Ditched my Meridian 861 V6 for ADA mach IV - Page 8 - AVS Forum
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post #211 of 235 Old 12-15-2010, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Health Nut View Post

I disagree with your no brainer statement assuming excellent subwoofers are used in a proper configuration. I use stereo subwoofers (861 V6) on the side walls (one of the highly recommended configuration for room mode response). Whether I used five 20T or seven 20T or simply 3 across the front, I would set them all to small in my setup and use a 50 Hz crossover point. I see no reason not to. I'm not sure what subwoofers he utilizes though, but assuming they are very good, that is what I would do. There is no reason not to use a low crossover on the 20T. Those woofers are a joke compared to what subwoofers can do in terms of handling the extreme bass. You can experiment with 40, 45, 50 Hz and select a low crossover. No reason to have the 20T reproduce the lowest octaves at significant dB. They will produce plenty of low bass as it is when crossed at 40 or 50 Hz.

Thanks Health nut. Your suggestion is definitely worth trying (experimenting with cross overs is cheap and easy). Certainly worth experimenting well below 80hz that Ken currently uses across the board.

Curious are you running your 861v6 as 5.3 to get the Stereo Side Subs? Or did you do your own crossover on a channel set as Large? I assume they are running off a single channel.
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post #212 of 235 Old 12-15-2010, 07:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Soccerdude View Post

Some people are runaway BASS freaks, there's all to it.

You need to read the posts better. The ADA is better in every aspect. There is so much more detail than the Meridian piece.

You really need to ask yourself this question: Why would he take an enormous financial hit if the piece wasn't so much better?

I know, I know, the Meridian was broken, or setup wrong, or this is a parallel universe where the QSC put out 192khz but only measured 48khz to the people that don't know the secret handshake.

Jeff and Joel, you are sworn to secrecy. Don't forget!
Ken
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post #213 of 235 Old 12-15-2010, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ken6217 View Post

Jeff and Joel, you are sworn to secrecy. Don't forget!

Ken

Done!

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post #214 of 235 Old 12-15-2010, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by ken6217 View Post

I guess no wants wants to believe that ADA is a good piece. Everyone is looking for some other answer.
Ken

I gave you two choices, one of which indicated ADA is better designed than Meridian. You complain and then give me that answer .

For your answer to be true, you must show there is no other factor involved. It took someone else to explain to us what you were doing. I am trying to give you a chance to do the same this go around. If you are not willing, we can let it go and not believe you. Choice is yours .

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post #215 of 235 Old 12-15-2010, 09:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I gave you two choices, one of which indicated ADA is better designed than Meridian. You complain and then give me that answer .

For your answer to be true, you must show there is no other factor involved. It took someone else to explain to us what you were doing. I am trying to give you a chance to do the same this go around. If you are not willing, we can let it go and not believe you. Choice is yours .

Oh. Sorry. The thread has gotten so crazy that my patience has grown short.

I did not make any changes to the QSC. I set the speakers to small on the ADA, turned on the test tone, set the subs to 75 hz and that was it.
Ken
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post #216 of 235 Old 12-15-2010, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Soccerdude View Post

Some people are runaway BASS freaks, there's all to it.

I have to admit I think some of that is going on here.
And plenty of folks willing to sell it to them.

There is only 20-20Khz on each main channel.

If you have a reasonably good full range speaker why is it suddenly not good for anything below 80Hz but perfectly fine above. Why even put a good full range speakers in the front, small dipoles in the back then treat them all the same? Not mention the wattage that's probably behind them. Gosh I never seen such a waste of hardware. 861v6 resampled at 48Khz and 20T's driven by Mark Levinson 436 monoblocks crossed over at 80hz.

I understand it may not be optimally placed and use subs to fill in etc. is all fine. But why does this range need such disproportionate SPL substitution on the main channels.

The real low stuff is on the LFE channel any way.
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post #217 of 235 Old 12-15-2010, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ken6217 View Post

Oh. Sorry. The thread has gotten so crazy that my patience has grown short.

I did not make any changes to the QSC. I set the speakers to small on the ADA, turned on the test tone, set the subs to 75 hz and that was it.
Ken

The filter slopes on the ADA may be different than those of the Meridian, resulting in different sound quality, i.e. tubbiness, etc.

Lee

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post #218 of 235 Old 12-16-2010, 05:39 AM
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The ADA is better in every aspect. There is so much more detail than the Meridian piece.
That alone would make me personally wonder, wonder so much, that I would rip everything apart, if it would be my set up and perform a double check on pure stereo sources without room eq, etc., because if that difference is so great in all respects, it should be there in pure stereo as well, or it its more likely a simple set up issue in this complex eq-ed hardware chain. I would try out everything first, before I would chose such a provocative header of this thread, that can only lead to such a discussion and disbelief. Alot that was said by professionals like D.E. on room accoustics and the importance in scale vs. sampling rates is so true. There is actually some useful content in this thread

Cheers, Andreas
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post #219 of 235 Old 12-16-2010, 05:51 AM
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I don't know. It is hard to get past the 'because it costs more, it is better' narrow thinking mantra, but sometimes a manufacturer just gets it right. This is a new state of the art design incorporating the lasted technology. I can tell you it is a excellent sounding processor. I'm sure far better than the upcoming Theta with it's old DACs, design, etc. Or any other upgraded processor based on an old design (or old box).


Most of us here [fortunately] can buy whatever we want as this stuff is far cheaper than cars, vacations, etc and many are finding the ADA is plain old excellent regardless of it's modest price.

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post #220 of 235 Old 12-16-2010, 06:10 AM
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but sometimes a manufacturer just gets it right

That can be true. However in high end terms people usually talk about more air in bass, maybe speed and timing, etc, real triffles that can almost be ignored, where professionals usualy talk about the pure transparency of a signal (low pass, amplitude). When someone hears "more details" in bass, then it appears to be bound to pure amplitude than to pure high end fidelity of the bass comming from a processors RCAs....We are rather talking then about eq here, differences comminig from some place, unless certain given facts where changed in parallel, either not remembered/disclosed. It makes it really hard to believe that ADA throws out "something more" the Meridian does leave behind from the pure signal form at the processors outlets. Unless as said eq was/setting were fiddled with somehere in the chain in parallel or was refrehed accentially/shut off or whatever.

Pesonally I would have rather expected with the secondary eq in place that Ken cannot hear any difference between the Meridian and ADA. That I would have found almost more human and logical than anything else written

Cheers, Andreas
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post #221 of 235 Old 12-16-2010, 06:13 AM
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The arguments in this thread are becoming circular - and repetitive. As I see it:

1. Ken prefers the ADA. So be it. Perhaps there are setup inconsistencies, perhaps there is something wrong with his 861, perhaps our sun will go supernova on Tuesday and none of this will mater.

2. We all have our prefernces, and listen for different things. The areas that Ken found defficient in the 861v6 are not consistent with my experience, but different people will make different choces. Not having heard the ADA, however, I can make no comparatvie comments.

3. I think it is perfectly reasonable to attempt to 'explain' Ken's experiences because there is always the chance that something is amiss - and because it helps people to make informed, future purchases. But there is an equal, if not greater, chance that it is about preference and the perception of what is better.

4. For me personally, I have never heard dramatic differences between competently designed, properly functioning hiend components. Differences, sure, but always subtle and nuanced. So, see point #3.

Simon

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post #222 of 235 Old 12-16-2010, 07:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Andreas View Post

That alone would make me personally wonder, wonder so much, that I would rip everything apart, if it would be my set up and perform a double check on pure stereo sources without room eq, etc., because if that difference is so great in all respects, it should be there in pure stereo as well, or it its more likely a simple set up issue in this complex eq-ed hardware chain. I would try out everything first, before I would chose such a provocative header of this thread, that can only lead to such a discussion and disbelief. Alot that was said by professionals like D.E. on room accoustics and the importance in scale vs. sampling rates is so true. There is actually some useful content in this thread

You guys need to read better. I said it was better for music as well as movies.
For the impaired: Music = Stereo

It's funny that you think that I need to take things apart and investigate why my system sounds good. It's great and I'm happy. What's funnier is that no one can accept the fact that the ADA sounds great. What's even funnier than that is that it is better than the overpriced $30k worth of Meridian gear even while the ADA is on crutches since it is being degraded by the QSC (as per some people). Now that's funny!
Ken
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post #223 of 235 Old 12-16-2010, 07:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ca1ore View Post

The arguments in this thread are becoming circular - and repetitive. As I see it:

1. Ken prefers the ADA. So be it. Perhaps there are setup inconsistencies, perhaps there is something wrong with his 861, perhaps our sun will go supernova on Tuesday and none of this will mater.

2. We all have our prefernces, and listen for different things. The areas that Ken found defficient in the 861v6 are not consistent with my experience, but different people will make different choces. Not having heard the ADA, however, I can make no comparatvie comments.

3. I think it is perfectly reasonable to attempt to 'explain' Ken's experiences because there is always the chance that something is amiss - and because it helps people to make informed, future purchases. But there is an equal, if not greater, chance that it is about preference and the perception of what is better.

4. For me personally, I have never heard dramatic differences between competently designed, properly functioning hiend components. Differences, sure, but always subtle and nuanced. So, see point #3.

Simon

Don't try reason. It doesn't work here.
Ken
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post #224 of 235 Old 12-16-2010, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Andreas View Post

That alone would make me personally wonder, wonder so much, that I would rip everything apart, if it would be my set up and perform a double check on pure stereo sources without room eq, etc., because if that difference is so great in all respects, it should be there in pure stereo as well, or it its more likely a simple set up issue in this complex eq-ed hardware chain. I would try out everything first, before I would chose such a provocative header of this thread, that can only lead to such a discussion and disbelief. Alot that was said by professionals like D.E. on room accoustics and the importance in scale vs. sampling rates is so true. There is actually some useful content in this thread

Ahhh, there is a breath of sanity !!!

That's EXACTLY what I would do and have done. In fact that's how I test Meridian Preamps. Since they are Digital in and Digital out (with DSP Speakers) I bypass the Preamp too, to get a base line. When I put the preamp, in and in Stereo, it should should the same.

Then work your way up, step by step. So you understand what the heck is doing what at every step.

Run both in DIRECT Stereo and compare Apples to Apples.

Oh Ken, by that way, that means taking that QSC OUT of the loop.

I also do this to get the mains placed as best I can (toeing, distance from walls etc.). You want them running great just as a pair and not let the other speakers do all the imaging.

It should sound three dimensional with just the two speakers.

I suspect it will sound great on both.

Fantastic idea, and easy.

Also when comparing systems you need to calibrate the level of the Music or Movie you are listening too. That doesn't mean calibrate speakers to 75 Ken. That means measure the actual song or movie you are listening too and make sure you listen to again at the same level.
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post #225 of 235 Old 12-16-2010, 07:57 AM
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I next put some two channel music and felt the same way here as I did for movies. Better bass and more detail.

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You guys need to read better. I said it was better for music as well as movies. For the impaired: Music = Stereo

I can read and I'm willing to learn, and I surf rather on the the technical pure side of home theater life than just my "blind ears" (just to explain my believes, so if you would have provided measurments I would be much happier). Sorry, Music was not the point, the point was to check it to full purest detail what is happening, and even to tear down the chain to the simple processors without any eq, to varify before I shout. And your one sentence on Music does not reveal what you enganged and what not for Music. IMHO such "clear" differences as you said must have been there in a "pure signal" comparison as well, otherwise it is more likely a setting issue. Pls reread what I suggested.

It is up to you to support your own purchase on whatever you feel is best, it is just as I said, in that "fashion", I would not yell out loud, something to be conclusive, with almost no proof and rather alot of questions on settings in your hands, as it seems far, far away from a real technical explaination. I'm not here to defend Meridian, although I still run two M processors to explain my bias (yes, I'm biased like every owner, you cannot prevent it, it is human). I would love to see more "real evidence" and I do not see that and I do no think we will get it.

Cheers, Andreas
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post #226 of 235 Old 12-16-2010, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

I wouldn't be surprised if there were some differences in exact distance and level settings between the two processors, but we don't know for sure, and Ken probably doesn't either. I don't see any reason for anyone to doubt the change Ken perceived. It could be related to the horrible (IMNSHO) setup process of the Meridian, but if ADA gave Ken something easier to get right, kudos to them.

Well you may not realize but Ken disabled Room Correction in the Meridian and ADA and uses the Room EQ in the QSC.

If I use Ken's logic and trust Ken's opinion, my conclusion from his post is that Seaton subs are not compatible with Meridian. Because most Meridian owners are well aware of what Meridian boxes are capable of. If that's how you wish to leave it, that's fine with me.
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post #227 of 235 Old 12-16-2010, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by ken6217 View Post

Don't try reason. It doesn't work here.
Ken

In the spirit of logical reasoning here is a thought.

You use your SSP for D/A conversion and bass management, and a QSC 322 for Room EQ. The QSC was initially calibrated with the 861v4, yielding big sonic dividends.

You then replaced the v4 with a v6 and was disappointed. If there are differences in crossover filtering between the v6 and v4, resulting in different low frequency output curve between the v6 and v4. this could be explain why there was little improvement - the QSC may have not been correctly calibrated with the v6.

You then replaced the v6 with the ADA and was delighted. This was not apples to apples, because bass management in the ADA and v6 is different so you are feeding the QSC a different low frequency response curve with the ADA than with the v6. The QSC is surely incorrectly calibrated for the ADA.

Logically, one would conclude that most likely, with proper calibration the QSC / ADA combo can only get better, further widening the performance gap (as perceived by Ken) with the QSC / v6.

Am I missing something?
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post #228 of 235 Old 12-16-2010, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mswlogo View Post

Well you may not realize but Ken disabled Room Correction in the Meridian and ADA and uses the Room EQ in the QSC.

If I use Ken's logic and trust Ken's opinion, my conclusion from his post is that Seaton subs are not compatible with Meridian. Because most Meridian owners are well aware of what Meridian boxes are capable of. If that's how you wish to leave it, that's fine with me.

We're all glad it's fine with you, the all knowing one.

Now back to reality. I had 4 Aerial subs with my Meridian for 1 1/2 years prior to buying the Submersives.

I will save you your next post and I write it for you. "Meridian owners will say that Aerial subs will not work with their gear either".
Ken
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post #229 of 235 Old 12-16-2010, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by edorr View Post

In the spirit of logical reasoning here is a thought.

You use your SSP for D/A conversion and bass management, and a QSC 322 for Room EQ. The QSC was initially calibrated with the 861v4, yielding big sonic dividends.

You then replaced the v4 with a v6 and was disappointed. If there are differences in crossover filtering between the v6 and v4, resulting in different low frequency output curve between the v6 and v4. this could be explain why there was little improvement - the QSC may have not been correctly calibrated with the v6.

You then replaced the v6 with the ADA and was delighted. This was not apples to apples, because bass management in the ADA and v6 is different so you are feeding the QSC a different low frequency response curve with the ADA than with the v6. The QSC is surely incorrectly calibrated for the ADA.

Logically, one would conclude that most likely, with proper calibration the QSC / ADA combo can only get better, further widening the performance gap (as perceived by Ken) with the QSC / v6.

Am I missing something?

Maybe or Maybe not. However what actually made me underwhelmed was not when I was listening to my Meridian (mswlogo will need further therapy after reading this), was when I heard my brothers HT with his Lexicon MC12 and was surprised how much better his sounded than my system.

He also has a QSC calibrated by the same person that did mine. Guess what? He had that same bass slam that I now have. In addition to this, we have the same amps, and same speakers.

Logic is telling me that after hearing two processors with this same characteristic, Meridian doesn't have the balls.
Ken
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post #230 of 235 Old 12-16-2010, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by ken6217 View Post

Logic is telling me that after hearing two processors with this same characteristic, Meridian doesn't have the balls.
Ken
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Suggesting that the Lexicon is also better than the Meridian based on deductive reasoning will unleash another firestorm of indignant responses I am sure. Trainwreck or not, this thread has the highest entertainment value of any non-Theta thread in a long time.
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post #231 of 235 Old 12-16-2010, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by ken6217 View Post

He had that same bass slam that I now have.

Do you and your brother happen to drive Ford Mustangs, wear golden chains and play lots of Rap and Hip Hop by any chance?
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post #232 of 235 Old 12-16-2010, 09:47 AM
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I'm not surprised. I owned a 565 Meridian years ago. Never thought it was excellent. Very good. But no better.

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #233 of 235 Old 12-16-2010, 09:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by edorr View Post

Do you and your brother happen to drive Ford Mustangs, wear golden chains and play lots of Rap and Hip Hop by any chance?

Lol. That was a good one.

Btw, it wasn't just the bass, it was the detail.
Ken
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post #234 of 235 Old 12-16-2010, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ken6217 View Post

Maybe or Maybe not. However what actually made me underwhelmed was not when I was listening to my Meridian (mswlogo will need further therapy after reading this), was when I heard my brothers HT with his Lexicon MC12 and was surprised how much better his sounded than my system.

He also has a QSC calibrated by the same person that did mine. Guess what? He had that same bass slam that I now have. In addition to this, we have the same amps, and same speakers.

Logic is telling me that after hearing two processors with this same characteristic, Meridian doesn't have the balls.
Ken
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Lexicon makes great stuff. I used to own one and I miss some features on it. I would have one if not for Meridian. I'm totally hooked on Meridan DSP Speakers. As Dennis says it's 90% Room, Speakers and Setup. You have so much STUFF after the preamp, swithing the preamp shouldn't make such jaw dropping differences. And most folks that have a lot of experience and no financial investment knows that.

Some would like to know why you hear such differences. I think you are incapable of figuring it out. They don't give crap which SSP you keep. Most believe you do hear a difference. Most just want to know where you F'd up.
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post #235 of 235 Old 12-16-2010, 10:56 AM
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Meridian does have different crossover slopes for Music modes and Theater modes.

The Music modes are 1st order high pass and 2nd order low pass.

This is different than most SSPs, which have symmetrical slopes, and, slopes that don't change across Music and Theater modes.
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