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post #1 of 126 Old 10-13-2010, 07:31 AM - Thread Starter
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I would like to use this thread to discuss experiences with TRINNOV EQ. I am very interested in the ADA TEQ implementation of this EQ system.

How does TRINNOV compare to other solutions like Audyssey Pro, Anthem ARC or a parametric EQ in the hands of a skilled professional?

I guess quite a few around here have first hand experience - be it the standalone Trinnov Optimizer or the ADA TEQ CEDIA demo. Please share!
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post #2 of 126 Old 10-13-2010, 08:33 AM
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I'll take the chance to state that the first two ADA TEQ units in Europe should be arriving around the first week of November where they will be immediately compared with Audyssey MultEQ XT and high quality parametric.

My experience is that HQ parametric in the right hands can make huge improvements but the Trinnov gets you there faster and ultimately can take you further.

The Audyssey is a fine piece of engineering but can be a little hit or miss since you need to rely on it to process everything and the only data on what it is doing comes from the output report. If you have time to analyses a room with RTA and then adjust the Audyssey target curves as appropriate you can also get excellent results.

What is so cool about the Trinnov is that you get good data, fast thanks to the quad mic. You can analyse this data in detail and make informed choices about what the system should do. No matter how clever your processor having this option of human tuning is what makes the most difference.

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post #3 of 126 Old 10-13-2010, 08:45 AM
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Can you do filters within filters and how would this piece compare to the big multi channel QSC?


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post #4 of 126 Old 10-15-2010, 04:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Jeff,

how would you describe the difference the TEQ-12 made during the CEDIA demo?
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post #5 of 126 Old 10-15-2010, 05:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLion View Post

Jeff,

how would you describe the difference the TEQ-12 made during the CEDIA demo?

Stark. Very powerful device. IT'd be great to try it out at home, but no chance. I had Mark Seaton speak with Curt Hoyt. Mark like the flexibility.


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post #6 of 126 Old 10-15-2010, 05:11 AM
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Trinnov processing is much more than just an EQ. Too busy to get into it at this moment... But I suggest doing some research on the Trinnov Optimizer so a fair comparison can be made.

dream in algorithms


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post #7 of 126 Old 10-15-2010, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLion View Post

I would like to use this thread to discuss experiences with TRINNOV EQ. I am very interested in the ADA TEQ implementation of this EQ system.

How does TRINNOV compare to other solutions like Audyssey Pro, Anthem ARC or a parametric EQ in the hands of a skilled professional.

I guess quite a few around here have first hand experience - be it the standalone Trinnov Optimizer or the ADA TEQ CEDIA demo. Please share!

The Lion:

Thanks for starting this thread because things are going to get extremely interesting over the next few months as we have started taking orders for the TEQ's first full production run. We anticipate shipping units before year's end. Between now and then, there is a great deal of work to be done.

None the less, this is extraordinary technology. Frankly, in all my years of home cinema, I will even suggest that this will rank among the very few surround-sound game-changers (like Pro Logic, THX, Dolby AC3, and lossless multi-channel).

For those who might be attending the CES show, ADA along with avielo, Screen Innovations, and RBH Sound have a suite in the Venetian, 30-311 so book your travel today;-)
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post #8 of 126 Old 10-15-2010, 11:31 AM
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Im very interested in this piece, and look forward to reading of its capabilities and the opinions of the first testers.

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post #9 of 126 Old 10-15-2010, 04:06 PM
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R-ADA,

What was installed in the Home Innovations demo at CEDIA?

It was a difference when defeated [turned off] but not night and day [like Bland referred] or at least not to me.

Mike Miles

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post #10 of 126 Old 10-16-2010, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by mmiles View Post

R-ADA,

What was installed in the Home Innovations demo at CEDIA?

It was a difference when defeated [turned off] but not night and day [like Bland referred] or at least not to me.

mmiles:

The CEDIA New Technologies Pavilion was run on a Cinema Rhapsody Mach IV B with a TEQ-12 and an MPA-502 for the fronts (5 chs. including upper right & left) and a PTM-6150 for the surrounds and back surrounds (4 chs). The Triad subs were self powered. We used 11 of the 12 channels on the TEQ-12 for a 9.2 speaker array.

I think the WOW level of the theater going into bypass depended on what cut was being played and when in the cut the few seconds of bypass occurred. My favorite audio demo we used was from Chris Botti's BD "In Boston". We began the week using "I've Got You Under My Skin" featuring Katherine McPhee and believe me, you could really hear the effect of exiting the Trinnov Optimizer by briefly hitting bypass. This was less present when playing Cryin' featuring Steven Tyler which we switched to because it seemed to be a less boring demo (for the masses). Later in the show, we did the bypass during a segment from the trailer of Tron (not lossless - standard 5.1) and depending on when they pressed the button, the effect was dramatic or more subtle.

So not everyone had the same demo and yes, there are variations in how dramatic going into bypass was for different people. It will also depend on where you sat in that theater as the surround speakers where right on top of you (in the ceiling) and as such, while the center seat in the three-row, by three seat (9 total) theater was very much the "money seat", while we tried to null out the optimizer for as even a distribution as possible, some seats had better sound than others.

Lastly, in this theater we did not engage 3D remapping leaving it set to 2D remapping. When we did have 3D remapping on, the money seat got much better but the other seats suffered more. For me, this really drove home an essential rule of home theater design that when possible, place your seating area inside the speaker surround field allowing for as much equal distance to each speaker as possible. In the CEDIA demo, this was absolutely not the case. The TEQ demo in the RBH sound room was more in line with this concept and as such, we were able to turn 3D remapping there. Note, for those who did visit RBH on Thursday or Friday, I don't think the TEQ was added until Saturday morning although the Suite 7.1 HD and PTM-6150 were running the theater all days.

I hope this might help explain difference in demo experiences.

Have a great weekend.

Richard
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post #11 of 126 Old 10-16-2010, 03:26 PM
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I was at RBH on Friday so I did not get to audition the Trinnov.

At the CEDIA New Tech Pavillion they were playing a trailer or "teaser" for a soon to be released movie about some space age warrior guy going back in time looking for his father... I think.

They cut the Trinnov on/off during the end during dialouge with a gal in skin tight white outfit was doing her thing.

So the demo material was probably a major factor in my overall impression.

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post #12 of 126 Old 10-17-2010, 08:40 AM
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Here are highlights from the Dirac Room Correction piece: (How does the ADA compare to the below features)??

Benefits and Technical Highlights
• Mixed-phase Dirac Live® FIR filter technology optimizes impulse response properties of the sound system, as well as the stationary frequency re- sponse
• Improves the sound; not just in one position, but in a listening region of arbitrary size.
• Only system on the market that provides true working impulse response correction as measured over a large listening region
• The impulse response is critical for stereo perception. Localization and stereo hearing, in general, depends on the similarity between and the quality of the left and right impulse responses. Only Dirac Live® improves the precision and clarity of the stereo image.
• Why mixed-phase filters? Because loudspeakers measured in rooms are mixed-phase and consequently only a mixed-phase correction can restore the impulse response. Minimum-phase filters or linear-phase filters only consider the magnitude response and fail to improve, and sometimes in- stead corrupt, the actual impulse response of the system.
• Separate time- and frequency-domain modeling yields a correction that is more detailed in time/frequency regions with small spatial variations and less detailed where the sound system has larger spatial variations. Typically less detailed correction at high frequencies, and more detailed correction at lower frequencies.
• Space- and frequency-adaptive impulse response estimation and correc- tion that results in direct-wave and early reflection time-domain optimiza- tion
• Early reflections from similar directions as the speaker are reduced by Di- rac Live®. These are the type of reflections that are known to cause smear- ing and shifting of the stereo image and reduced distinctness. The effects of side reflections are quite different. They give a certain coloration of the sound, but actually make it easier to localize and distinguish different sound events. Dirac Live® only reduces the stationary spectral coloration that such late reflections cause, but no attempt is made to remove them.
• Easy-to-use PC software room correction wizard
• Software suggests target frequency response based on the system mea- surements. A completely flat response is not always ideal.
• Adjustable target frequency response
• Adjustable cross-over settings
• Automatic delay and gain calibration
• Minimum of 9 measurement positions


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post #13 of 126 Old 10-17-2010, 09:36 AM
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Quote:


• 16 channels with 3 user-adjustable parametric filters for shaping
Subwoofer response.
• Adjustable from 20 to 200Hz, gain +/-6dB in 0.1dB steps
• Q range from 0.7 to 5.

This would be a serious limitation of the AP-20

Also ... what? No ramps/shelves?

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post #14 of 126 Old 10-17-2010, 02:48 PM
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What? That it does not go down to DC to accept the rotary woofer?


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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

What? That it does not go down to DC to accept the rotary woofer?

No control below 20 Hz?


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post #16 of 126 Old 10-17-2010, 02:53 PM
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If you open up the q maybe?


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post #17 of 126 Old 10-17-2010, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

If you open up the q maybe?

If you can and is that really the way you'd want to set this part of the freq response up??

What does this piece run??


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post #18 of 126 Old 10-17-2010, 03:21 PM
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$6,800+- not including the 4 microphone attachment.

The microphones to be used are Bruel and Kjaer.

They distribute DIRAC. When B abd K distribute Dirac it speaks volume of it's authenticity.

I had no clue, one can download the Dirac software in the Bruel and KJaer website:

http://www.bksv.com/ServiceCalibrati...on%20Copy.aspx


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post #19 of 126 Old 10-17-2010, 04:22 PM
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I think the only thing that goes (or went) down to 0DC was the SoundStream system (Telarc tells me they still have a working one hanging around)

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post #20 of 126 Old 10-18-2010, 04:11 AM
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This is an interesting (and I suspect it will become far more interesting) as time moves forward. So far we have Audyssey (and its variants), Trinnov (and its variants), Dirac Live, and QSC (I suppose the 322, 922 variants) in play.

The QSC doesn't really belong in this list. It is a pro piece. It requires external intelligence to use properly (ie, no collective wisdom or opinion of others embedded in the firmware). It has no "automagic" function. Let's look at what is in that piece:
Gain Control (input, output, in line)
Mixers (including multi channel and matrix) Automatic and manual
Routers
Delay
Meters (you can see in real time what's up)
Signal Generators (any step in the chain)
Limiters (multi types and user defined)
--single shelf, multi shelf, etc., etc.
Compressors (multiple types and user defined)
Dynamics
Noise Gates
Duckers
Automatic Gain Control
16 filter types (all filters can be with another filter)
Graphic EQ (predefined width or custom)
Crossovers (multiple types)
Macros
Up to 8 different "configurations against a single inventory of equipment.
...and the list goes on.
What is missing? The "I'll do it for you" button. In other words, if you're scratching your head about what any of those things may do in the QSC partial list, then you should take QSC off your list of potential toys. It's only fair to mention that some of these capabilities would not be required in your specific configuration.

The QSC will not fix a bad room, compensate for bad speaker positioning, make up for a blown tweeter or fix a nasty timbre mismatch. Oh, neither will Audyessy, Trinnov or Dirac. They will all make the room sound "different". In most cases, we hope "better".

So what about these other guys? Who is to know at this point? Until Audyessy, Trinnov, or Dirac all send their gear to a single team of experts to fully analyze and compare side by side in the same room with the same equipment all we'll have is a bunch of arm waving about "my time domain is better than your phase domain" yelling and screaming. (Phase and time are synonymous kids.) Or, my microphone is smart enough to do vector analysis and figure out where the speakers really are against my microphones will do spatial averaging over a large seating area. OK. Enough already.

Audyessy, Trinnov and Dirac all have brought something to the table that has been sorely needed for a long time. They have sent the message to consumers that audio calibration is important. It is needed in any room and every room. Love 'em for that. However, any automagic function will be very, very challenged to win against a pro pushing the buttons and twisting the dials. On the other hand, the automagic functions are a far cry above "setting levels and distances".

So, let's look at a few of these.

If you're budget constrained, any pre-pro with a built in Audyessy or Trinnov is the way to go. Which one will be better? Under any specific set of circumstances the future verbal wars will be tantamount to discussions over triple flash, autostereoscopic, active vs passive, 50,000:1 vs 60,000:1 on/off contrast, etc. Both Audyessy and Trinnov will allow an end user (with the keys to the domain and the "kit") to tweak the automagic results within the limits of the software. Thats a good thing. Audyessy/Trinnov (built-in) plus a pro is cheaper than QSC + a pro. (I'm leaving Dirac out of this for a moment ... I'll slap them around a bit later.)

A standalone Audyessy or Trinnov (plus a pro) is likely cost neutral when contrasted with QSC plus a pro; but, understand QSC doesn't have an automagic button so you cannot have "different sound" while you're waiting for the pro to show up. On the surface, both Audyessy and Trinnov will do a good job and it would appear Trinnov is going to leave the pro with more options, control, and capabilities than you'd find in the Audyessy. It's not clear to me, however, how well Trinnov will handle spatial averaging. Right now, today, I'd take a Trinnov before I'd take an Audyessy; but, remember, neither of these outfits has any interest in sending out their gear to let me and my team beat them up for a few days. Sorry, Curt, an online demo doesn't cut it. I'm not really buying into Richard's statement about gaining the same historical relevance as DTS, lossless multi-channel, Dolby Pro-Logic, THX-ReEQ, etc...but, I will buy him lunch if that happens.

Let's take a moment to look at what Dirac Live looks like. Well, lets not. It is not on my list of potential candidates. Why? From their literature (not hands on), it appears they have focused all their energy on the upper octaves leaving three less than fully capable filters for use below 200Hz. In small rooms, it the below 300Hz region that has the greater number of problems and issues to resolve. Very, very rarely (in a good room anyway) does one every really need to touch the upper octaves. They've also made some very suspect statements about early reflections and less than early reflections which would need some hands on before I'm willing to take a bite of that apple.

Now, if your intent is to have a high performance audio environment and you've gone to the trouble and expense to engage qualified outside assistance in getting that part of it right, AND, you intend to have a pro come in and perform the audio calibration, then use exactly the equipment they (the pro) tell you to use and get over it. These individuals (an Adam, Jim (Jamin), Keith, me) know exactly what we can get out of ABC and XYZ. MNO may really, really be good; but, unless you're willing to pay a pro $200 to $300 hr to learn on your dime, it's not a good choice. Further, each of these individuals are leaving their name and reputations in your room and taking on a new calibration processor isn't something they want to do on a customer site.

[After thought]
Trinnov and Audyessy do provide a capability not found in the QSC. That is the ability to synthetically create audio channels which do not exist in the original recording (aka ambience extraction processing). While the QSC will allow me to create (for example) a dedicated channel for height, it would not have the ability to derive what would appear to be height information, remove that information from a front/side channel and redirect it elsewhere. The value of doing that in a small room is questionable and for close mic'd recordings, of no value; but, to each, his own.

Dennis Erskine CFI, CFII, MEI
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Subject Matter Expert
Certified Home Theater Designer
CEDIA Board of Directors

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post #21 of 126 Old 10-18-2010, 05:33 AM
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Im loving me some Dennis.

Excellent post indeed, and should be food for thought for many.

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post #22 of 126 Old 10-18-2010, 07:57 AM
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Hi Dennis,

I don't have experience of the Dirac but I have used the Lake/Trinnov/Audyssey Pro systems and as I wrote above, it doesn't matter how clever you toolbox is if you don't know how to get the best from these things they are best left alone.

In the case of Trinnov you might want to ask Keith Yates for his feedback on the unit. He has them in several projects right now and the speed of setup was one of the major feedback points he gave me. In fairness it is 12 months since I had the chance to meet up with him so he may have gone another direction now!!!

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post #23 of 126 Old 10-18-2010, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

This is an interesting (and I suspect it will become far more interesting) as time moves forward. So far we have Audyssey (and its variants), Trinnov (and its variants), Dirac Live, and QSC (I suppose the 322, 922 variants) in play.

The QSC doesn't really belong in this list. It is a pro piece. It requires external intelligence to use properly (ie, no collective wisdom or opinion of others embedded in the firmware). It has no "automagic" function. Let's look at what is in that piece:
Gain Control (input, output, in line)
Mixers (including multi channel and matrix) Automatic and manual
Routers
Delay
Meters (you can see in real time what's up)
Signal Generators (any step in the chain)
Limiters (multi types and user defined)
--single shelf, multi shelf, etc., etc.
Compressors (multiple types and user defined)
Dynamics
Noise Gates
Duckers
Automatic Gain Control
16 filter types (all filters can be with another filter)
Graphic EQ (predefined width or custom)
Crossovers (multiple types)
Macros
Up to 8 different "configurations against a single inventory of equipment.
...and the list goes on.
What is missing? The "I'll do it for you" button. In other words, if you're scratching your head about what any of those things may do in the QSC partial list, then you should take QSC off your list of potential toys. It's only fair to mention that some of these capabilities would not be required in your specific configuration.

The QSC will not fix a bad room, compensate for bad speaker positioning, make up for a blown tweeter or fix a nasty timbre mismatch. Oh, neither will Audyessy, Trinnov or Dirac. They will all make the room sound "different". In most cases, we hope "better".

So what about these other guys? Who is to know at this point? Until Audyessy, Trinnov, or Dirac all send their gear to a single team of experts to fully analyze and compare side by side in the same room with the same equipment all we'll have is a bunch of arm waving about "my time domain is better than your phase domain" yelling and screaming. (Phase and time are synonymous kids.) Or, my microphone is smart enough to do vector analysis and figure out where the speakers really are against my microphones will do spatial averaging over a large seating area. OK. Enough already.

Audyessy, Trinnov and Dirac all have brought something to the table that has been sorely needed for a long time. They have sent the message to consumers that audio calibration is important. It is needed in any room and every room. Love 'em for that. However, any automagic function will be very, very challenged to win against a pro pushing the buttons and twisting the dials. On the other hand, the automagic functions are a far cry above "setting levels and distances".

So, let's look at a few of these.

If you're budget constrained, any pre-pro with a built in Audyessy or Trinnov is the way to go. Which one will be better? Under any specific set of circumstances the future verbal wars will be tantamount to discussions over triple flash, autostereoscopic, active vs passive, 50,000:1 vs 60,000:1 on/off contrast, etc. Both Audyessy and Trinnov will allow an end user (with the keys to the domain and the "kit") to tweak the automagic results within the limits of the software. Thats a good thing. Audyessy/Trinnov (built-in) plus a pro is cheaper than QSC + a pro. (I'm leaving Dirac out of this for a moment ... I'll slap them around a bit later.)

A standalone Audyessy or Trinnov (plus a pro) is likely cost neutral when contrasted with QSC plus a pro; but, understand QSC doesn't have an automagic button so you cannot have "different sound" while you're waiting for the pro to show up. On the surface, both Audyessy and Trinnov will do a good job and it would appear Trinnov is going to leave the pro with more options, control, and capabilities than you'd find in the Audyessy. It's not clear to me, however, how well Trinnov will handle spatial averaging. Right now, today, I'd take a Trinnov before I'd take an Audyessy; but, remember, neither of these outfits has any interest in sending out their gear to let me and my team beat them up for a few days. Sorry, Curt, an online demo doesn't cut it. I'm not really buying into Richard's statement about gaining the same historical relevance as DTS, lossless multi-channel, Dolby Pro-Logic, THX-ReEQ, etc...but, I will buy him lunch if that happens.

Let's take a moment to look at what Dirac Live looks like. Well, lets not. It is not on my list of potential candidates. Why? From their literature (not hands on), it appears they have focused all their energy on the upper octaves leaving three less than fully capable filters for use below 200Hz. In small rooms, it the below 300Hz region that has the greater number of problems and issues to resolve. Very, very rarely (in a good room anyway) does one every really need to touch the upper octaves. They've also made some very suspect statements about early reflections and less than early reflections which would need some hands on before I'm willing to take a bite of that apple.

Now, if your intent is to have a high performance audio environment and you've gone to the trouble and expense to engage qualified outside assistance in getting that part of it right, AND, you intend to have a pro come in and perform the audio calibration, then use exactly the equipment they (the pro) tell you to use and get over it. These individuals (an Adam, Jim (Jamin), Keith, me) know exactly what we can get out of ABC and XYZ. MNO may really, really be good; but, unless you're willing to pay a pro $200 to $300 hr to learn on your dime, it's not a good choice. Further, each of these individuals are leaving their name and reputations in your room and taking on a new calibration processor isn't something they want to do on a customer site.

[After thought]
Trinnov and Audyessy do provide a capability not found in the QSC. That is the ability to synthetically create audio channels which do not exist in the original recording (aka ambience extraction processing). While the QSC will allow me to create (for example) a dedicated channel for height, it would not have the ability to derive what would appear to be height information, remove that information from a front/side channel and redirect it elsewhere. The value of doing that in a small room is questionable and for close mic'd recordings, of no value; but, to each, his own.

Dennis:

Much appreciated and most definitely food from thought...

Thanks.

Joel
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post #24 of 126 Old 10-18-2010, 09:33 AM
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Neil ... thanks.

I've used Audyssey Pro and Lake as well. On the other hand, I don't really care what Keith is using other than it is interesting to note he is using them. What matters, in my case, is I have not. I am not going to let a client be a beta site (for me) and until I know exactly what it does, how it does it, and if it supports differential EQ, it won't be in my tool kit. I DO know what they (the manufacturer) claims it does after passing over the marketing fluff. Speed of set up is not the issue. Quality of the resultant sound field is.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

Speed of set up is not the issue. Quality of the resultant sound field is.

Truer words -- at least for me -- were never spoken because for me it is not about the ease of setup [that will be Dennis' issue] but rather the resulting sound quality...

That is, at the price point that I am at I am prepared to sacrifice ease of setup, flavour of the day, etc. for the best sound quality that is within budget...

That is not to say that I would not like to compare / own / try a Trinnov unit but rather that I trust those whose advice I am paying for and am moving forwardwith that advice...there is an interesting corollary here, to do otherwise [that is not take and trust the advice that one is paying for] begs the issue, why are you still engaging and paying that person?

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I saw the Trinnov can do a lot of stuff 'automagically' but as I talked to Curt and Mark Seaton who was at CEDIA with me in the ADA booth, it is all about defining the parameters before you set it and forget it. Sure a novice like me could get somewhere with it but when Mark went through the set up options / parameters with Curt, I could see it was time for me to go get a drink and sit down. Great discussion. I have been very happy with my QSCs. Great stuff abounds us in room correction.


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post #27 of 126 Old 10-18-2010, 12:41 PM
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That is, at the price point that I am at I am prepared to sacrifice ease of setup, flavour of the day, etc. for the best sound quality that is within budget...

That sounds at odds with itself; at $200-300/hr, speed of setup may have a big impact on the results for a given budget.

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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I saw the Trinnov can do a lot of stuff 'automagically' but as I talked to Curt and Mark Seaton who was at CEDIA with me in the ADA booth, it is all about defining the parameters before you set it and forget it.

What were the parameters?

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Jeff,

how would you describe the difference the TEQ-12 made during the CEDIA demo?

You're using Seaton Catalysts. They have an internal DSP. Can that dsp be fully bypassed or is it a separate from the amps and need to be removed?

How could this work with the Catalysts?

Or are the dsps for the drivers crossovers and not for room correction?


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post #29 of 126 Old 10-19-2010, 04:34 AM
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Typically, the DSPs you find in speakers are for such items as crossovers, boundary compensation, etc and not for room correction.

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Thanks Dennis I figured as much but with Mark, I couldn't be sure as he I'd a big believer in room correction.


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