Any one see the Lexicon MC-12HD replacement at CES? - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 1296 Old 12-08-2011, 06:37 PM
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Raul, you didn't answer my question. I ask you again: why are you discussing Dennis' comments when he has no knowledge of current products that Lexicon is based on?

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post #542 of 1296 Old 12-08-2011, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Such is not the case with Harman and its multi-billion dollar car business, including the audio equipment for Ferrari

Is the car side of their business that big? Never would have guessed it.

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post #543 of 1296 Old 12-08-2011, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Raul, you didn't answer my question. I ask you again: why are you discussing Dennis' comments when he has no knowledge of current products that Lexicon is based on?

I tried to but obviously failed I'll try and break it into sections.

1. Sanjay suggested that the delay in the MP-20 could be related to the use of proprietary software.

2. You argued that was not the case because the software was "mature" (at least it was in the market and being used).

3. I suggested that even though the software had been developed it probably still needed development for the MP-20. The basis for my suggestion:

a) Dennis had an experience with an older version of the Synthesis and he found it wanting. I.e. The Eq needed development (Please note that we are discussing Bulldoggers' question regarding why it has taken Lexicon 3 yrs plus to release the updated SSP, so it was relevant to reference the old eq even though it was at least 3 yrs old)

b) QLC was developed for a "static" car environment, and needed to be fine-tuned to handle the more complex home environment.

The second point may have some validity, but the first one raised some concerns (especially since you are quite familiar with the current version of the eq). Rather than just point out that Dennis' experience was with an outdated version of the Synthesis, your argument seemed focused on addressing Dennis' misconceptions about the innards of the SSP. Moreover, the manner in which you advanced your argument totally disregarded Dennis' prior experience with the older version of the Synthesis. Eventually it became clear that you were also stating that the present version of the eq has been around for a couple of yrs, so it should not have been a factor in the delay. The serpentine way in which you got there though was a little confusing if not troubling. Dennis' comments were framed in a way which I'm guessing you did not intend, especially when the only point that needed to be made was that the current eq was not the same tool used by Dennis in his previously owned Synthesis.

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post #544 of 1296 Old 12-08-2011, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

The named inventor, Dr. Soulodre was one of the two people doing the demos at CEDIA for Harman. I don't know if he is an employee or consultant to Harman but he certainly has assigned the rights to that patent to Harman. As you say, it is routine for both employees and consultants of the companies to assign their inventions performed using company facilities and resources to the entity providing the same.

I'm pretty sure that at the demo Dr Soulodre was introduced as being a university based researcher and not an employee of Harman.
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post #545 of 1296 Old 12-08-2011, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

Is the car side of their business that big? Never would have guessed it.

$2.74B FY 2011 = 73% of net sales.

Consumer $420M = 11%
Professional $613M = 16%
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post #546 of 1296 Old 12-08-2011, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

1. Sanjay suggested that the delay in the MP-20 could be related to the use of proprietary software.

2. You argued that was not the case because the software was "mature" (at least it was in the market and being used).

Seeing how I am the only one with current information on both JBL Synthesis and Lexicon MP-20, this should have been it. But I guess not .

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3. I suggested that even though the software had been developed it probably still needed development for the MP-20. The basis for my suggestion:

a) Dennis had an experience with an older version of the Synthesis and he found it wanting.

I saw nothing about his experience with ARCOS going into Lexicon.

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I.e. The Eq needed development (Please note that we are discussing Bulldoggers' question regarding why it has taken Lexicon 3 yrs plus to release the updated SSP, so it was relevant to reference the old eq even though it was at least 3 yrs old)

Can't figure out what you are saying here. And at any rate, the whole theory is house of cards, thinking the software EQ is the critical path as opposed to video, laying out boards, tooling, certification, etc, etc.

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b) QLC was developed for a "static" car environment, and needed to be fine-tuned to handle the more complex home environment.

I already answered this as being a mis-assessment. QLS' main claim to fame is the process of extracting streams from a stereo channel. That extraction is independent of what you do with it. Other than coming up with a UI that works in a home setting, I am not seeing what work you think there is here.

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Rather than just point out that Dennis' experience was with an outdated version of the Synthesis, your argument seemed focused on addressing Dennis' misconceptions about the innards of the SSP.

No, I am asking for the third time why we should care at all about what Dennis has to say in the context of this processor. He has no information about current JBL products or this Lexicon processor.

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Moreover, the manner in which you advanced your argument totally disregarded Dennis' prior experience with the older version of the Synthesis.

He has shared no experience with ARCOS. The fact that he had a "Syn system" is neither here nor there. So what that he had such a system? How does it bear on the schedule for Lexicon?

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Eventually it became clear that you were also stating that the present version of the eq has been around for a couple of yrs, so it should not have been a factor in the delay. The serpentine way in which you got there though was a little confusing if not troubling.

Again, there is nothing confusing about the fact that he has no knowledge of the technology in question. You keep trying to spin a one-liner from Dennis as to mean something in this context. As they say, "this dog don't hunt."

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Dennis' comments were framed in a way which I'm guessing you did not intend, especially when the only point that needed to be made was that the current eq was not the same tool used by Dennis in his previously owned Synthesis.

Again, it is hard to follow what you are writing.

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post #547 of 1296 Old 12-08-2011, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Can't figure out what you are saying here. And at any rate, the whole theory is house of cards, thinking the software EQ is the critical path as opposed to video, laying out boards, tooling, certification, etc, etc.

I highly doubt this is the reason, because as Sanjay noted, if Harman had chosen to just license third party technology, the MP-20 would have been out a long time ago. You have numerous companies that are able to produce multiple receivers and SSPs each yr, so "video, laying out boards, tooling, certification, etc," should not be a problem for a company with the means of Harman.

As to the rest, I agree, your dog don't hunt

We'll just have to agree to disagree in our interpretations...but I still think he did something to your breakfast bowl

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post #548 of 1296 Old 12-08-2011, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by RUR View Post

$2.74B FY 2011 = 73% of net sales.

Consumer $420M = 11%
Professional $613M = 16%

No wonder high-end audio companies tried to get into car audio.

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post #549 of 1296 Old 12-08-2011, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter M View Post

I'm pretty sure that at the demo Dr Soulodre was introduced as being a university based researcher and not an employee of Harman.

From prior experience, I do know universities and professors are willing to sign away their IP...usually for the right price and the rights to publish some element of the research.

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post #550 of 1296 Old 12-09-2011, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

I highly doubt this is the reason, because as Sanjay noted, if Harman had chosen to just license third party technology, the MP-20 would have been out a long time ago.

On what basis? The rest of the machine would have magically become ready to go, just waiting for the DSP software?

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You have numerous companies that are able to produce multiple receivers and SSPs each yr, so "video, laying out boards, tooling, certification, etc," should not be a problem for a company with the means of Harman.

Neither here, nor there. Those companies may be using ODM designs/modules and Harman could be doing it from scratch.

And it doesn't matter how much resources you have. Some things take time. If you are doing an ASIC for example, there are X number of weeks to proto and X number of weeks to production. HDMI testing with other equipment takes cycles just the same. And final certification is always an unknown, sometimes requiring re-laying out the board and such.

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We'll just have to agree to disagree in our interpretations...but I still think he did something to your breakfast bowl

Disagree on what? You guys are making wild guesses and then want to analyze those guesses. Empty analysis of empty facts.

Hardware projects like this could have myriads of reasons for taking a long time and unless you work in the development team, you will never know the reasons. Sitting here pontificating on the reasons is just waste of time.

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post #551 of 1296 Old 12-09-2011, 10:30 AM
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Well if you want to go down this path:

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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

On what basis?

Time line.
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Those companies may be using ODM designs/modules and Harman could be doing it from scratch.

And it doesn't matter how much resources you have. Some things take time. If you are doing an ASIC for example, there are X number of weeks to proto and X number of weeks to production. HDMI testing with other equipment takes cycles just the same. And final certification is always an unknown, sometimes requiring re-laying out the board and such.

As a major company you would have to be fairly incompetent to take 3 yrs to put out this level of hardware. As I said, other manufacturers can put out a number of SSP and receivers with many different capabilities in that time frame. If you are going to justify taking 3 yrs merely to address hardware issues, then Harman is behaving like a boutique operation...considering their resources this would be either a poor reflection on their capabilities or the importance they give their Lexicon products. Please note I'm not making any of these arguments, but rather these arguments flow from your contentions regarding hardware and what other major corporations are able to do.
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Disagree on what? You guys are making wild guesses and then want to analyze those guesses.

No, disagree that you either are being obtuse are failing to comprehend simple arguments. My statement about Dennis was that he had experience with an older version of Synthesis. You have implied a number of things regarding his statements, but have not stated that you feel he misrepresented his ownership of the older version of the Synthesis. As I said before, all you had to point out was that the older version that he experienced lacked the ARCOS software, so he could not comment on it. Instead you chose attack and make some odd comments about Dennis for no apparent reason.

Again lets break it down.

1. Dennis said he was not impressed with an earlier version of the Synthesis
2. I responded that this could suggest Harman updated their software.

The correct follow up is "The version he owned did not have ARCOS". That would have ended that part of the discussion. Instead you chose to:

1. Question the value of anything Dennis had to add
2. Argue that Dennis was incapable of commenting because he did not know what the innards of the Synthesis were composed of.
3. You are the only one that could talk about ARCOS and Lexicon.

The first statement at the very least needs to be justified. You chose to justify it by his question regarding the innards of the Synthesis...at the very least a red herring, at worst a disingenuous approach.

Your last comment could have validity, and would have been easily reinforced if you had chosen to point out the older Synthesis lacked ARCOS so Dennis experience regarding the software bore little relevance; especially since ARCOS has been out for X yrs. Rather than cast aspersions to anything Dennis said for no clearly stated reason you could have better informed the conversation. I have no idea why you went down that path, or why you are choosing to try and extend the discussion when I was willing to just treat it as just a case of differing perspectives. However, the facts as stated above are clearly laid out in this thread.
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Hardware projects like this could have myriads of reasons for taking a long time and unless you work in the development team, you will never know the reasons. Sitting here pontificating on the reasons is just waste of time.

Yes, and thus my comments above, especially regarding time lines. BTW, the only person pontificating is you, some of us are just conjecturing...and you do know this is the Internet, conjecturing and pontificating are par for the course

PS Regarding QLS: as you noted "QLS' main claim to fame is the process of extracting streams from a stereo channel". But that does not necessarily lead to the conclusion you suggest; i.e. once developed for a car, in a static, noisy and cramped environment, the software needed no further development to be used in a home environment. Each of the three characteristics mentioned about cars could easily affect the implementation in a home environment; i.e. what sounded good/acceptable in the car environment was lacking in a home environment, so the software needed to be fine tuned. Again, pure speculation, but not as groundless as you imply it to be.

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post #552 of 1296 Old 12-09-2011, 11:04 AM
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For fun, I will keep going . But this is precisely what is wrong with many arguments on the forum. You have no data that pertains to the topic, yet like to argue with the person who does. Is it because you own a competing processor and like to shed negative light on this unit no matter how thin your case?
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Time line.

Yeh right. You have real data as to project start, level of resources, the design and revisions, who is manufacturing it, who is designing, etc.? Of course not. But why not take hearsay and run with it.

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As a major company you would have to be fairly incompetent to take 3 yrs to put out this level of hardware.

No, you wouldn't. If you don't understand that, then you have not worked for a company that produces A/V equipment.

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As I said, other manufacturers can put out a number of SSP and receivers with many different capabilities in that time frame.

You have no idea what you are saying Raul. It is all about *volume*. If you have volume, you get the companies making the silicon help you with your design because you mean a lot of business to them. Unfortunately what the entire high-end company does is less than one single mass market company's volume in a week!

Ask a chip company if they like working with high-end companies and they will blow your head off. I know, I have asked. If a chip sells for $2, 10,000 units that one might sell in the lifetime of a product like this means $20,000 gross! Many companies refuse to even do business with you.

So yes, you will see a Japanese or Korean company do a processor every year but high-end companies that can't even get one done. And the ones that do produce them, are based on ODM designs in Taiwan. And that creates its own set of issues. You start designing with them, half way through getting it finished they tell you that they have discontinued the module and have a new one! You change the design and start over again. Then you get ready to go to manufacturing and find issues with that design. They tell you that they won't fix it because they don't understand the problem or know how to fix it. Then you sit there trying to figure out how to put a work-around in there. Either you get lucky or not. If not, then you may go on months not be able to finish the design.

Come back and make an argument when you appreciate the complexities of such projects Raul. Until then, you are just raising the noise floor with these layman superficial talk.

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If you are going to justify taking 3 yrs merely to address hardware issues, then Harman is behaving like a boutique operation...considering their resources this would be either a poor reflection on their capabilities or the importance they give their Lexicon products.

Yes, the product is a boutique product. The total revenue is small and volumes small. So you are not going to see the entire team designing car audio stop working on the next Lexus and come and do a processor for us. We are lucky that Harman did decide to put out this product. They could have very well decided to not do one. Or put as much innovation in it as they have.

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Please note I'm not making any of these arguments, but rather these arguments flow from your contentions regarding hardware and what other major corporations are able to do.

Great. So you are throwing paper arguments out that are not even yours? I do have better things to do than answer such things Raul.

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No, disagree that you either are being obtuse are failing to comprehend simple arguments. My statement about Dennis was that he had experience with an older version of Synthesis.

And I said you were out of order. The topic was the time it takes to get ARCOS ported to Lexicon. You keep talking about Dennis but he has said nothing about ARCOS. Why on earth him saying he owned some old system has anything to do with this topic? I have asked you that four times and this is the fifth time.

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You have implied a number of things regarding his statements, but have not stated that you feel he misrepresented his ownership of the older version of the Synthesis.

I am saying I don't trust what Dennis has to say about the technologies we are talking about because clearly his source of information is wrong. Whether he has owned some old product is neither here, nor there.

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As I said before, all you had to point out was that the older version that he experienced lacked the ARCOS software, so he could not comment on it.

I have told you but you have not listened. I keep repeating that he has said nothing about the issues at hand yet you keep saying Dennis this, and Dennis that.

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Instead you chose attack and make some odd comments about Dennis for no apparent reason.

What attack? You mean if he says JBL Synthesis is a re-badged QSC I am supposed to smile about it? What if I said your processor is a re-badged QSC? You will fight anyone saying otherwise?

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1. Dennis said he was not impressed with an earlier version of the Synthesis

With no detail provided. You believe statements that are not backed on this forum with specifics?

Quote:


2. I responded that this could suggest Harman updated their software.

Software? I asked you before. Where did Dennis talk about room EQ that is in Lexicon?

Quote:


The correct follow up is "The version he owned did not have ARCOS".

No, that would require assumptions on my part of what he did or did not have. I can only go by what he has written. And what he wrote was that he a) owned an old version of Synthesis and b) has no idea what hardware is in current products and certainly no knowledge of Lexicon.

Gosh. I will stop here. I think this ranks as one of the most illogical arguments I have had with anyone on this forum. Are you grasping at anything you can find to shed a poor light on this product Raul? I have to think you have a motivation here or we wouldn't be here. Is that it?

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post #553 of 1296 Old 12-12-2011, 02:00 PM
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So Lexicon behaves like a botique company.

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post #554 of 1296 Old 12-12-2011, 03:17 PM
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So Lexicon behaves like a botique company.

Boutique *company*? No. Boutique company wouldn't have the R&D resources they have on automotive to create technologies such as QLS, ARCOS Room EQ, extensive testing facility, etc. Or a multi-billion dollar parent company which likes to preserve these brands to create cache in the rest of their business.

From sales point of view, these are high-end products whether they come out of Harman or someone else. So in that regard, they share the characteristics I mentioned such as low volume and design challenges. But you can't draw the inference that such things make them equal to 10-man shops producing boutique audio products.

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post #555 of 1296 Old 12-12-2011, 03:40 PM
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Didn't say equal to, nor intend to imply it. Behaves like was in reference to the specific discussion at hand; perhaps I should have been more specific with my word choice. Not arguing with your above musings... I just think it's worth noting that even a company as large as lexicon with the resources of a parent giant like harman can behave like, have similar challenges as, etc a botique company for these high end products. Or at least that seems to be the suggestion made.

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post #556 of 1296 Old 12-13-2011, 09:48 AM
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This crap never ends. I don't own the Lexicon and have never owned a Lexicon. But it seems apparent that Raul (a) has some hidden agenda or (b) can't afford the new Lexicon or (c) is a fan boy of some other technology/company or ???

Just buzzare!!!!

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post #557 of 1296 Old 12-25-2011, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Boutique *company*? No. Boutique company wouldn't have the R&D resources they have on automotive to create technologies such as QLS, ARCOS Room EQ, extensive testing facility, etc. Or a multi-billion dollar parent company which likes to preserve these brands to create cache in the rest of their business.

From sales point of view, these are high-end products whether they come out of Harman or someone else. So in that regard, they share the characteristics I mentioned such as low volume and design challenges. But you can't draw the inference that such things make them equal to 10-man shops producing boutique audio products.


Do you have updated info on when the MP-20 will be released? Has it been delayed beyond the first quarter of 2012? Thanks.

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post #558 of 1296 Old 12-25-2011, 10:50 PM
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Do you have updated info on when the MP-20 will be released? Has it been delayed beyond the first quarter of 2012? Thanks.

No I don't. I will be going to CES and hope to get a progress report I can share.

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post #559 of 1296 Old 12-26-2011, 12:35 AM
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Has it been delayed beyond the first quarter of 2012?

At CEDIA, Harman's marketing manager said they were shooting for 2nd quarter 2012 release. In a recent podcast, Kevin Voecks said it was due out "later next year".

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post #560 of 1296 Old 12-26-2011, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

At CEDIA, Harman's marketing manager said they were shooting for 2nd quarter 2012 release. In a recent podcast, Kevin Voecks said it was due out "later next year".

I heard that too but I took it as either meaning "later" as in it is not this year, but next which is what we already know. Either way, it was not specific enough to be a new data point.

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post #561 of 1296 Old 12-26-2011, 12:30 PM
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Is the MP-20 intended to replace the SDEC 4500 in most deployments?

In the right hands, could the MP-20 internal DSP obviate the need for the QSC?

 

 

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post #562 of 1296 Old 12-26-2011, 01:19 PM
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Is the MP-20 intended to replace the SDEC 4500 in most deployments?

IMHO it could certainly replace SDEC in some systems (other folks would know that better), but it is more likely to expand the user base for Harman EQ into additional systems where SDEC was cost prohibitive.

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In the right hands, could the MP-20 internal DSP obviate the need for the QSC?

Yes, the MP-20 will not require any external EQ in many systems. However, in complex systems, it will replace the MC12 as the switcher/processor and BSS EQ will handle the rest.

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post #563 of 1296 Old 12-26-2011, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by rabident View Post

Is the MP-20 intended to replace the SDEC 4500 in most deployments?

The SDEC is an outboard EQ, the MP-20 is a full fledged pre-pro. Depending on what functionality the MP-20's room correction turns out to capable of, it could either replace just the pre-pro in a Synthesis system or the pre-pro and SDEC.
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In the right hands, could the MP-20 internal DSP obviate the need for the QSC?

Again, depends on final capability. When configured by a typical consumer, the EQing will be mostly automatic, with probably not much manual tweakability. If you hire an ARCOS calibrator, they might be able to do a full Synthesis level calibration, with manual fine tuning on par with a QSC or SDEC unit. It's all speculation until the MP-20 is released and Lexicon confirms capabilities.

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post #564 of 1296 Old 01-03-2012, 02:40 PM
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Has anyone heard anything more with regard to future step-down models for us mere mortals? The EQ sounds impressive, but IMO Lexicon's greatest asset is it's processing and it's excellent 2 ch bypass (which I hope they don't forget). All I want is that great Lex processing and SQ with the HD codecs and HDMI switching. The rest of the gold-plating features-wise is for the Bill Gates of the world, IMO. Give me a MC-4/8 equivalent of the MP-20 at a real world price and I am there. Now please someone tell me that is in the works...please?

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post #565 of 1296 Old 01-03-2012, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by dsmith901 View Post

Has anyone heard anything more with regard to future step-down models for us mere mortals? The EQ sounds impressive, but IMO Lexicon's greatest asset is it's processing and it's excellent 2 ch bypass (which I hope they don't forget). All I want is that great Lex processing and SQ with the HD codecs and HDMI switching. The rest of the gold-plating features-wise is for the Bill Gates of the world, IMO. Give me a MC-4/8 equivalent of the MP-20 at a real world price and I am there. Now please someone tell me that is in the works...please?

I have been reading this thread but not participating. My take on this though would be that Lexicon/Harmon will not put this in cheaper products until they can get R&D and other costs out of the 20. it took them a long time to put out the 4/8 after the 12, right?
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post #566 of 1296 Old 01-05-2012, 08:31 AM
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I have been reading this thread but not participating. My take on this though would be that Lexicon/Harmon will not put this in cheaper products until they can get R&D and other costs out of the 20. it took them a long time to put out the 4/8 after the 12, right?

Actually, my recollection is that the MC-8 came out very shortly after the MC-12, like within a year I think. The MC-4 came out much later and I wonder if it may have had to do with keeping costs down - they wanted to buy those processsors in bulk and couldn't use them all in the MC-12 or 8. Plus, there is a much bigger market for $4,000 processors than $10,000 processors, even if they have slightly fewer features. I doubt if anything has changed. How many MP-20s will sell at $16,000? Granted the 1% is rolling in green while the 99% are begging for crumbs, but after they sell 200 units to the super rich what are they gonna do with all those leftover chips? I guess right now they don't want to sour the market for the MP-20 by saying a "good enough" version will be available for $5,000 a few months later. Also, in the past Lexicon has been widely used in professional and theater applications; how many of those bottom-line buyers want to pay top dollar for a MP-20 full out when all they need is the processing and basic features?

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post #567 of 1296 Old 01-05-2012, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

I have been reading this thread but not participating. My take on this though would be that Lexicon/Harmon will not put this in cheaper products until they can get R&D and other costs out of the 20. it took them a long time to put out the 4/8 after the 12, right?

My understanding is that the next product application for this technology will be an even more OTT Mark Levinson processor.

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post #568 of 1296 Old 01-05-2012, 09:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Funny, I started this thread a year ago next week and here we are in the same situation in that I can ask the exact same question again however I believe I remember hearing in the pocast that Sanjay posted a while back that Harman/Lexicon had no plans of bringing the MP-20 to CES

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post #569 of 1296 Old 01-05-2012, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by dsmith901 View Post

Actually, my recollection is that the MC-8 came out very shortly after the MC-12, like within a year I think. The MC-4 came out much later and I wonder if it may have had to do with keeping costs down - they wanted to buy those processsors in bulk and couldn't use them all in the MC-12 or 8. Plus, there is a much bigger market for $4,000 processors than $10,000 processors, even if they have slightly fewer features. I doubt if anything has changed. How many MP-20s will sell at $16,000? Granted the 1% is rolling in green while the 99% are begging for crumbs, but after they sell 200 units to the super rich what are they gonna do with all those leftover chips? I guess right now they don't want to sour the market for the MP-20 by saying a "good enough" version will be available for $5,000 a few months later. Also, in the past Lexicon has been widely used in professional and theater applications; how many of those bottom-line buyers want to pay top dollar for a MP-20 full out when all they need is the processing and basic features?


Personally, and considering Lexicon's pricing of it's last SSP, this one is a relative bargain as the MC-12 retailed for about the same price many years back... This is good news for the 99% as the top 1% are suffering with higher taxes!!

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post #570 of 1296 Old 01-05-2012, 12:16 PM
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Actually, my recollection is that the MC-8 came out very shortly after the MC-12, like within a year I think. ?

Probably right as I am old guy
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