Is the Dirac Research AP20 a SOTA SSP? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 786 Old 01-20-2011, 08:37 AM
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Noah,

There really isn't a primary listening position as such. What you do is take more measurements in those places where you are more apt to be listening. Doing that will bias the results to favor those positions.

To create multiple filters simply store the room samples off as a project. If you do that you have the measurements on hand to reload and create new filters whenever the mood strikes you without having to measure the room again.


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post #182 of 786 Old 01-20-2011, 08:45 AM
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A quick not on Dirac Live setup time ...

When setting up Dirac Live for the first time you need to use the Dirac Live software running on a laptop to capture room measurements. To work, the Dirac Live software requires a measurement microphone and USB mic preamp (not provided).

Each measurement takes roughly 30 seconds per channel. If you have a 5.1 system that amounts to 3 minutes (ie: 30 seconds x 6 channels) per measurement cycle. If you takes 12 samples (typical for a small listening room) plus 'twiddle time' to create your curves you will have spent 45 minutes to an hour to have created your first set of filters. Load those filters into the AP20 or DL2 using the provided software and setback and enjoy!

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post #183 of 786 Old 01-20-2011, 10:27 AM
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I see, thanks, Carl.

Another question - how is XO between satellites and sub(s) handled?

Can the AP/DL units be told what XO freq's are used for each speaker and manipulate their freq/phase responses for a good blend?

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There really isn't a primary listening position as such. What you do is take more measurements in those places where you are more apt to be listening. Doing that will bias the results to favor those positions.

To create multiple filters simply store the room samples off as a project. If you do that you have the measurements on hand to reload and create new filters whenever the mood strikes you without having to measure the room again.


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post #184 of 786 Old 01-20-2011, 11:21 AM
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Noah,

The Dirac Live software makes suggested 'HI' & 'LO' shelfs for each channel that is based on what was measured. However you are free to change the frequencies as well as the roll-off rates. The HI/ LO filters are represented as familiar 'analog like' settings of 6,12,18,24 and 48dB per octave at whatever frequency is declared.

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post #185 of 786 Old 01-20-2011, 02:57 PM
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Carl tell them that the guy that designed the great sounding dacs is the same guy that did the theta casablanca dacs. Is that the six-shooter?
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post #186 of 786 Old 01-20-2011, 03:39 PM
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Shhh ...

That's a secret! What I can say is that the talent that crafted the AP20 hardware knows the insides of the Theta Casablanca and their DACs very, very, very well. It's a small, small world at that level of expertise.

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post #187 of 786 Old 01-20-2011, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Carl tell them that the guy that designed the great sounding dacs is the same guy that did the theta casablanca dacs. Is that the six-shooter?

The Six-shooter has no DACs; it is all analog.

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post #188 of 786 Old 01-20-2011, 06:35 PM
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The Six-shooter has no DACs; it is all analog.

Goes to show my expertise on theta, but the casablanca is highly touted for the dac part , right?
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post #189 of 786 Old 01-20-2011, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
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Goes to show my expertise on theta, but the casablanca is highly touted for the dac part , right?

This is going OT but there are several levels of DAC options for the CB. The top ones are pretty damn good.

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post #190 of 786 Old 01-20-2011, 07:56 PM
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Thanks Kal, And very off topic but today I found this image on facebook which I had lost a while back.

You know the Harvard glee club is opening ceremonies for the JFK 50th anniversary concert.


There is a shot of the 1904 class of the harvard glee club, theres FDR and there is my Grandfather, Enrique Montoulieu (my youngest son is the spitting image). They were friends through ww2, because of insider intel, Cuba declared war on Germany 2 days before Hitler declared war on the Usa ( I have touched on Cuban One Upsmanship before ).

In addition he used the connection to help obtain Cuban and then American visas for a group of 8 refugees from Pilsner which could otherwise have returned to concentration camps. This was not a politically correct thing to do in cuba at the time, with 40,000 anti heb cubans parading down the street, so he risked position and as such my grand dad qualifies to be submitted to Yad Vashem as righteous among the nations (like a lesser Schindler but the torah law is such that if you save 1 is like saving thousands).

Steven Speilberg: have your people call my people.
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post #191 of 786 Old 01-21-2011, 01:49 PM
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That sounds good, but how is the pre/pro's bass management dealt with?

You could set all the satellites to Large, but then how do you combine the bass from them to send to the sub channel?

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Noah,

The Dirac Live software makes suggested 'HI' & 'LO' shelfs for each channel that is based on what was measured. However you are free to change the frequencies as well as the roll-off rates. The HI/ LO filters are represented as familiar 'analog like' settings of 6,12,18,24 and 48dB per octave at whatever frequency is declared.

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Peter, that's a fascinating bit of history.

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post #192 of 786 Old 01-21-2011, 07:12 PM
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Aah ...

Bass management. Bass management finds its way into the AP20 in the next software rev. I am expecting that to show in no more than 45 to 60 days.

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post #193 of 786 Old 01-22-2011, 01:20 AM
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Thanks Noah, that was a story told every Christmastime around the tree in our home when I was a 5-7. I remember going looking for their card hanging in the Christmas tree and bring it over to my mom to re-tell me the fascinating story. the Bracks relocated near Faileigh Dickinson. When Castro came to power they in turn housed my brother while he went to school there.





Did anyone hear the Harvard Glee Club Performance yesterday?
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post #194 of 786 Old 01-22-2011, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

Noah,

The Dirac Live software makes suggested 'HI' & 'LO' shelfs for each channel that is based on what was measured. However you are free to change the frequencies as well as the roll-off rates. The HI/ LO filters are represented as familiar 'analog like' settings of 6,12,18,24 and 48dB per octave at whatever frequency is declared.

Best Regards,
Carl Huff

Carl,

I was going over the manual and they specify a max 24dB roll-off rate. Is 48dB available? I would prefer the latter, although it is not a deal killer. Also, it says that if you have six channels of audio coming in, then you have 10 available for D/A. I assume they mean if you have 6 channels analog coming in (i.e. using up six digital converters), and not when one has 6 channels coming in through HDMI. Am I correct in my assumption?

PS Noah, I concur, nice piece of history Peter.

Thanks

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post #195 of 786 Old 01-22-2011, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

Bass management finds its way into the AP20 in the next software rev.

I guess that means none for the DL2?

I guess it could still work if the speaker measurements are made after bass management by the pre/pro, by disabling XO filters in the DL2 if possible, or setting them for the lowest slopes and beyond the XO freq already set.

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post #196 of 786 Old 01-22-2011, 04:13 PM
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Raul,

The slopes that I was speaking of are those found in the Dirac Live software and not in the AP20 that are used when configuring active crossovers. The Dirac Live software supports channel HI/ LO slopes with rates of 6,12,18,24 and 48dB per octave.

The AP20 has 8 channels of Analog to Digital conversion onboard. The inbound HDMI channels are whatever the max HDMI supports (8???). In any case you can spend the 16 channels out in any way that you see fit. I recentlly configured a system of 3 way L,C & R channels with 4 surrounds and and LFE. Two channels were left over to feed another room. It all worked very well!

Noah,

Bass management gets added to the AP20 in 45 to 60 days. The DL2 is a straight line Dirac Live processor. It does not contain crossovers or bass management. The DL3 (now in development) will include bass management and crossovers.

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post #197 of 786 Old 01-22-2011, 04:40 PM
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I could sell you an 8 channel DB25 to XLR breakout cable. We custom make them for clients. For $150 (plus cost to ship) you get a one meter cable using quality parts. Other lengths are available upon request.

Carl, would this cable have the correct DB25 terminations? They also make an RCA version. Does DB25 audio follow some industry convention?

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post #198 of 786 Old 01-22-2011, 04:45 PM
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I ordered hosa analog ones and boy where they off, i think I got 1 or 2 channels to work.

I am sending them to Karl to fix for me.

Also on the aes 25 pin cables can we get better cables like silver tinned and that kind of stuff?

Mogami wire is great for snakes but so is canare and the other brand you mentioned...

But is there a higher level with silver tinning on it ?
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post #199 of 786 Old 01-22-2011, 09:27 PM
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Unfortunately so called standard DB25 to XLR cables do not work. If you are interested in a cable with 'special qualities' you could always buy the cable and then rewire the DB25 end to the DDE specification. The pinout is described in the AP20 Users Manual. If rewiring the cable is something that you would rather not take on, you could always buy the cable and then send it my shop to be modified and tested for a reasonable fee.

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post #200 of 786 Old 01-27-2011, 09:10 AM
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HOSA is a very cheap cable. Try WHIRLWIND if they have the config/connnectors you need.

You can roll your own with some Canare, Belden or Carol wire. AMPHENOL makes, or used to, a good connector.

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post #201 of 786 Old 01-27-2011, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
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HOSA is a very cheap cable. Try WHIRLWIND if they have the config/connnectors you need.

You can roll your own with some Canare, Belden or Carol wire. AMPHENOL makes, or used to, a good connector.

Thanks Mike, enjoying the weather?
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post #202 of 786 Old 01-31-2011, 05:23 PM
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the day after Christmas we got 8" of snow.

this past few days have been in the upper 40's but before that it was in the mid 20's by day and high teens at night.

today it was 38 but now it is sleeting and below 30.

in short the weather blows, thanks for asking!

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post #203 of 786 Old 02-02-2011, 01:13 AM
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this is christoffer ahlen from dirac in uppsala- the research is done in association with the university of uppsala. I summon him to appear in this thread and explain why a system this good is so little known in the home market.:d

Hi all, nice to meet you at CES cineramax. I think the main reason why the system is not so well known yet is that we have mainly been working with OEMs to date. This spring, however, we will release several new consumer products. Let me know if I can answer any further questions.

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Carl, what is the resolution of the filters in Dirac Live?

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not to be mysterious, but the runtime filters are crafted by the measurement software dependent upon what it finds in the room. As result i cannot give you a stock answer as the filters are somewhat dynamic in nature. Perhaps someone from dirac research (assuming that they are monitoring this thread) can give a better answer.

The AP20 implementation of Dirac Live uses more than 20 000 FIR filter coefficients at 96 kHz sampling rate. That should not be interpreted as yielding a fixed resolution of 2.4 Hz however since the optimization is not at all like a multiband graphical equalizer. The algorithm uses a variable degree of resolution, depending on the amount of response variations from one measurement position to the other. If the frequency response has a peak at a certain frequency in some microphone locations but a dip at others, a less aggressive correction is applied. The resolution will be increased at frequencies where there is less spatial variation. Similarly in the time domain: The impulse response optimization will only reduce early reflections and the direct wave, since later parts of the impulse response differ a lot from one position to another and cannot be controlled robustly. Frankly speaking, resolution is quite tricky to define, but we feel that with 20 000 FIR taps at 96 kHz, there is enough resolution for pretty much any application.

Recently, we have however developed a new filter structure. Most of the impulse response correction happens early in the FIR filter. Therefore, most of what happens later can be modeled with IIR filters. Actually, combining a shorter "head part" FIR filter with a "tail part" IIR filter provides both better processing economy and better filter performance. We call this the FIIR filter structure.
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post #204 of 786 Old 02-02-2011, 08:05 AM - Thread Starter
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This spring, however, we will release several new consumer products. Let me know if I can answer any further questions.
Hi Ahlen,

Can you give us some idea of they types of consumer products you are planning to release (the more info the better).

Thanks

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post #205 of 786 Old 02-02-2011, 08:37 AM
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is the Dirac Live portion available as a separate box?

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There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #206 of 786 Old 02-02-2011, 10:22 AM
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Yes, please, or at least when/where to look for announcements.

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Hi Ahlen,

Can you give us some idea of they types of consumer products you are planning to release (the more info the better).

Thanks


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post #207 of 786 Old 02-02-2011, 10:39 AM
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"... is the Dirac Live portion available as a separate box?"

The DL2 from KAD Products is the first hardware solution that is the 'Dirac Live portion' only. That product will be available in 45 to 60 days. Watch www.dl2.biz and www.audiotoys.biz (and this thread) for announcements.

_____________
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post #208 of 786 Old 02-02-2011, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

"... is the Dirac Live portion available as a separate box?"

The DL2 from KAD Products is the first hardware solution that is the 'Dirac Live portion' only. That product will be available in 45 to 60 days. Watch www.dl2.biz and www.audiotoys.biz (and this thread) for announcements.

_____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff

Analog, HDMI, TOX... What type of inputs? Approx cost?

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post #209 of 786 Old 02-02-2011, 11:04 AM
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"Analog, HDMI, TOX... What type of inputs? Approx cost?"

The DL2 will be 8 RCA analog IN/OUT and will retail for $2,300. However Dirac Research and KAD Products will team up for an 'early adopter special' and offer software and hardware bundled for $1,800 for a limited time.

The DL3 (summer 2011) will be 8 balanced analog XLR IN/OUT and a TOSLINK input (but no decoders) and will also include active crossovers and bass management. A final price for the DL3 has not set as of yet.
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post #210 of 786 Old 02-02-2011, 04:59 PM
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Hello Chris,

Welcome to the Forum.

I have read your white paper and found it extremely interesting. Your writing is exceptionally clear and explained some problems that had bothered me for years. Your analysis of the three ways to fix a dip was especially useful.

I am curious as to how Dirac Live does subwoofer and main speaker time alignment. Because of the large wavelengths this has always seemed to be difficult problem to solve by measuring arrival times. Trial and error seemed to be the rule of the day. Are you able to not only get the two sources in phase, but also to have them time aligned so that the initial wavelength of each source arrives at the same time?

Thank you.
George
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