, there could be at some point, but there isn't one in there right now.
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post #288 of 786 Old 05-02-2011, 01:06 PM
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Confused.... What does it do with Dolby-only encoded stuff then?
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post #289 of 786 Old 05-02-2011, 05:51 PM
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Confused.... What does it do with Dolby-only encoded stuff then?

The presumption is that you would have all the audio decoded in the BD player, and feed PCM to the AP-20, since it does not have all the usual decoders found in AVRs or AV processors.
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post #290 of 786 Old 05-02-2011, 08:15 PM
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Confused.... What does it do with Dolby-only encoded stuff then?

The name "Dolby" in that context means the company. Not Dolby the audio format used for surround sound. That logic takes uncompressed tracks and creates extra channels for 7.1 reproduction. Its input could be anything as Roger mentioned.

So whether it is Dolby or DTS encoded discs, the outcome is the same. If you don't have the above logic you can't have more output channels than input.

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post #291 of 786 Old 05-02-2011, 10:40 PM
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Thanks Raul --

Carl has stated that bass mgt is on the way (actually it was supposed to be in some time ago -- where is it?), and I'm not so worked up over the dolby issue as I use DTSMA pretty much 100% of the time anyway; I assume the unit can substitute DTS algorithms for Dolby automatically - it can do that, right?
Where I get concerned is correctly assigning channels, crossovers, etc. and having it sound right before applying the DIRAC software so that it is correcting from the right start point. I also want to be sure that my remote of choice (currently AMX, might switch to iRule) will accurately control source switching, volume etc.
I'm generally a DIY guy, but am getting to the point where if it is a total PITA forget it. I might hire a pro to set it up, but I don't like adding more $$ if it can be avoided, especially for a machine that has so much apparent sophistication.

The bass management is almost done, it is undergoing a few final tweaks and should be here shortly.

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Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

Do you know what Nemesis means?

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post #292 of 786 Old 05-04-2011, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Where I get concerned is correctly assigning channels, crossovers, etc. and having it sound right before applying the DIRAC software so that it is correcting from the right start point. I also want to be sure that my remote of choice (currently AMX, might switch to iRule) will accurately control source switching, volume etc.

This is actually fairly straight forward if you read the manual, but there is a strong proviso. You have to know what you are doing regarding x-overs. If you assign the wrong x-over (especially if you are using the processor as a digital x-over, like some of us intend to) and assign the wrong channel, you could destroy a driver. If you merely assign the wrong x-over, the system will not be performing up to potential. I.e. Dirac Live can compensate for frequency amplitude, phase, and other concerns, but it has limited ability to recognize poor x-over points (e.g. you set it too low and the driver is withing its distortion range).

I can't comment on the remote since my intent is to use an iPad.

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post #293 of 786 Old 05-04-2011, 10:39 AM
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Raul, I have started to get things setup, but I am still not able to get Dirac to work due to my sound card not working with my new laptop. But my initial impressions are very good. I like the sound quality better than Krell and my DHC Integra needs to go to the dump, funny thing was that the Krell only sounded slightly better when I compared the Integra to the Krell.

I am loving the flexibility the AP20 has and although it can be a bit time consuming to understand how to do things (I am not the most clued in guy with electronics) it is not impossible to do.

I have to mention here that Carl has been great in providing quick and accurate support in all aspects of the setup.

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post #294 of 786 Old 05-04-2011, 11:35 AM
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This is actually fairly straight forward if you read the manual, but there is a strong proviso. You have to know what you are doing regarding x-overs. If you assign the wrong x-over (especially if you are using the processor as a digital x-over, like some of us intend to) and assign the wrong channel, you could destroy a driver. If you merely assign the wrong x-over, the system will not be performing up to potential.

That's one of the things I'm concerned with... Where would I find the info I need as to X-over settings? Could Datasat provide that?

I also am thinking of an iPad for the remote - I'm tired of having to pay a programmer several hundred dollars for code every time i change out a piece of hardware with the AMX. It's not that I'm cheap, I just think it's a complete waste of money given today's technology.
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post #295 of 786 Old 05-04-2011, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
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That's one of the things I'm concerned with... Where would I find the info I need as to X-over settings? Could Datasat provide that?

Could you please elaborate? Are you thinking of using the AP20 as a digital x-over for the speakers (your question seems to suggest that you are not)? If you are simply considering a x-over from a perspective of going from the mains to a sub, then it is pretty straight forward (you could x-over anywhere from 50 Hz to 120 Hz depending on your setup, number of subs and so on). You would not be able to get any support from Datasat (here is one of the disadvantages, this unit was not geared to the general consumer); however if you purchase your unit through Carl (he is one of the participants in the thread), not only could you get support, but you would be getting support from one of the individual's involved in its design (something you cannot get from most consumer SSP). Judging from JapanDave's comments above, it is hard to imagine you would not be able to get proper support on setting up your x-overs from Carl.

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post #296 of 786 Old 05-04-2011, 12:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Raul, I have started to get things setup, but I am still not able to get Dirac to work due to my sound card not working with my new laptop. But my initial impressions are very good. I like the sound quality better than Krell and my DHC Integra needs to go to the dump, funny thing was that the Krell only sounded slightly better when I compared the Integra to the Krell.

I am loving the flexibility the AP20 has and although it can be a bit time consuming to understand how to do things (I am not the most clued in guy with electronics) it is not impossible to do.

I have to mention here that Carl has been great in providing quick and accurate support in all aspects of the setup.

Take your time with the setup...past experience has taught me that rushing matters just ends up consuming more time later. I look forward to reading your take.

Thanks

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post #297 of 786 Old 05-04-2011, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by schlitzie View Post

That's one of the things I'm concerned with... Where would I find the info I need as to X-over settings? Could Datasat provide that?

I also am thinking of an iPad for the remote - I'm tired of having to pay a programmer several hundred dollars for code every time i change out a piece of hardware with the AMX. It's not that I'm cheap, I just think it's a complete waste of money given today's technology.

What do you need? What questions can I answer for you?

As to a remote I like your idea of an IPad. Is there an IPad app out there that can send command strings to a target IP? The AP20 can be remotely operated by command strings sent via Ethernet.

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post #298 of 786 Old 05-04-2011, 01:49 PM - Thread Starter
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What do you need? What questions can I answer for you?

As to a remote I like your idea of an IPad. Is there an IPad app out there that can send command strings to a target IP? The AP20 can be remotely operated by command strings sent via Ethernet.

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Peter (CINEMARAX) seems to suggest that it is possible

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post #299 of 786 Old 05-04-2011, 05:10 PM
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Thanks Raul, I have been taking my time for sure. I just ordered a new mic preamp and it should be here soon.

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Peter (CINEMARAX) seems to suggest that it is possible

@schlitzie, I think any device capable of VNC will work.

When setting up the AP20, you can control the AP20 through a wireless router.

Here is a screen shot of my laptop, I have been controling the AP20 from it while setting up Dirac live.


LL

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post #300 of 786 Old 05-04-2011, 05:25 PM
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That's one of the things I'm concerned with... Where would I find the info I need as to X-over settings? Could Datasat provide that?

I also am thinking of an iPad for the remote - I'm tired of having to pay a programmer several hundred dollars for code every time i change out a piece of hardware with the AMX. It's not that I'm cheap, I just think it's a complete waste of money given today's technology.

This is one reason why I went with the AP20, b/c there are not a lot of qualified installers here in Japan, so I wanted a unit that I could install myself and do any necessary changes myself. As I said before I am not the most clued in on how to setup preamps, but I have it almost completely setup. The only problem is that my Mic's USB preamp is not compatible with my laptop(the preamp is pretty old). All I have left to do is set the levels on the preamp and run measurements. I can then set the house curve to what ever I want and save each of those curves to turn on and off during a movie to see which one I like best. I can't remember how many curves you can save but I think it was over 20. You only get the choice of one curve with software like Audyssey ect

As for cross-over settings, if you understand how high and low pass settings work than it is as simple as setting those filters to what you want with roll off anywhere from 6 to 24 dB's. This allows you the flexibility to control that aspect.

My build thread

My 8 x RE XXX 18" Subwoofers, IB build
Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

Do you know what Nemesis means?

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