Any one see the Lexicon MC-12HD replacement at CES? - Page 22 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #631 of 1296 Old 01-15-2012, 02:50 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
noah katz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Mountain View, CA USA
Posts: 20,784
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 404 Post(s)
Liked: 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Do you all even want the video processing?

Definitely not.

It seems that it increases the processor by more $ than it costs to buy a standalone VP, which many of us don't want/need.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

This is one lousy business. Volumes are low yet design requirements for supporting HDMI very high.

I'd think the costs are largely in development, not production, so aren't they shooting themselves in the foot by limiting volume with such high prices?

Noah
noah katz is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #632 of 1296 Old 01-15-2012, 03:37 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Rod#S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,763
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 96 Post(s)
Liked: 29
I'm also a potential owner who doesn't need a video processor in the unit, so if they aren't abandoning the pursuit of brining a new processor to market I think releasing a unit without a video processor or having one available as a paid option is a good thing. By not having a high-end video processor onboard should reduce the price by a few thousand I would think all else being equal so that's a good thing in my view.

I just wish there was a time frame. It's probably not unrelasistic to consider 2012 a lost cause now, something in 2013 would seem the earliest.

Rod#S is online now  
post #633 of 1296 Old 01-15-2012, 11:43 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
amirm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 18,379
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 982 Post(s)
Liked: 547
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

I'd think the costs are largely in development, not production, so aren't they shooting themselves in the foot by limiting volume with such high prices?

Possibly. They get to revisit this equation as they think through how to get the innovations in MP-20 out in some other way .

Amir
Retired Technology Insider
Founder, Madrona Digital
"Insist on Quality Engineering"
amirm is offline  
post #634 of 1296 Old 01-16-2012, 09:11 AM
Senior Member
 
BigHat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Arlington, VA 22204
Posts: 389
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

It is certainly unfortunate turn of events. That said, one has to always be careful about pre-announcement of hardware products. Here is what I said just a couple of posts into this thread:


See the cautionary note that I finished it with which sadly became the case here.


Let's be honest. This is one lousy business. Volumes are low yet design requirements for supporting HDMI very high.

Here is one of the major contributing factors to this: 4K displays! Yes, you heard it right. Video silicon manufacturers are in a gold rush to cash out on upsampling to 4K. So they are gearing up their new silicon and discontinuing the old. The new chips are different and would cost a few million to redesign around them, living through early bugs, etc. All for a unit that has low volume and likely would provide no payback. So much aggravation for the marketing of these over-hyped displays .

BTW, since 4K at high refresh rates requires faster HDMI interface, that is going to obsolete good bit of current devices yet again. We are back to major flux on this terrible interface. It is like "C" students are running this industry for us .

Thanks for the insight. Information on what's happening is very helpful.
BigHat is offline  
post #635 of 1296 Old 01-16-2012, 11:04 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,992
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 846 Post(s)
Liked: 366
I would have thought that a processor without video processing would have already been in the grand plan for these AV products at Harman, considering that they might want something to compete more directly with the Theta, Bryston, Classe pieces, none of which have video processing.

Deadwood Atmos theater
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
Roger Dressler is offline  
post #636 of 1296 Old 01-16-2012, 11:45 AM
Advanced Member
 
mani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Arizona
Posts: 597
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

BTW, since 4K at high refresh rates requires faster HDMI interface, that is going to obsolete good bit of current devices yet again. We are back to major flux on this terrible interface. It is like "C" students are running this industry for us .

I agree....The HDMI conception was ridiculously ill planned. How could you not expect the bandwidth requirements not to increase 2-4 fold in next few years to come when they come out with HDMI concept, knowing the progress in audio/video and data requiements over last few years. Even two Cat6e ports will provide 20Gb/sec speed with much lower cost than HDMI interface , both implementation and the cables and Cat6/6e cables are very reliable , cheap and lock and well proven. I guess the guys who plan HDMI specs only plan one quarter at a time like lot of CEO's were doing.
Even better will be to use fiber optic network cable/port - with OM3 or OM4 standards it can transmit 40GB/s or 100 Gb/s and cables are much cheaper than HDMI and immune to EMi etc.
mani is offline  
post #637 of 1296 Old 01-16-2012, 12:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ca1ore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Stamford, CT
Posts: 1,798
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

I would have thought that a processor without video processing would have already been in the grand plan for these AV products at Harman, considering that they might want something to compete more directly with the Theta, Bryston, Classe pieces, none of which have video processing.

Fully agree (can add Meridian to the list of hiend units sans video processing). Given the almost constant flux in video formats, scaling algorithms, etc., going the separate route for the VP would seem to me to me to be at the heart of the reason to go 'separates ' in the first place - not to mention the fact that projectors also have serviceable capability.

Certainty and conviction are a sure sign you don't know what you're talking about! The world is not black and white, rather shades of grey!
ca1ore is offline  
post #638 of 1296 Old 01-16-2012, 12:15 PM
AVS Special Member
 
lymzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: lalaland
Posts: 3,074
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by mani View Post

I agree....The HDMI conception was ridiculously ill planned.

What if the purpose is force consumer to upgrade more frequently and squeeze as much as possible from the CE manufacture?

HDPLEX
lymzy is offline  
post #639 of 1296 Old 01-16-2012, 01:49 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
amirm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 18,379
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 982 Post(s)
Liked: 547
Quote:
Originally Posted by lymzy View Post

What if the purpose is force consumer to upgrade more frequently and squeeze as much as possible from the CE manufacture?

Sadly, everyone is overjoyed behind the scenes due to this . 3-D card was played last year. Now it is 4K.

Amir
Retired Technology Insider
Founder, Madrona Digital
"Insist on Quality Engineering"
amirm is offline  
post #640 of 1296 Old 01-16-2012, 04:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Glimmie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 8,018
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 182 Post(s)
Liked: 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Not in my surround processor. Other Lex owners have expressed likewise. There are plenty of companies that specialize in video processing (at various price points), and I would rather get a video processor from them. When it comes to video, Lex should stick to re-badging other people's players, even with the bad PR that comes from doing so. Certainly better than getting overly ambitious and trying to put dual independent video processors into their next pre-pro. Expensive mistake, but I'm glad they're going back to audio-only, even if it took a double dose of bad luck to force them into doing so.

+1

High end has always been synonymous with separate boxes. Let each do it's job the best. For example, since the golden era of HiFi in the 1950s, true high end systems always had separate tuners, preamps and power amps. But there were also "receivers" and integrated amps for the less scrutinizing applications.

HDMI switching is OK as the audio must be extracted from the HDMI stream anyway. But beyond that is best handled by a dedicated video processor that does video well.

Glimmie's HT Page
Being redone - comming soon!

Glimmie is online now  
post #641 of 1296 Old 01-16-2012, 07:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dsmith901's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 8,970
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 20
It is my understanding that the HDMI interface was originally designed for computers, not TV or video, hence the various problems with video and poor connection reliability. While the Cary C-12 was a total disaster in my eyes (I owned one briefly) I hope Lex does better and I am sure they will. I have never switched video through a receiver or processor so audio only is fine for me as long as it has on-screen display and HD codec support via HDMI. HDMI switchers are cheap (Monoprice) so why not just do like the MC-12 and stick in a HDMI switcher without processing just for those who MUST have that. Of course the HD codecs must be input and processed, otherwise why not just buy a used MC-12HD? AND, they can save a ton of money by using the old chassis/faceplates. So there you have it, a recipe for Lexicon success: Put the new audio codecs in the MC-12HD, cut the price in half, and prepare to be swamped with buyers! Leave the MP-20 or whatever until 4K becomes more widespread - in about 10 years!

"The truth is out there!"
dsmith901 is offline  
post #642 of 1296 Old 01-16-2012, 07:50 PM
Senior Member
 
Kishore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: San Diego
Posts: 492
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

I would have thought that a processor without video processing would have already been in the grand plan for these AV products at Harman, considering that they might want something to compete more directly with the Theta, Bryston, Classe pieces, none of which have video processing.

+1
I can understand need for offering video+audio all in one box, but cannot understand if Harman did not include MP-20 audio only variant in their line-up?

Regards,
Kishore
Kishore is offline  
post #643 of 1296 Old 01-16-2012, 10:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
filecat13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: SoCal
Posts: 4,507
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 92
People who make these kinds of decisions (and not just at Harman) sometimes have little to no engineering or scientific background, but are replete with marketing, finance, communications, administration, law, and MBA degrees. Some tend to think that any decision that makes sense to them must A) be the right thing to do, B) will make a ton of money, and C) is something the "unimaginative" engineers, designers, and fabricators haven't thought of. Generally, not only have these grand ideas been thought of, but they've already been tried and determined to be a a nightmare waiting to happen.

Almost every technical person I know who works in the electronics industry is dumbfounded and confounded by the ignorance, arrogance, and obtuseness of the company decision makers who have these grandly stupid ideas and expect them to be implemented. Yet technical people need to keep their jobs, too, so they go along to get along, until they break out and found their own small companies once they can't swallow any more idiocy. Or their spirit is slowly crushed out of them. Far too many that I know are in the "I'm just waiting to get my retirement" mode, and all the passion that got them into the game is gone.

That's a long-winded rant to say that I'm never surprised by the dumb things that well-funded, large corporations do, because many of the most incompetent people are at the top making decisions. Meanwhile the real talent underneath hustles to try to keep the company relevant as best it can.

What I can afford, when I can afford it...
filecat13 is offline  
post #644 of 1296 Old 01-17-2012, 09:19 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Raul GS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,194
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by filecat13 View Post

That's a long-winded rant to say that I'm never surprised by the dumb things that well-funded, large corporations do, because many of the most incompetent people are at the top making decisions. Meanwhile the real talent underneath hustles to try to keep the company relevant as best it can.

Executive decision making can also be truly dumbfounding, especially in high-tech companies where fresh ideas are critical, and the executives are...lets say...a little out of touch with the 15-35 generation. One company I know was ahead of apple on a couple of technologies, but the executives were not "hip" enough to recognize the value of the technology or the patents. A yr later Apple developed one of the techs and later the other. Apple made a bundle, they are considering moving away from high-tech (in a way a good idea considering their decision making, but a sad loss in IP development). (I will not even address some of their legal decisions or stupid requests they make of their engineers "because they can").

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence, than it does knowledge. Charles Darwin
Raul GS is offline  
post #645 of 1296 Old 01-17-2012, 11:36 AM
AVS Special Member
 
AndreYew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,670
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
It's not a well-kept secret that many of Lexicon's past decisions were driven by installers, which have a distinct set of needs that don't align with enthusiasts like us.

The rebadged DVD players were kind of the poster children of this malady. I wouldn't be surprised if the video processing was another feature to appease their installer audience.

I would have hoped by now that Apple showed the world that delighting your actual users instead of your resellers is a very good business model, but alas it seems that many companies are still deaf to this. The latest CES showed that Lexicon aren't the only ones who still ignore Apple's business model.
AndreYew is offline  
post #646 of 1296 Old 01-17-2012, 12:19 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
amirm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 18,379
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 982 Post(s)
Liked: 547
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreYew View Post

It's not a well-kept secret that many of Lexicon's past decisions were driven by installers, which have a distinct set of needs that don't align with enthusiasts like us.

The only need from installers is the provision for serial ports to correctly control equipment. That is as much good for the installers as it is for end users who want to have good automation, rather an pushing a button and hoping the device will reliably turn on and off.

Quote:


The rebadged DVD players were kind of the poster children of this malady. I wouldn't be surprised if the video processing was another feature to appease their installer audience.

That has little to do with installers. The motivation there was the complexity of Blu-ray implementation, the fact that chip companies will not support low-volume companies, and the fact that Lexicon channel has dealers with provide high level of hand holding of customers and hence, reasonable margin in the MSRP. My business carries the Oppo where we make no money in selling it. Most dealers would not for that reason so you don't have the option of walking into a store and walking out with the unit. Is that a pro-consumer thing for everyone?

Quote:


I would have hoped by now that Apple showed the world that delighting your actual users instead of your resellers is a very good business model, but alas it seems that many companies are still deaf to this. The latest CES showed that Lexicon aren't the only ones who still ignore Apple's business model.

Sorry but I don't get the connection at all to Lexicon. Instead of a me-too product, Lexicon was going to add innovations such as QLS which no one else has. In what way do you say that was meant to please the installers at the expense of the user?

As I said earlier, the issue at hand is the complexity of new video subsystems that are a fit for mass market companies far more than specialty. Lexicon and its competitors did not invent or have a hand in any of this. It is a broken model to be sure but not for the reasons you mention .

Amir
Retired Technology Insider
Founder, Madrona Digital
"Insist on Quality Engineering"
amirm is offline  
post #647 of 1296 Old 01-17-2012, 12:54 PM
AVS Special Member
 
AndreYew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,670
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

The only need from installers is the provision for serial ports to correctly control equipment.

Perhaps for a technically-savvy installer like yourself, this would be sufficient, but there's lots of flooby-dust being sold as well, especially by those installers who don't bring much value to the table.

For example, it is fine to bring out a DVD player with a matching faceplate to the MC-12 because many customers want an all-in-one solution that looks the part, but it is really distressing when that player does not express any of Lexicon's unique legacy or expertise beyond milling aluminum.

Quote:


Sorry but I don't get the connection at all to Lexicon. Instead of a me-too product, Lexicon was going to add innovations such as QLS which no one else has. In what way do you say that was meant to please the installers at the expense of the user?

I pointed to video processing, not QLS, as a symptom of this problem, so your question is misdirected.

And if video processing was indeed just an installer checklist feature, then the delay of bringing QLS and SFM to market caused by Lexicon's attempt to do video processing is a huge expense to the user (and the company). It was an utterly stupid decision on the part of Lexicon to add video processing to the MP-20 --- heads should be rolling, and managers fired or demoted.
AndreYew is offline  
post #648 of 1296 Old 01-17-2012, 01:05 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 19,911
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1451 Post(s)
Liked: 1031
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreYew View Post

It's not a well-kept secret that many of Lexicon's past decisions were driven by installers, which have a distinct set of needs that don't align with enthusiasts like us.

Right, when I used to discuss feature requests with Hank Finke (then VP of marketing for HSG), he would remind me that around 70% of the units were sold via installers, and they were the ones responsible for some of the free firmware upgrades we got for HDMI (1080p passthrough, 7.1 input).

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #649 of 1296 Old 01-17-2012, 01:07 PM
gsr
Oppo Beta Group
 
gsr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,663
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 203 Post(s)
Liked: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

That has little to do with installers. The motivation there was the complexity of Blu-ray implementation, the fact that chip companies will not support low-volume companies, and the fact that Lexicon channel has dealers with provide high level of hand holding of customers and hence, reasonable margin in the MSRP. My business carries the Oppo where we make no money in selling it. Most dealers would not for that reason so you don't have the option of walking into a store and walking out with the unit. Is that a pro-consumer thing for everyone?

I don't think there would have been nearly as much fuss about Lexicon's rebadged Oppo if the margin had actually been reasonable. They were basically reselling a $500 player for $3500. Even allowing for margins, there's nowhere near that difference in the fancy case they dropped the Oppo into.
gsr is offline  
post #650 of 1296 Old 01-17-2012, 01:19 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
amirm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 18,379
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 982 Post(s)
Liked: 547
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

I don't think there would have been nearly as much fuss about Lexicon's rebadged Oppo if the margin had actually been reasonable. They were basically reselling a $500 player for $3500. Even allowing for margins, there's nowhere near that difference in the fancy case they dropped the Oppo into.

Agreed. I always thought these re-purposed Oppos should sell for $999. Still not a lot of margin but better than selling customers other brands that don't work as well, or Oppo with no margin .

Amir
Retired Technology Insider
Founder, Madrona Digital
"Insist on Quality Engineering"
amirm is offline  
post #651 of 1296 Old 01-17-2012, 01:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Randy Bessinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,342
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked: 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

The only need from installers is the provision for serial ports to correctly control equipment. That is as much good for the installers as it is for end users who want to have good automation, rather an pushing a button and hoping the device will reliably turn on and off.


.

But are serial ports the best way to control equipment in this day and age of home networking? I know Crestron, AMX, etc. but still....? I happen to love equipment I can control through a home network without having to have someone program RS232 protocals. Second question, if you were looking into a crystal ball and someone wanted to learn RS232 programming for various remote solutions, is that going to be a sellable skill in 2-4 years?
Randy Bessinger is offline  
post #652 of 1296 Old 01-17-2012, 01:26 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Glimmie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 8,018
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 182 Post(s)
Liked: 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

I don't think there would have been nearly as much fuss about Lexicon's rebadged Oppo if the margin had actually been reasonable. They were basically reselling a $500 player for $3500. Even allowing for margins, there's nowhere near that difference in the fancy case they dropped the Oppo into.

Keep in mind though there are customers out there (some right here in this forum) that would not have a $900 BluRay player in their system. Doesn't matter who makes it or the fact that it is really a $500 player with a different skin.

The important fact is that it COST $3500 therefore it must be "high end".

Glimmie's HT Page
Being redone - comming soon!

Glimmie is online now  
post #653 of 1296 Old 01-17-2012, 01:32 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Glimmie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 8,018
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 182 Post(s)
Liked: 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

But are serial ports the best way to control equipment in this day and age of home networking? I know Crestron, AMX, etc. but still....? I happen to love equipment I can control through a home network without having to have someone program RS232 protocals. Second question, if you were looking into a crystal ball and someone wanted to learn RS232 programming for various remote solutions, is that going to be a sellable skill in 2-4 years?

Yes it's true that IPcontrol will soon replace RS232. I see it a lot lately on broadcast equipment.

But as a 50yr old engineer who grew up on RS232/422 I still prefer it. It's simple to implement when your are down in the low level software programming. IP control requires a whole complex protocol stack and handler that eats up memory and CPU cycles. Of course today both of those are dirt cheap even in small embedded chip computers so as a product developer, why not just use IP since others have already done all the hard work for you and made it available as free unlicensed code.

Glimmie's HT Page
Being redone - comming soon!

Glimmie is online now  
post #654 of 1296 Old 01-17-2012, 02:23 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
amirm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 18,379
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 982 Post(s)
Liked: 547
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

But are serial ports the best way to control equipment in this day and age of home networking? I know Crestron, AMX, etc. but still....? I happen to love equipment I can control through a home network without having to have someone program RS232 protocals.

Well, whether it is IP or serial port, you still have to "program" the automation system to talk to it. In either case you are sending a command to the device and have to tie it into the control surface/remote.

I personally prefer IP because it is one less wire to run. Alas, to implement IP, companies run full blown operating systems which means that if you want to turn the device back on using IP, the OS and CPU need to be running and that means you use fair bit of standby power. I have not seen Wake-on-LAN to get around that.

Quote:


Second question, if you were looking into a crystal ball and someone wanted to learn RS232 programming for various remote solutions, is that going to be a sellable skill in 2-4 years?

Per above, the work is the same. In my home, I use my Crestron to control my Media Center PC using IP, and the rest using a combination of serial and IR. The work was the same for all as I described.

Fortunately there are newer automation systems like Savant which auto-generate all the code and UI which help to sharply reduce this work.

Longer term, what we need is standardization in IP control so that one drive is needed for all. Alas there is no movement toward this. Every embedded programmer thinks he is going to be a hero by inventing yet another scheme to turn the unit on and off!

Amir
Retired Technology Insider
Founder, Madrona Digital
"Insist on Quality Engineering"
amirm is offline  
post #655 of 1296 Old 01-17-2012, 02:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Randy Bessinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,342
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked: 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Longer term, what we need is standardization in IP control so that one drive is needed for all. Alas there is no movement toward this. Every embedded programmer thinks he is going to be a hero by inventing yet another scheme to turn the unit on and off!

Amen to that.
Randy Bessinger is offline  
post #656 of 1296 Old 01-17-2012, 03:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dsmith901's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 8,970
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Re the parts issue, seems to me that Harman has a built-in solution by combining purchase of their mass market Harman Kardon receiver parts with those needed by Lexicon. So what if the $15,000 MP-20 uses the same video processing or other chips as the $900 H/K receiver? Just use more of them or different marketing terms to differentiate - the vast majority will never know the difference. The Lex pre/pro will still sound better and still appeal to the high end buyer. Harman has been in business too long not to know how to do these things. I know they were taken over by an investment group a few years back, and that may be the reason for some of these dumb moves since. They are still in business because of the quality of their products, so they are doing something right, but they can't keep screwing up forever or all that will change.

"The truth is out there!"
dsmith901 is offline  
post #657 of 1296 Old 01-17-2012, 04:28 PM
gsr
Oppo Beta Group
 
gsr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,663
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 203 Post(s)
Liked: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

But are serial ports the best way to control equipment in this day and age of home networking? I know Crestron, AMX, etc. but still....? I happen to love equipment I can control through a home network without having to have someone program RS232 protocals. Second question, if you were looking into a crystal ball and someone wanted to learn RS232 programming for various remote solutions, is that going to be a sellable skill in 2-4 years?

Yes, serial ports are still the best way to control equipment. They're very reliable and the complexity of programming them is a direct function of the manufacturer who designs the protocol. There are plenty of examples out there (Oppo, is one) where you just send simple test commands. TCP/IP protocols are just as easy to work with (many devices that have both interfaces use the exact same commands), but can be less reliable because you're at the mercy of the home network not having issues (not usually a problem, but it does happen).
gsr is offline  
post #658 of 1296 Old 01-17-2012, 04:31 PM
gsr
Oppo Beta Group
 
gsr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,663
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 203 Post(s)
Liked: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

Keep in mind though there are customers out there (some right here in this forum) that would not have a $900 BluRay player in their system. Doesn't matter who makes it or the fact that it is really a $500 player with a different skin.

The important fact is that it COST $3500 therefore it must be "high end".

Sorry, but that's not a good reason to charge a ridiculous markup for a product. Besides, the people who won't lower themselves to have a $900 Bluray player in their system have plenty of inferior products to choose from . They also look like fools to many of us when they do spend crazy money on something that's an obvious rip-off.
gsr is offline  
post #659 of 1296 Old 01-17-2012, 06:01 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Glimmie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 8,018
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 182 Post(s)
Liked: 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

Sorry, but that's not a good reason to charge a ridiculous markup for a product. Besides, the people who won't lower themselves to have a $900 Bluray player in their system have plenty of inferior products to choose from . They also look like fools to many of us when they do spend crazy money on something that's an obvious rip-off.

I'm not saying it is a good reason at all. I'm just pointing out that to some high end users it's all about what you paid, not actual measured performance.

You know, costs more, must be a superior product. If it weren't for this the most of the audiophile cable and accessories market would be non existant.

Glimmie's HT Page
Being redone - comming soon!

Glimmie is online now  
post #660 of 1296 Old 01-18-2012, 07:29 AM
Advanced Member
 
Peter Nielsen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Wilmington, NC, USA
Posts: 895
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Agreed. I always thought these re-purposed Oppos should sell for $999. Still not a lot of margin but better than selling customers other brands that don't work as well, or Oppo with no margin .

That would have been a good decision, and it would have introduced something that was missing on the market: An Oppo with silver face plate.

At the time, I would gladly have paid $500 more to get silver instead of black, but $3000 more? No thank you!
Peter Nielsen is offline  
Reply Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off