Any one see the Lexicon MC-12HD replacement at CES? - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 1296 Old 09-11-2011, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Eq systems that work in the time domain rather than pure frequency. Dirac, trinov, maybe harman synthesis.

Correction in time domain was one of the selling pitch for audyssey as far as I know.

http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/faq

There are bunch of other links that can be found

Not that I like audyssey, actually I would never use it from my personal experience. But purely from technical perspective maybe some else can elobarte about time domain

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post #452 of 1296 Old 09-11-2011, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Eq systems that work in the time domain rather than pure frequency. Dirac, trinov, maybe harman synthesis.

You're giving me a list of products rather than explaining what "time domain correction" is. If you don't know what it is, can you at least explain the advantages?

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post #453 of 1296 Old 09-11-2011, 07:48 PM
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Hopping planes. There are plenty here more well versed in the theory.

It all surged with Floyd toole and the Melissa using multiple microphones.

The frequency response is dealt with during several milliseconds as opposed to a grafik eq which deals with a single slice of a time domain reading.
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post #454 of 1296 Old 09-12-2011, 12:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
It all surged with Floyd toole and the Melissa using multiple microphones.
I doubt Toole would agree with you.
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The frequency response is dealt with during several milliseconds as opposed to a grafik eq which deals with a single slice of a time domain reading.
That makes no sense. You're confusing measurement with equalization. Besides, in this day and age of PEQ who uses graphic EQs (besides Krell)?

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post #455 of 1296 Old 09-12-2011, 01:15 AM
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Couple more videos:

QuantumLogic explained:
http://youtu.be/j_IedSfshA4

Harman Trailer/Kevin Voecks:
http://youtu.be/LFo1_jJAKrQ

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post #456 of 1296 Old 09-12-2011, 04:43 PM
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...Eq systems that work in the time domain rather than pure frequency....

FYI - ALL equalizers "work" in the time domain. The frequency domain is nothing more than a mathematical abstraction of the time domain as originally popularized by Fourier. IOW, the frequency domain doesn't exist in the real, physical -time domain- world
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post #457 of 1296 Old 09-13-2011, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastl View Post

The frequency domain is nothing more than a mathematical abstraction of the time domain as originally popularized by Fourier.

Thank you.

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post #458 of 1296 Old 09-13-2011, 11:10 AM
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Nice (and thorough) write-up by Amir about the QuantumLogic demo at CEDIA: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showth...ll=1#post66861

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post #459 of 1296 Old 09-14-2011, 10:51 AM
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I hope Todd Packer (Harman field application engineer) doesn't mind me reposting this here, but he posted this example of Soundfield Management over on SMR, and the results are impressive, to put it mildly. This is pretty freakin' impressive, and represents one of few true advances in sound quality in who knows how many years.

Note the dashed blue line all the way at the bottom of each graph --- that's the seat-to-seat variation.

Note too that there is no --- NONE --- room EQ at work here.

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I wanted to post these pictures so everyone could see more "under the hood" then you normally can get.

These are from our actual room at CEDIA, and show the effects of multiple subs over multiple rows, and also how Sound Feild Management, both in the existing JBL Synthesis SDEC4500 and in the not yet released Lexicon MP20 will work.

I am now going to do something that no other company probably can or will do, and be totally transparent and who you EXACTLY how the room was effected and improved.

ALL BELOW PICTURES ARE AT 1/12 OCTAVE RESOLUTION AND HAVE NO ROOM EQ APPLIED. THIS IS ALL JUST SUBWOOFER OPTIMIZATION.

THESE ARE BIG PICTURES SO YOU WILL NEED TO SCROLL TO SEE THE WHOLE THING.

PICTURE 1: ONLY ONE SUBWOOFER
This is typical, for the 8 locations (seats) they are very different. 67 hz has almost +/- 6 db of variation.



PICTURE 2: 4 SUBWOOFER WITHOUT ANY DSP
This is what we published in AES 8 years ago and why we do multiple subs. You can see how much better the room is already, and now the worst place is at 52 hz with almost 4db of standard variation.



PICTURE 3: 4 SUBWOOFER WITH SOUND FEILD MANAGEMENT
The worst spot at 52 hz is now under +/-2.5. Which means that it is almost 50% better. And that the biggest swing from best to worst has been reduced by 3db, which is a large amount. Plus the rows are much closer below that point.


Original post here.
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post #460 of 1296 Old 09-14-2011, 12:12 PM
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If you compare the second and third graphs, you'll see SFM close the gap between the first row (black lines) and second row (red lines). Looking at all three graphs, you can see the seat to seat variation (dotted blue line at bottom of graph) flatten out. (Interesting that he posted measurements directly from HATS rather than with the ARCOS skin.)

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post #461 of 1296 Old 09-14-2011, 05:22 PM
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Also this paper: Low-Frequency Optimization Using Multiple Subwoofers by Todd Welti & Allan Devantier, Harman Intl, as published in JAES Vol. 54, No. 6, 2006 May
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post #462 of 1296 Old 09-15-2011, 09:04 PM
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I hope you're right. Perhaps we'll see.

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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

ARCOS room correction canl be adventageous irrespective of how many speakers you have (even more useful if you're using more than one subwoofer). Heck, even a good 2.2 speaker set-up could benefit.


What I can afford, when I can afford it...
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post #463 of 1296 Old 09-21-2011, 08:25 AM
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Has anyone heard anything more about a step-down (affordable, or at least moreso) model based on MP-20 architecture? Something in the $5K range without all the geewiz features but with HDMI switching, QuantumLogic and HD audio codecs (and please add unbalanced outs) would sell very well, no doubt. Leave the MP-20 to the Bill Gates of the world, just give us regular guys the basic meat and potatoes. Thanks.

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post #464 of 1296 Old 09-21-2011, 08:30 AM
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they said 8 for the basic unit.
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post #465 of 1296 Old 09-21-2011, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filecat13 View Post

I hope you're right. Perhaps we'll see.

My memory may be off, but I seem to remember the tests comparing different room correction tools relying on a single speaker since its effects were more discernible. According to the test subjects in the test, the Harman product performed better than reproduction with no correction.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence, than it does knowledge. Charles Darwin
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post #466 of 1296 Old 09-21-2011, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

My memory may be off, but I seem to remember the tests comparing different room correction tools relying on a single speaker since its effects were more discernible.

Yup, in the presentation there is a slide showing that listening in mono, stereo and surround yields the same result/ranking. But the fewer speakers you use, the easier it becomes to perceive differences.
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According to the test subjects in the test, the Harman product performed better than reproduction with no correction.

So did the Lyngdorf; and the Anthem was juuuust under no correction (close enough that I'm guessing that it would have ranked above no correction if they had used a different speaker).

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post #467 of 1296 Old 09-27-2011, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

they said 8 for the basic unit.

What exactly is a "basic" unit? How is it different from the top end unit? Does this mean there will be no entry level model comparable to the MC-4/8?

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post #468 of 1296 Old 09-27-2011, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmith901 View Post

What exactly is a "basic" unit? How is it different from the top end unit? Does this mean there will be no entry level model comparable to the MC-4/8?

There is no basic unit much less talk of a price. Not sure why Peter is saying what he is saying as I am confident it did not come from Harman.

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post #469 of 1296 Old 09-27-2011, 05:26 PM
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Oh, maybe he is confusing this product with the new cost of the older processor which is at $8K.

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post #470 of 1296 Old 10-11-2011, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Oh, maybe he is confusing this product with the new cost of the older processor which is at $8K.

As I recall, the MC-12 preceded the MC-8 and later the MC-4, so perhaps us poor folks will just have to wait a year or so to get an affordable model. The model number MP-20 would seem well chosen to allow a lower number, such as MP-10 or MP-15 for lower models.

Also, I read somewhere that the trade-in option had been dropped, then I read elsewhere it was back on. Any last word on that?

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post #471 of 1296 Old 10-11-2011, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmith901 View Post

As I recall, the MC-12 preceded the MC-8 and later the MC-4, so perhaps us poor folks will just have to wait a year or so to get an affordable model. The model number MP-20 would seem well chosen to allow a lower number, such as MP-10 or MP-15 for lower models.

Personally, I am looking forward to the MP-40, the turbo-charged, V-12 version.

Seriously, whatever is coming down the road, is really down the road. This thing eats a lot of horsepower and it is not trickling down quickly.

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Also, I read somewhere that the trade-in option had been dropped, then I read elsewhere it was back on. Any last word on that?

I just confirmed with them that the trade in program is on, and never went away.

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post #472 of 1296 Old 10-12-2011, 09:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

....

I just confirmed with them that the trade in program is on, and never went away.

Amir, still no details on that yet? My guess is no since we may not see the MP-20 until June. It would be good if Lex would just let us know so we can accurately prepare

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post #473 of 1296 Old 10-12-2011, 10:10 AM
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I was told they were actually working on the details of the program when I contacted them. When they are finished and decide to share that publicly I don't know. Good news is that my channel is directly to the folks creating the program so to the extent there is any data to be shared, it will be .

From what I can tell reading between the lines, they are trying to be generous in this trade in program. What that means and their notion of generous and that of you and I, might differ . I personally remain hopeful, holding on to my MC-12B.

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post #474 of 1296 Old 10-12-2011, 12:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I was told they were actually working on the details of the program when I contacted them. When they are finished and decide to share that publicly I don't know. Good news is that my channel is directly to the folks creating the program so to the extent there is any data to be shared, it will be .

From what I can tell reading between the lines, they are trying to be generous in this trade in program. What that means and their notion of generous and that of you and I, might differ . I personally remain hopeful, holding on to my MC-12B.

Thanks very much Amir. I'll keep an eye out for any new info you are able to get a hold of.

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post #475 of 1296 Old 10-14-2011, 01:19 AM
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Looks like a very exciting new box . My old MC-12B will probably be traded in for this if they get a trade-in program going. BUT, all that video-processing bit doesnt sound very good to me. If there's an area which will create bugs/problems and be hopelessly outdated at any point it's videoprocessing in a product like this. What I for one need is video THROUGHPUT with as little latency as possible. When f.ex. gaming through a controller of this kind low latency is a must and the more VP beeing done the latency will go up.

I hope a version of the MP-20 will be available without the VP part or that they reconsider this. Put the money into better sound quality (better DAC implementation f.ex. 32bits instead of 24, 384 or 768Khz res. instead of 192Khz) thats my suggestion.

Damn, my old MC-12B has 192/24. Hasn't the world gotten farther ahead than that since they made the MC-12B? ^^ Oh yeah, it has...

Shait Happenz...
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post #476 of 1296 Old 10-14-2011, 01:39 AM
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Why push performance even further past audible thresholds? I agree that there might be other interesting places to divert resources instead of video processing, But this isn't one of them.

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post #477 of 1296 Old 10-14-2011, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LydMekk View Post


Damn, my old MC-12B has 192/24. Hasn't the world gotten farther ahead than that since they made the MC-12B? ^^ Oh yeah, it has...


The MC-12 has 24/192 capable DAC's on the main outputs.It's internal processing is at 24/96Khz.

The difference is the MP-20's internal processing is at 24/192 vs 24/96 for the MC-12.
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post #478 of 1296 Old 10-15-2011, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigus View Post

Why push performance even further past audible thresholds? I agree that there might be other interesting places to divert resources instead of video processing, But this isn't one of them.

Concur.
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post #479 of 1296 Old 10-15-2011, 07:01 AM
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Why those with long memories would ever buy anything from a Harmon company after we got hosed on Proceed upgrading is way beyond my comprehension. I remember those ads promising my unit would never be outdated, forever upgradable. Liars........... I won't ever buy a Harmon product again. Jokes on me as far as that promise went.
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post #480 of 1296 Old 10-15-2011, 07:16 AM
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"Why those with long memories would ever buy anything from a Harmon company after we got hosed on Proceed upgrading is way beyond my comprehension. "

Because Lexicon has been offering upgrades and trade in ever since their first processors in the late 80s. Pretty sure they also offered trade ins for Proceed owners after Proceed went out of business.

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