Any one see the Lexicon MC-12HD replacement at CES? - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 1296 Old 08-09-2011, 02:20 PM
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No, I could not convince them to work on it at all. He kept acting surprised that I had any expectation of being able to repair it. I asked him if he had a system he had still kept for debugging and he said no. He said the major parts in it have been discontinued and he has nothing at his shop to even test with . His only solution was for me to buy a new system which of course, I am not willing to do.

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post #272 of 1296 Old 08-09-2011, 02:24 PM
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Ironically, my goal was to compare its performance to JBL Sythesis which is the basis of the logic in the new Lexicon processor!

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post #273 of 1296 Old 08-10-2011, 01:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Nielsen View Post

The TacT TCS Mk III has been available for more than a year now. Full room correction (EQ, time, phase) from 20Hz-20kHz. Are you saying the TacT room correction is not serious? http://www.tactlab.com/Products/TCSmkIII/index.html

No, but it is not a surround processor. It is functionally more like the AP-20.

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post #274 of 1296 Old 08-10-2011, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

The company is not serious. Or else, I would not have a mKII that is a boat anchor after I spent $16K on it and the company will not support or repair. It broke btw because I asked it to update its own firmware. That bricked the box and it is stuck in infinite loop on power up. Company founder tells me I wasn't supposed to do that even though it is a standard feature in the set up program for the box!

For its time, TacT brought real innovation. But as a company, I would stay away from them.

I could not agree more. Their support is unheard of (in a negative way) and the documentation is wrong and misleading in many places. I bricked one of my Boz-2200 amps because I ran the boot loader update that was available in the end user software. I sent back the PCB to Boz and after 2~3 months of phone reminders he finially reprogrammed it for me and sent it back. Yes, it is possible to get TacT to repair, but you have to have A LOT of patience. Usually it takes 3 months to get things fixed...

They also have some real quality control problems. However, once you get working it's pretty good (despite a few annoying bugs).

I'm toying with the idea of replacing it with the JBL SDEC-4500 solution since my speakers are a full bi-amped Synthesis One setup...
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post #275 of 1296 Old 08-10-2011, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Ironically, my goal was to compare its performance to JBL Sythesis which is the basis of the logic in the new Lexicon processor!

Is the new Lexicon supposed to provide a solution better to, or equal to the JBL Synthesis SDEC-4500?
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post #276 of 1296 Old 08-10-2011, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

No, but it is not a surround processor. It is functionally more like the AP-20.

Why is it not a surround processor? TacT calls it "TCS MKIII (Theater Correction System) surround sound decoder with 12-channel Dynamic Room Correction and user programmable crossover filters."
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post #277 of 1296 Old 08-10-2011, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by virusc View Post

Amirm,

you can't send it back to them to reload the firmware? 16k is alot of money for a brick even if you are well off. Did they refuse to assist even for a fee?

The TCS Mk II cost $9,800.00 back when it was sold. Not sure where the $16k is coming from. Used Mk IIs can be had for $3,000-$4,000.

I'm sure Boz could simply reflash the firmware but getting him to do that is like pulling teeth and you need a ton of time and patience
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post #278 of 1296 Old 08-10-2011, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Nielsen View Post

The TCS Mk II cost $9,800.00 back when it was sold. Not sure where the $16k is coming from. Used Mk IIs can be had for $3,000-$4,000.

I bought the original MKII for $10K as you say, but then spent $6K on the upgrade to MKII. I didn't use it for a year or so and when I powered it up, two of the channels were not working. Since it had more channels than I needed, I was OK but that was the first time I ran into difficulty of getting service for it through Boz.

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I'm sure Boz could simply reflash the firmware but getting him to do that is like pulling teeth and you need a ton of time and patience

I opened the box after I realized he couldn't help me anyway. Looking at the main processor board, I found a solder bridge over two of the pins of the flash memory IC! I fixed that but no joy. I suspect the short caused the misprogramming. The PCB was reworked in that area. Not sure if that was as the result of the upgrade or original manufacturing. Either way, it was very sloppy work. Strange thing is that someone on AVS reported the exact same failure but his was fixed by getting new firmware from Boz. No matter how many times I asked, I could not get another firmware from him.

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post #279 of 1296 Old 08-10-2011, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Nielsen View Post

Is the new Lexicon supposed to provide a solution better to, or equal to the JBL Synthesis SDEC-4500?

I don't have permission to disclose the full detail but for now, it generally has the same horsepower as the SDEC-4500 although the configuration of the DSPs is different. Depending on how the DSPs are used, it can somewhat outperform the SDEC-4500 or lose to it slightly.

The expectation as far as the overall system performance is that it should have similar capability. Once we have the unit, I will try to do some comparisons to see if they are different.

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post #280 of 1296 Old 08-10-2011, 09:11 PM
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Looks like the MP-20 will be at CEDIA after all:

Harman targets CEDIA 2011 as new begining.

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post #281 of 1296 Old 08-10-2011, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Nielsen View Post
Is the new Lexicon supposed to provide a solution better to, or equal to the JBL Synthesis SDEC-4500?
About a year ago in the JBL BassQ thread someone posted part of an e-mail from Synthesis tech rep David Glass describing their approach to room correction (what we now know as ARCOS). From the e-mail: "Currently only one product does this, the JBL Synthesis SDEC4500, but most of this will be included in the next generation Lexicon Processor, though with a reduction of measurement resolution, and less filters for room correction."
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Originally Posted by Peter Nielsen View Post
I'm toying with the idea of replacing it with the JBL SDEC-4500 solution since my speakers are a full bi-amped Synthesis One setup...
The specifics of the speakers in your Synthesis One set-up are pre-programmed into ARCOS, so the SDEC-4500 would be a good fit for your system. As David Glass mentioned in the e-mail reply, part of their room correction procedure involves a routine that optimizes the blend between the subwoofers and speakers. This same program can be used to get the best blend between the two sections of your bi-amped speakers when using the SDEC as an external crossover. (In fact it is the same algorithm that Harman's speaker designers use to optimize blending of various drivers).

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post #282 of 1296 Old 08-10-2011, 11:53 PM
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The statements in the above email differ from what I have. As I said, it is a complex comparison. One cannot say it is a subset of SDEC-4500.

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post #283 of 1296 Old 08-11-2011, 12:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Nielsen View Post
Why is it not a surround processor? TacT calls it "TCS MKIII (Theater Correction System) surround sound decoder with 12-channel Dynamic Room Correction and user programmable crossover filters."
Ahh, I see that it says >>Support for all major decoding algorithms including HDMI support<<. I guess that means all the lossy and lossless codecs?? Yes? Is there some reason they do not list them?

I saw no reference to PLIIx processing, though, so it still falls short of any AV processor I'd buy.

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post #284 of 1296 Old 08-11-2011, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
One cannot say it is a subset of SDEC-4500.
Glass didn't say it was a subset of the BSS hardware, merely that the ARCOS software (in the Lex) measured at lower resolution and used fewer correction filters. Just like with Audyssey, the technology is scalable (measurement resolution, number of mic/positions, number of correction filters, etc). And since it is scalable, an even simpler version should eventually find its way into H/K receivers.

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post #285 of 1296 Old 08-11-2011, 06:45 AM
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Well it looks like we will finally find out.....

http://www.cepro.com/article/harman_...m_medium=email

This was recently posted at the SMR site.
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post #286 of 1296 Old 08-11-2011, 06:48 AM
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My apologies guys....I did not see the prior post alluding to this..
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post #287 of 1296 Old 08-11-2011, 06:59 AM
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They're going to announce that they're working on a processor?

Quote:


We are going to publicly announce we're working on a Lexicon processor, the MP20

Let's also hope they'll announce when they plan to complete it, and what it will cost.

Thanks,

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post #288 of 1296 Old 08-11-2011, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Nielsen View Post


Is the new Lexicon supposed to provide a solution better to, or equal to the JBL Synthesis SDEC-4500?

The thread on the Synthesis is interesting http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=989606

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post #289 of 1296 Old 08-11-2011, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Just like with Audyssey, the technology is scalable (measurement resolution, number of mic/positions, number of correction filters, etc). And since it is scalable, an even simpler version should eventually find its way into H/K receivers.

I am just saying that the implementation in some situations takes the path you mention but in others, goes in the opposite direction. We will have to see what the products does in person but it cannot be categorizes simply as a shrunk version of SDE-4500.

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post #290 of 1296 Old 08-11-2011, 11:30 AM
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post #291 of 1296 Old 08-11-2011, 12:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Looks like the MP-20 will be at CEDIA after all:

Harman targets CEDIA 2011 as new begining.

Nice find, thanks Sanjay, looking forward to what information will be provided. It's interesting that he says "...We are going to publicly announce we're working on a Lexicon processor..." This would be a first for Lexicon if the product doesn't launch this fall but rather sometime next year. They typically don't officially anounce products to far ahead of launch. It's also interesting he brings up the beating they suffered for the Blu-ray player

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post #292 of 1296 Old 08-11-2011, 12:32 PM
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That's great news all around. The other thing that I really appreciated about the article was their admission of stumbling for the last couple of years with no updates and the badly-received BD player. There aren't many other companies that do this (eg. a certain company named after a Greek letter which endlessly equivocated about HDMI), and this kind of direct communication was what made many of us old-timer Lexicon owners really like the company in the past. I can only hope that this signals a return to what made them great.

--Andre
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post #293 of 1296 Old 08-11-2011, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreYew View Post

TThere aren't many other companies that do this (eg. a certain company named after a Greek letter which endlessly equivocated about HDMI),

--Andre

Would that be the one that got glowing reviews on it's Oppo based not boxed over Blu-ray player?

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post #294 of 1296 Old 08-11-2011, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I opened the box after I realized he couldn't help me anyway. Looking at the main processor board, I found a solder bridge over two of the pins of the flash memory IC! I fixed that but no joy. I suspect the short caused the misprogramming. The PCB was reworked in that area. Not sure if that was as the result of the upgrade or original manufacturing.

Sloppy QC it's what it's all about. My brand new TCS Mk III arrived DEAD from the factory. Turned out that the internal power supply connectors were reversed!!! The guys assembled the unit and did not even bother to see if it powered on. Unbelievable! Another problem was that the channel mute relays did not work causing a loud POP when turning the unit on/off. The reason was that a transistor was installed the wrong way. Third problem was that one of the DSP boards was bad and caused static. Fourth problem (still not solved) is that HDMI audio sometimes goes dead - I found a workaround for now. Fifth problem (still not solved) is that the TCS forgets speaker-correction linkings when using multiple speaker setups. This is a simple software bug that Boz has fruitlessly promised to fix for more than a year now...

My Boz 216/2200 had these manufacturing defects:
-The 8 PTCs in Boz 216 are incorrectly dimensioned and will burn out with repetitive restarting. I had 2 PTCs burn out in less than 6 months. Since I fixed it 4 years ago, everything has been perfect. Boz does not believe me when I say his component choice is flawed.
-The plastic insulator spacers for the 4 transistors in Boz 2200 that are supposed to be cut/shortened in production, but apparently this is not always done and it causes the transistors to not be properly thermally connected and you end up with spontatnaeous amplifier self combustion. I had 3 amps go up in smoke before I finally figured out what's wrong. Boz still does not have a clue.
-The I/O PCB in all my 8 Boz 2200 amps have a design flaw that has been patched. It was not patched in one of the amps and this caused a problem with the daisy chain XLR connection.
-Two amps were patched to start more slowly (for no apparent reason and Boz could not tell why - I removed the patch with no side effects).
-Three amps with costmetic defects out of the box (blemishes on front panel). It took me MONTHS of nagging before I got Boz to send me replacements.
And probably a few other things I don't remember any more...

Pretty sad considering that the TCS Mk3 is $15k and the eight amp Boz 216/2200 combo is $34k.

Oh, and essentially Boz told Cineramax that I'm crazy and I should take a hike for complaining about "minor" things like this. (Eventually it turned out he screwed Cineramax too, and the planet that should have Boz amps gear got Levinson amps instead - my memory. Pieter, if you read this feel free to correct me).

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Either way, it was very sloppy work.

I agree 100%.

The TacT units are great once you fix all the "built in" problems.
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post #295 of 1296 Old 08-11-2011, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter Nielsen View Post

The TacT units are great once you fix all the "built in" problems.

Perhaps he should sell them in kit form.

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post #296 of 1296 Old 08-11-2011, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

We will have to see what the products does in person but it cannot be categorizes simply as a shrunk version of SDE-4500.

Nobody is categorizing it as a shrunk version of the SDEC-4500. You're the only one making that connection regarding the hardware. David Glass was talking about a scaled down version of the software.

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post #297 of 1296 Old 08-11-2011, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Rosano View Post

My apologies guys....I did not see the prior post alluding to this..

Don't worry about it. Someone will post it yet again.

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post #298 of 1296 Old 08-11-2011, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Perhaps he should sell them in kit form.

He should, especially since he does not even bother to wash the PCBs...
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post #299 of 1296 Old 08-11-2011, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Nobody is categorizing it as a shrunk version of the SDEC-4500. You're the only one making that connection regarding the hardware. David Glass was talking about a scaled down version of the software.

I'm worried about the opposite: That it blows the SDEC-4500 out of the water and renders it obsolete. This is holding me back from ordering the SDEC-4500 today...

However, it really does not sound like that is the case (am I right?). I'd rather go with the proven solution (SDEC-4500) than have to struggle with another piece of beta equipment (=TacT) like I have the past 6 years. I'm not saying that the new Lexicon is not perfect, but I would want some very apparent advantages other than cost. (I can't imagine that the new Lex is $26k like the current JBL SDP-40 + SDEC-4500 solution).
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post #300 of 1296 Old 08-11-2011, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

The thread on the Synthesis is interesting http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=989606

Thanks, I have followed that thread. Not sure if it's the same thread but a wild guess is that that's the thread saying something like: "SDEC-4500 is long in the tooth and obsolete". Keeps me alert and unwilling to pull the tigger although my own research shows the comment as FUD... I don't want to repeat the "$62k TacT Experience"
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