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post #91 of 519 Old 10-23-2010, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Just so I'm clear on what you mean by "source direct". You are a looking for a HTPC solution that will decode ANY source material without video pre\\post processing and output the source material color space (i.e. RGB 4:4:4m YCbCr 4:4:4, YCbCr 4:2:2, YUV 4:2:0, YUV 4:1:1, etc...) and resolution?

Well, to be explicit, My priorities are in this order:

1. Any 1080 (Blu Ray content only) is output as sourced. No color space (RGB 4:4:4m YCbCr 4:4:4, YCbCr 4:2:2) conversions, no frame rate conversions (24p, 60i), no deinterlacing.

2. Any 480i content is handled similarly (SD DVD)

3. As I don't have much confidence in the encoding quality of much of anythign else I can think of (video downloads, odd ball resolutions, etc.), I'm not worried about what the GPU and software does to/for them.

I want pristene transport of the BR content. HD-SDI out would be the icing on the cake. That said, I don't suppose there's a commercial PC based HD-SDI card that would do that? As I understand it, except for BR ISO's (not sure there) the HDCP is stripped during the ripping process so maybe that would be a workaround. HD-SDI->HDMI converters without munging the video into upstream high end VPs (that don't have HD-SDI already) are available.

If I can have pristene BlueRay that would be the main heavy hitter. After that SD-DVD (480i) without color conversion and deinterlacing would be #2 on the list.
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post #92 of 519 Old 10-23-2010, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
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This may be getting technical for this particular forum, but I promise, if we run it to ground and find a solution, I'll summarize it. So please let's trudge on.

One interesting thing about all this is it may bring to light what the off the shelf options are (not) doing to our video, too.
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post #93 of 519 Old 10-23-2010, 02:39 PM - Thread Starter
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These are designed for Video editors. Hopefully not showing too much ignorance on the PC hardware side of things, wonder if something like this would work/help:
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/pro...linkhdextreme/
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/pro...ink/techspecs/

Happy to get one for a PC guru at dealer cost if they wanted to try it...
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post #94 of 519 Old 10-23-2010, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post

I think Intel claims this will be corrected with Sandy Bridge but we'll see..


Could you give a link?

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post #95 of 519 Old 10-23-2010, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

1. Any 1080 (Blu Ray content only) is output as sourced. No color space (RGB 4:4:4m YCbCr 4:4:4, YCbCr 4:2:2) conversions, no frame rate conversions (24p, 60i), no deinterlacing.

2. Any 480i content is handled similarly (SD DVD)

You start the thread out by mentioning the Kaleidescape systems.

Are you sure that they actually handle playback this way?

My Movies - Movie Indexing application for Windows, Mac, iPhone, iPad and Android: http://www.mymovies.dk
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post #96 of 519 Old 10-23-2010, 02:56 PM
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It looks like a few of us are on the same path. With respect to the Vidabox product it its MyMovies with some custom hardware and a few stickers. What I do like about the Vidabox solution is the iPad integration. The thin client is simply a zotac unit:

http://www.zotacusa.com/zotac-mag-hd-nd01.html

I already tested the MyMovies out, but am torn what to use in the HT Room as an "agent". My concern too is the video and audio quality produced for HT setup. In the rest of the house that plays on the plasma/LCD screen not too fussed.
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post #97 of 519 Old 10-23-2010, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Interleave View Post

What I do like about the Vidabox solution is the iPad integration.

Their iPad PoE distribution is top-notch and makes for a incredible HA interface throughout a home. Sadly it is locked down to Vidabox servers

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The thin client is simply a zotac unit:

http://www.zotacusa.com/zotac-mag-hd-nd01.html

While I really do like the ND01 (I'll have a review published next month on it) the ION2 has its faults\\limitations. For the price a great little system though.

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post #98 of 519 Old 10-23-2010, 03:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Binnerup View Post

You start the thread out by mentioning the Kaleidescape systems.

Are you sure that they actually handle playback this way?

Brian: No, I did not mean to imply they did. The reason for mentioning it, is a lot of my friends here have embedded K installations and have liked the ssytem. I wanted to pre-empt any "just use K" replies since that's not the road I wanted to go down for reasons stated later in the thread.

I'm sure I asked them at CEDIA, but as I can't remember squat these days, don't remember what they said. I'm takign a notebook with me next year . I don't think it does, either.
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post #99 of 519 Old 10-23-2010, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

1. Any 1080 (Blu Ray content only) is output as sourced. No color space (RGB 4:4:4m YCbCr 4:4:4, YCbCr 4:2:2) conversions, no frame rate conversions (24p, 60i), no deinterlacing.

The material resolution and frame rate is relatively easy to achieve. AnyDVD HD offers automatic display rate adjustments assuming the GPU supports it. The functionality will work with most HTPC front-ends if ISOs are used.

The color space purity is harder to achieve. Even the GPUs that support will do some conversion and it is hard to distinguish between straight YCbCr and YCbCr -> RGB -> YCbCr. I emailed a contact at NDIVIA and ATI to see if they could provide a clear list. No hopes on getting a clear response though. As mentioned, Intel is out of the question until Sandy Bridge is released.

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Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

2. Any 480i content is handled similarly (SD DVD)

Most of what applies to Blu-ray content also applies here with the exception of alternative high quality video renderers being available. Each has their own limitations though. I believe the closest that meets your requirements is MPC-HC + madVR but it does do YCbCr -> RGB. madVR is a relatively new renderer so it still has quite a few limitations (limited menu support, no subtitles, ...)

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post #100 of 519 Old 10-23-2010, 03:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikinho View Post

Most of what applies to Blu-ray content also applies here with the exception of alternative high quality video renderers being available. Each has their own limitations though. I believe the closest that meets your requirements is MPC-HC + madVR but it does do YCbCr -> RGB. madVR is a relatively new renderer so it still has quite a few limitations (limited menu support, no subtitles, ...)

re the YCbCr -> RGB, I thought HDMI was YCbCr by definition. So it would be YCbCr -> RGB->YCbCr, right? I thought DVI did RGB but not HDMI. I ran into that issue when I was looking at HD-SDI to HDMI converters. Been a while though.

As for MPC-HC + madVR, I like open source that's stable, but I don't want to end up with a system that will barf with a crowd at the house, or be too rough around the edges. No patience to be on the bleeding edge if I can help it. I can't remember the last time I watched anything with subtitles so I'm OK there, but I would like the menu support for chapter selection.

The marketability of the Vidabox system is it's apparently just a preconfigured install of canned, stable hard and soft components. Just doesn't quite do what I want or I'd save myself all this pain.

I must say from a semi-laymens skim of that Blackmagic card, things like balanced XLR audio outputs, etc. sure look good. If that puppy would plug in and work with the BR playback software, we would be cooking!

I sent you a PM re that topic....
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post #101 of 519 Old 10-23-2010, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

Well, to be explicit, My priorities are in this order:

1. Any 1080 (Blu Ray content only) is output as sourced. No color space (RGB 4:4:4m YCbCr 4:4:4, YCbCr 4:2:2) conversions, no frame rate conversions (24p, 60i), no deinterlacing.

2. Any 480i content is handled similarly (SD DVD)

3. As I don't have much confidence in the encoding quality of much of anythign else I can think of (video downloads, odd ball resolutions, etc.), I'm not worried about what the GPU and software does to/for them.

I want pristene transport of the BR content. HD-SDI out would be the icing on the cake. That said, I don't suppose there's a commercial PC based HD-SDI card that would do that? As I understand it, except for BR ISO's (not sure there) the HDCP is stripped during the ripping process so maybe that would be a workaround. HD-SDI->HDMI converters without munging the video into upstream high end VPs (that don't have HD-SDI already) are available.

If I can have pristene BlueRay that would be the main heavy hitter. After that SD-DVD (480i) without color conversion and deinterlacing would be #2 on the list.

TBH, I don't think you can meet these requirements with a PC. AFAIK the playback frameworks aren't flexible enough to enable this scenario.

As long as the conversion b/w YCbCr and RGB is done right shouldn't it be lossless? Or is the concern that it might not be done right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikinho View Post

The material resolution and frame rate is relatively easy to achieve. AnyDVD HD offers automatic display rate adjustments assuming the GPU supports it. The functionality will work with most HTPC front-ends if ISOs are used.

Do you mean ReClock? I didn't know AnyDVD HD could do that.

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Originally Posted by mikinho View Post

As mentioned, Intel is out of the question until Sandy Bridge is released.

Has Intel commented on YCbCr support (or 24p) in SandyBridge?
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post #102 of 519 Old 10-23-2010, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

re the YCbCr -> RGB, I thought HDMI was YCbCr by definition. So it would be YCbCr -> RGB->YCbCr, right? I thought DVI did RGB but not HDMI. I ran into that issue when I was looking at HD-SDI to HDMI converters. Been a while though.

HDMI can handle YCbCr, RGB Full, and RGB limited; pretty sure DVI only does RGB.
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post #103 of 519 Old 10-23-2010, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by babgvant View Post

Do you mean ReClock? I didn't know AnyDVD HD could do that.

No I mean AnyDVD HD. It is under Program Settings -> External Program. If you enable that option you have the ability to launch specific external application per media type (DVD NTSC, DVD PAL, Blu-ray, HD-DVD, ...). It defaults to SetDisplayFrequency w/ the corresponding frame rate.

Of course this only works w/ disc or ISOs (when mounted). I stated "if ISO are used" but I should have clarified that as a prereq. Like you mentioned there are other software solutions, like your own DTBAddin.

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post #104 of 519 Old 10-23-2010, 06:05 PM
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Once Verizon increases bandwidth, I look forward to streaming media from the cloud, controling it easily with a smart phone or pad, while still being able to access stored content on my network. I don't think we'll have to wait too long to be able to do this. I might buy a nice DAC and a Bridge in the meantime.
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post #105 of 519 Old 10-23-2010, 06:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by babgvant View Post

As long as the conversion b/w YCbCr and RGB is done right shouldn't it be lossless? Or is the concern that it might not be done right?

No, the conversion formulas introduce rounding errors. They did in Rec 601 anyway. Almost positive they woudl in HD too. Had to deal with that when I made my popular calibration DVD a few years back. RGB->YCbCr->RGB the end does not equal the start. Off a little but it's off.

As for cloud streaming, I'll take the Disc (rip). Who knows how many lossy conversions and munging the original will go through before it gets to you then.
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post #106 of 519 Old 10-23-2010, 06:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babgvant View Post

HDMI can handle YCbCr, RGB Full, and RGB limited; pretty sure DVI only does RGB.

Noted, thank you. I guess I had that wrong when I was looking at SDI-HDMI converters. The SDI stream is YCbCr (I am pretty sure) and thus the output of that topology converter was YCbCr only.

Love SDI.
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post #107 of 519 Old 10-23-2010, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikinho View Post

No I mean AnyDVD HD. It is under Program Settings -> External Program. If you enable that option you have the ability to launch specific external application per media type (DVD NTSC, DVD PAL, Blu-ray, HD-DVD, ...). It defaults to SetDisplayFrequency w/ the corresponding frame rate.

Thanks. Very cool, I'll have to check that out.
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post #108 of 519 Old 10-23-2010, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by babgvant View Post

Thanks. Very cool, I'll have to check that out

It isn't perfect, it just assumes Blu-ray content is 24p instead of inspecting for 24p versus 23.976p but still easy to setup and useful.

I've got quite a few PAL DVDs so it has come in useful w/ Reclock. (Btw, James added madVR support in Reclock very quickly, was happy about that)

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post #109 of 519 Old 10-23-2010, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikinho View Post

It isn't perfect, it just assumes Blu-ray content is 24p instead of inspecting for 24p versus 23.976p but still easy to setup and useful.

Hmm... that limits usefulness, although I guess you could just target 23 and manually correct for the one-offs.

I've been trying to get Jeff to add native rate/res matching to SageTV (my plugin doesn't work when FSE is enabled), so hopefully that will be option in the future as well.
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post #110 of 519 Old 10-23-2010, 07:45 PM
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I just realized that this was in the "Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+)" forum.

That definitely expands the available options. For example the NVIDIA Quadro 6000 (~$3,000-$9,000) offers HD SDI.

The downside is that you'll still need a separate HD Audio bitstreaming card but if you are looking to spend $20,000+ then I don't think that is a concern.

It is also limited to HDMI 1.3a so it has a max 30-bit color (10-bit per each red, green, blue channel). I don't know any content that is 32-bit color. HDMI 1.4a also adds a few additional color spaces that the card won't support. Again, no content uses it yet that I know of. For 10-bit internal display processing Aero needs to be displayed as well.

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post #111 of 519 Old 10-23-2010, 08:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Hang on there boys, no carte blanche on the solution . I'm looking for a solution to compliment my >20k PJ, not a 20k client . Not a shoestring budget as Peter said, but not looking to pass Kalidescape either. Or Mozex for that matter. Keep it <= Vidabox range.

But, if HD SDI works, converting that back to HDMI for normal VP usage should be doable without too much adieu. Lets find the most economical HD-SDI card that works, again, if that's what it takes.

But in any case, we still have the software player limitations right? If it can do normal Blu-ray, rec 709 at 10 bit most of us would be happy for now. I can definately live without HDMI 1.4a, for now.
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post #112 of 519 Old 10-23-2010, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

But in any case, we still have the software player limitations right? If it can do normal Blu-ray, rec 709 at 10 bit most of us would be happy for now.

Where does the requirement for 10 bit come from? There is no consumer format that is > 8 bits. And none that go beyond 4:2:0 either. So if your player is outputting 4:2:2 YCrCb, it is already doing format conversion.

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post #113 of 519 Old 10-24-2010, 06:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

But in any case, we still have the software player limitations right? If it can do normal Blu-ray, rec 709 at 10 bit most of us would be happy for now. I can definately live without HDMI 1.4a, for now.

You will be limited by the software, but it's possible that Nvidia handles YCbCr samples differently than the others during playback.

One thing that should be noted however, is that currently Nvidia has the lowest PQ (as measured with HQV-HD) and their HDMI 1.3 driver is still very young.
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post #114 of 519 Old 10-24-2010, 08:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Where does the requirement for 10 bit come from? There is no consumer format that is > 8 bits. And none that go beyond 4:2:0 either. So if your player is outputting 4:2:2 YCrCb, it is already doing format conversion.

OK. Then 8 bit at 4:2:0 is good. Still surprises me that it's so damn difficult to get the thing(s) to spit out what it's reading (whatever that might be) for upstream processing
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post #115 of 519 Old 10-24-2010, 06:03 PM
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What does PopCorn Hour offer? A lot DIYers use that solution.

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post #116 of 519 Old 10-24-2010, 06:18 PM - Thread Starter
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PCH C200 => No SourceDirect (SD). I'm registering on their forum, too to plug in a request for it. Someone else there is already campaining:
http://www.networkedmediatank.com/sh...=Source+direct
Feel free to jump in.

The Sage 300 appears to do Source Direct. If so, the only thing it doesn't do that I prefer is BR menu support. Thsi withthe stipulation that it's in client (extender) mode, which is what I want anyway.

I'd take SD over menu support. Not ahppily, but the better of evils for me, in the theater anyway. Might miss an alternate endign, or extra feature, btu I dont' usually watch those anyway.

It's also apparently not as friendly to interface with MyMovies, but it's supported. I think. Again, presuming similar to the Dune, not as robustly as a PC client.

Still need that SD PC client...But without a $4k video card
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post #117 of 519 Old 10-24-2010, 07:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Also looked at the Netgear Neo550. Went to their forum and had a poor experience there. Basically told if I didn't have one where I could open a support ticket, I would be wasting my time. So I didn't.
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post #118 of 519 Old 10-24-2010, 07:16 PM
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what about vision 3D from asrock ? it does a lot of things for 1k

and i think you might find appealing this one

http://www.hfx.at/
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post #119 of 519 Old 10-24-2010, 07:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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what about vision 3D from asrock ? it does a lot of things for 1k

Fluffy website, not much meat. Don't see anythign there that indicates what the unit will do as far as Source Direct goes. Just looks like another preconfigured small form factor Windows PC to me.

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and i think you might find appealing this one
http://www.hfx.at/

No, don't see much there but everyday HTPCs, either.

Something particular about those you thought would meet the original objectives of the thread? Sorry if I missed it. I'd love to be wrong here.
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post #120 of 519 Old 10-24-2010, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
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Also looked at the Netgear Neo550. Went to their forum and had a poor experience there. Basically told if I didn't have one where I could open a support ticket, I would be wasting my time. So I didn't.

FWIW, I have a HD300 and given your requirements it plus a standalone BD player would meet your needs. The main drawback is that the UI in standalone mode is decent, but not that appealing. If you're willing to setup a SageTV server then the stock UI is very good, and there are some addins that bring it up a couple (note that the UI on the HD300 isn't quite as fluid or fast because it's not as fast a PC, but the gist is the same) notches as well.
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