Any one see the Lexicon MC-12HD replacement at CES? - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 1296 Old 02-25-2012, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by dsmith901 View Post

Not to change topics, but that SMR thread said that early MC-12 models did not have pure analog bypass? Is that true?

No.

Sanjay
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post #722 of 1296 Old 02-26-2012, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by dsmith901 View Post

Not to change topics, but that SMR thread said that early MC-12 models did not have pure analog bypass? Is that true? If so, please can someone give me the serial numbers where that changed? My JBL Synthesis AV-1 has an excellent analog bypass; I would be shocked to find that a used MC-12 I might buy did not have the same. Can anyone confirm?

Sanjay's response of "no" is partially true, but not entirely correct. The first release of the MC!2 did NOT have analog bypass. I know, I owned it, and was one of those who protested when it was not included. That was corrected in a firmware release. So all MC12s today have analog bypass. If you happen to buy a used one that doesn't, you only need to upgrade the very old firmware. Don't ask me how it was corrected in firmware and not in hardware, but it was.

Why you'd buy a processor so ancient that it can't pass a 3D or latest HDMI signal is a better question. I have only held on to my MC12HD because I am waiting to see if Lexicon actually releases a completed product; whether it has enough inputs/outputs to accommodate my own system (the MP-20 was seriously deficient in that regard); and what the price is.

If the new processor has enough inputs/outputs and flexibility for my own system, I will make a decision based on the price after subtracting the rebate for an upgrade. Speaking for myself, I'll pay twice the price of the most recent Integra, or roughly $6,000. But not more than that. Many on the SMR web site recommend the Integra, including owners of the MC12. The Integra includes room correction. So my assessment will be that a Lexicon may be worth twice as much, but I can't justify spending more than that. Others may come to a different conclusion when -- and IF -- Lexicon releases a new processor.

In any event, I'll wait until the end of this year for an actual completed unit to be released, and if the unit is not released by then, give up on Lexicon. And probably buy the Integra.

I owned the very first product ever sold by Lexicon, which as I recall, was the CP-1. I have only owned Lexicon since then -- for about 25 years. If they lose a customer like me, they are in sad shape as a company.
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post #723 of 1296 Old 02-26-2012, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty M View Post

The first release of the MC!2 did NOT have analog bypass.

Here is one of the first reviews, published literally within a few months of release:

http://www.hometheater.com/content/l...reampprocessor

"By including a two-channel analog bypass and 5.1-channel inputs (which, of course, also serve as an analog bypass), Lexicon has addressed two major MC-1 issues. Both of these features are currently in high demand, predominantly because of the relatively recent emergence of the SACD and DVD-Audio formats. Considering how new these formats are, it's easy to see why the 5.1 inputs were left off the MC-1 four years ago, but those of us who still feel the occasional itch for vinyl wouldn't have minded the two-channel bypass back then. You can apply the two-channel bypass to any of the analog input pairs via the advanced-settings menu. Both it and the 5.1-channel bypass are true throughput modes that forego all conversion, equalization, processing, and crossover. Turning off the bypass lets you access the MC-12's processing through the analog inputs, which is especially important for the 5.1-channel inputs. Many SACD and DVD-Audio players still don't offer bass management; however, unlike many pre/pros and receivers, the MC-12 will supply this when the bypass is defeated."
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Originally Posted by Marty M View Post

Don't ask me how it was corrected in firmware and not in hardware, but it was.

Check the release notes for the first couple of firmware upgrades (v1.10, v2.0) and see for yourself that there is no mention of 5.1 bypass being added:

http://www.lexicon.com/Products/Details/131

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post #724 of 1296 Old 02-26-2012, 08:16 PM
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The MC 12 always had 5,1 bypass, and the ability to put the 5,1 signal back into the digital domain, enabling the use of bass management, processor based time alignment and most importantly, the powerful Logic 7 decoding modes.

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post #725 of 1296 Old 02-26-2012, 09:06 PM
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Sanjay is correct with regards to analog bypass, and my statement was wrong. I should have checked first! The original interview with Clark references analog bypass, and I believe that interview was published before the unit was ever released. Old age is catching up with me, and my memory was faulty. If I protested something, it was not about analog bypass!

Many thanks to Sanjay and Mike Chafee for correcting the record on that point.
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post #726 of 1296 Old 02-26-2012, 09:30 PM
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Marty,

I was the Lexicon Pro audio rep from 1978 'til Its dissolution and repositioning with DBX and Allen and Heath in Sandy Utah

As the original consumer rep in Florida with three rep of the year awards, tens of millions of dollars in Lexicon sold in my territory, and Hundreds of Lexicon based multichannel systems calibrated I can say that I am sure I didn't learn it all, and you should not be too critical of yourself.

Mike Chafe
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post #727 of 1296 Old 02-26-2012, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty M View Post

If I protested something, it was not about analog bypass!

It was the missing legacy modes.

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post #728 of 1296 Old 02-27-2012, 06:34 AM
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Thanks all. I knew the MC-1 and MC-2 lacked analog bypass of any kind, but always understood the MC-12 (as well as the MC-8 and 4) had that important feature, as do their JBL Synthesis brethren. As to why one would buy an audio processor that did not pass through 3D over HDMI, well maybe it is because I have never used my audio processor to switch video, though I don't dismiss that as a future option. Also, I have absolutely no interest in 3D at this time. Different strokes for different folks. However, I should add I do want HDMI inputs to access HD audio digitally from a BD player, which I understand the MC-12HD will do. After all, the main purpose of an audio surround processor is to process AUDIO!

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post #729 of 1296 Old 02-27-2012, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by dsmith901 View Post

I knew the MC-1 and MC-2 lacked analog bypass of any kind

If you fed a pair of speakers from the Zone2 outputs of the MC-1, analogue sources would pass straight through with only volume control in the signal path. Thats how a few users were able to do an all-analogue stereo set-up and 7.1 home theatre in the same room, each with independent volume control. There's no MC-2.

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post #730 of 1296 Old 02-29-2012, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

If you fed a pair of speakers from the Zone2 outputs of the MC-1, analogue sources would pass straight through with only volume control in the signal path. Thats how a few users were able to do an all-analogue stereo set-up and 7.1 home theatre in the same room, each with independent volume control. There's no MC-2.

Thanks for the correction; don't know why I thought there was an MC-2. Anyway, since the MP-20 is history, is there any solid info on what Lexicon will do for a new processor, assuming they want to stay in the game?

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post #731 of 1296 Old 02-29-2012, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by dsmith901 View Post

Anyway, since the MP-20 is history, is there any solid info on what Lexicon will do for a new processor, assuming they want to stay in the game?

No solid news except for the change to audio-only. Otherwise, details remain same as before: surround processing and room correction already mentioned in press releases, no official word on date and price.

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post #732 of 1296 Old 03-06-2012, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

No solid news except for the change to audio-only. Otherwise, details remain same as before: surround processing and room correction already mentioned in press releases, no official word on date and price.

By "audio only" I assume you mean no video processing, not that it will not have video HDMI switching, right? That would be okie dokie with me, if a lower price comes with it.

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post #733 of 1296 Old 03-06-2012, 03:41 PM
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I don't expect to EVER see a replacement model.
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post #734 of 1296 Old 03-06-2012, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmith901 View Post

By "audio only" I assume you mean no video processing, not that it will not have video HDMI switching, right?

Yes, video passthrough with OSD, just like all their previous pre-pros.

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post #735 of 1296 Old 03-07-2012, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty M View Post

Sanjay's response of "no" is partially true, but not entirely correct. The first release of the MC!2 did NOT have analog bypass. I know, I owned it, and was one of those who protested when it was not included. That was corrected in a firmware release. So all MC12s today have analog bypass. If you happen to buy a used one that doesn't, you only need to upgrade the very old firmware. Don't ask me how it was corrected in firmware and not in hardware, but it was.

Why you'd buy a processor so ancient that it can't pass a 3D or latest HDMI signal is a better question. I have only held on to my MC12HD because I am waiting to see if Lexicon actually releases a completed product; whether it has enough inputs/outputs to accommodate my own system (the MP-20 was seriously deficient in that regard); and what the price is.

If the new processor has enough inputs/outputs and flexibility for my own system, I will make a decision based on the price after subtracting the rebate for an upgrade. Speaking for myself, I'll pay twice the price of the most recent Integra, or roughly $6,000. But not more than that. Many on the SMR web site recommend the Integra, including owners of the MC12. The Integra includes room correction. So my assessment will be that a Lexicon may be worth twice as much, but I can't justify spending more than that. Others may come to a different conclusion when -- and IF -- Lexicon releases a new processor.

In any event, I'll wait until the end of this year for an actual completed unit to be released, and if the unit is not released by then, give up on Lexicon. And probably buy the Integra.

I owned the very first product ever sold by Lexicon, which as I recall, was the CP-1. I have only owned Lexicon since then -- for about 25 years. If they lose a customer like me, they are in sad shape as a company.

Like you, I also have owned Lexicon processors but for only 17 years.. My first was the fossgate (the one after cp-1?). Then the dc1, dc2, mc1 and now mc12 (non hd).
I have a separate post on this forum about comparision to onkyo/integra.. You might want to check on it.. The integra I tried - the first dts hd version - was not even in the league of MC1.. the Mc12 is far superior, even without the hdmi/hd Audio.. just my humble opinion.. So.. don't desert Lexicon (unless a lot has changed - someone wrote that the engineers changed). I liked the Anthem also..
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post #736 of 1296 Old 03-08-2012, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete View Post

I don't expect to EVER see a replacement model.

I wonder as well. I have held on to my MC12HD for years and patiently waited, so I'll wait a little longer. But the age of the MC12HD is really showing. It can't pass 3D, and increasingly has handshake problems with HDMI.

The real question is whether Lexicon will offer an upgrade and rebate from the MC12HD to the next model. Can they afford to do it, since the old MC12HD isn't worth a lot of resale value for dealers? Lexicon has waited so long, that the value of the MC12HD has really depreciated.

Speaking for myself, the price out of my own pocket needs to be no more than double the price of the Integra, or around $6000. So whatever the price of a new unit is, the rebate has to get it down to about that price.

Judging by comments on the SMR forum, there are many current Lexicon owners that will not pay prices as high as $10,000 or more.

Finally, as I noted in an earlier post, the other important question will be whether Lexicon does a better job of designing the new model than they did with the MP-20, which simply lacked the flexibility of the ancient MC12HD. In terms of flexibility, and accommodating existing systems, the MP-20 was a giant step backwards. See the comments posted here:

http://www.smr-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=1887
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post #737 of 1296 Old 03-11-2012, 04:59 PM
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Hello Forum......it has been some time since I last pasted on the forum....boy oh boy...many things have happened!
I have owned a few Lexicon units.......I was highly anticipating their new pre/pro....and now....cancellation!!!%$? After the embarrassing 'pseudo-Oppo'......'rebadged Crown amps.......and now no MP20............this is quite clear to me......can anyone remember PROCEED? I genuinely fear for the future of Lexicon. The indicators aren't good.
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post #738 of 1296 Old 03-12-2012, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty M View Post

But the age of the MC12HD is really showing. It can't pass 3D, and increasingly has handshake problems with HDMI.

How do these "handshake problems" manifest themselves? Does it mean that the MC12HD has audio dropouts or other major *audible* issues with newer BluRays?
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post #739 of 1296 Old 03-12-2012, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

I'm afraid, Mr. Chafee, that without any supporting evidence to support your allegation that there's no engineering budget, in the face of the multiple new Revel speakers introduced at CES, you are subjecting yourself to the melodious appellation "troll."

Roger,

I can vouch for Mike that he is no Troll. He has a wealth of knowledge on both Lexicon, and in regards audio acoustics (more-so). He is well known as an industry expert, and his resume proves it. He has the credentials to speak intelligently on the subject. If Mike shares with me, then I take it to the bank.

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post #740 of 1296 Old 03-12-2012, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim HTPC View Post

Roger,

I can vouch for Mike that he is no Troll. He has a wealth of knowledge on both Lexicon, and in regards audio acoustics (more-so). He is well known as an industry expert, and his resume proves it. He has the credentials to speak intelligently on the subject. If Mike shares with me, then I take it to the bank.

Be that as it may, wrt the post in question, I think the matter was resolved with all parties in agreement.

Roger

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post #741 of 1296 Old 03-12-2012, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter Nielsen View Post

How do these "handshake problems" manifest themselves? Does it mean that the MC12HD has audio dropouts or other major *audible* issues with newer BluRays?

I may have used the wrong term, so let me instead describe the symptoms. The MC12HD is based on HDMI 1.1 or 1.2. (I believe 1.1) First off, it sometimes has problems properly detecting a signal like DTS Master Audio from either the previous generation or current generation Oppo Blu-Ray. I have to periodically switch the inputs several times to get it to sync properly. When it fails to sync, it defaults to L7 Music or L7 Video for two channel sources. In addition, the MC12HD is not able to pass either the audio or video portion of a 3D signal. In addition, when I added two new HDMI 1.3 devices, the problems got worse. Even when using an older projector, it will first not properly detect the audio signal (reverting instead to L7 Film or L7 Music for two track). By switching the inputs several times, I can get it to detect the audio -- and then the screen goes blank and I lose video. I must then go back and forth several more times to get both audio and video.

Some of these symptoms might be caused by a new HDMI 1.3 splitter, to send the single MC12HD output to three devices. But I don't think so. The common element is the MC12HD in all of the above.

OK, if it isn't an "HDMI handshaking" problem, I defer to all of you experts to apply the proper term. My amateur conclusion is that the MC12HD is showing its age, especially since it is based on an old HDMI standard. This will presumably only get worse as HDMI continues to advance.
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post #742 of 1296 Old 03-12-2012, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty M View Post

Some of these symptoms might be caused by a new HDMI 1.3 splitter, to send the single MC12HD output to three devices. But I don't think so.

Please forgive the obvious question but did you try it without the splitter? I would be curious to know..
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post #743 of 1296 Old 03-12-2012, 07:23 PM
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"Even when using an older projector, it will first not properly detect the audio signal (reverting instead to L7 Film or L7 Music for two track)."

When this occurs are you hearing vocals?

Shawn
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post #744 of 1296 Old 03-12-2012, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim HTPC View Post

Roger,

I can vouch for Mike that he is no Troll. He has a wealth of knowledge on both Lexicon, and in regards audio acoustics (more-so). He is well known as an industry expert, and his resume proves it. He has the credentials to speak intelligently on the subject. If Mike shares with me, then I take it to the bank.

Jim

Following up on what Mike posted. I didn't see the MC-20 at the trade shows, but have a question for those who did. Did it have an operating power switch? My understanding is that it couldn't be turned on, suggesting, for a lack of a better term, that it was a mock-up more than an operating unit. It might have been an empty box for all any of us know. It probably was an empty box for that matter.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe our current information on Lexicon plans for the next unit is based *entirely* on what some Lexicon reps told one individual at the same trade show. I don't doubt that the conversation in question has been accurately conveyed, but it is only a conversation with a consumer. Have there been any official postings or statements? Not that I'm aware of, but please correct me with links if there have been. Not here, and not in the SMR forum, which Lexicon monitors and does sometimes post on.

It is more than a little frustrating that Lexicon doesn't have the common courtesy to post on any forum a statement of their future plans. Lexicon has had, and enjoyed, a loyal customer base for years, but they are now testing that loyalty. We hold on to our MC12HDs in the hope they will have a trade-in program, but that hope is now stretched to the limit. We have no official confirmation that they will release a new unit. We have no official confirmation whether that will be in the next year, or the next two years. Or three years. Or whether they will continue their tradition of having a trade-in program.

We, in fact, have no official confirmation of anything. We are simply engaging in blind hope, and possibly naive and misguided faith, that there will be a future Lexicon processor based on one conversation with one consumer at a trade show.

We wait. Lexicon is silent. And we wait. And wait.
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post #745 of 1296 Old 03-12-2012, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Marty M View Post

The MC12HD is based on HDMI 1.1 or 1.2. (I believe 1.1) First off, it sometimes has problems properly detecting a signal like DTS Master Audio from either the previous generation or current generation Oppo Blu-Ray.

DTS-HD Master Audio cannot be transmitted via HDMI 1.1 or 1.2, only HDMI 1.3. Unpack the data in your Oppo BD player and transmit it as PCM to the Lex (it can accept up to 8 channels of 96/24 audio).
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In addition, the MC12HD is not able to pass either the audio or video portion of a 3D signal.

3D can only be transmitted via later version HDMI 1.3 or HDMI 1.4. The Oppo 3D player has two HDMI outs: use the main output to send 3D video to your 3D display and use the second HDMI output to send lossless audio to the Lex.
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Some of these symptoms might be caused by a new HDMI 1.3 splitter, to send the single MC12HD output to three devices.

Which of the three devices should the MC-12HD be shaking hands with?
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We wait. Lexicon is silent. And we wait. And wait.

Then don't wait.

Sanjay
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post #746 of 1296 Old 03-12-2012, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

"Even when using an older projector, it will first not properly detect the audio signal (reverting instead to L7 Film or L7 Music for two track)."

When this occurs are you hearing vocals?

Shawn

I just tried to repeat the symptoms to better answer Shawn's question, but as luck would have it, everything now works fine. It is an intermittent problem. Of course, it usually happens when I'm entertaining guests. When I try to recreate the problem to respond to Shawn, everything works perfectly. If Shawn visits my home theater, as a guest, I'm sure the problem will reappear with a vengeance. And if Shawn was the 12 year old son of a friend of mine, with little patience, it is absolutely guaranteed to happen.

Shawn is asking the right question, which might help Shawn and others better diagnose the problem. No, there are no vocals. That's how the problem always manifests itself -- the center channel is gone. As I recall, the MC12 is on L7 Music or Film, but there are no vocals, because the 5.1 center is missing. The player is apparently sending a 5.1 signal, but the MC12HD can't process the center. So I switch back and forth until it finally locks on 5.1mc and the center returns. Does that make sense?

This used to only affect audio. Now it affects audio and video. And of course, the MC12HD can't process either the audio or video signal of 3D.
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post #747 of 1296 Old 03-12-2012, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Unpack the data in your Oppo BD player and transmit it as PCM to the Lex

Already set it up to transmit LPCM. That was the recommended setup from day one on the MC12HD.

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The Oppo 3D player has two HDMI outs: use the main output to send 3D video to your 3D display and use the second HDMI output to send lossless audio to the Lex.

Also, already done. However, the MC12HD can't process high definition audio when part of a 3D signal. You must send the video directly to the display, and use coax or optical to send 5.1 as audio to the Lexicon. Also, as additional clarification, the issues I described in my early post occur when sending 2D via HDMI to the Lexicon, using LPCM.

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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Then don't wait.

You are nothing if not consistent. You're a Defender of the Lexicon Holy Grail to the very end. Since Lexicon apparently disclosed their Top Secret plans to only one person on the face of the earth, they chose the right person. You are a True Believer to the end.
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post #748 of 1296 Old 03-12-2012, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by audvid View Post

Please forgive the obvious question but did you try it without the splitter? I would be curious to know..

Good question. The problem of losing the sync to audio, and losing the center, has happened with three different splitters from three different manufacturers. One of the splitters was two or three years old, so not of the latest HDMI specs. And, as I recall, it happened without the splitter. It happens specifically with 2D sent over HDMI.

So the splitter is not the problem.

The additional problem, of first losing the center audio, and then the video, started with the addition of a new splitter, so the video aspect might be related to that.
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post #749 of 1296 Old 03-13-2012, 01:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Marty M View Post

Already set it up to transmit LPCM.

Then how could it have "problems properly detecting a signal like DTS Master Audio" when you aren't transmitting DTS Master Audio?
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Originally Posted by Marty M View Post

You're a Defender of the Lexicon Holy Grail to the very end.

You are a True Believer to the end.

Wow, resorting to ad hominem attacks just because I suggested NOT waiting for the next Lex. Besides, how does steering you away from Lexicon make me a "True Believer"?

Sanjay
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post #750 of 1296 Old 03-13-2012, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Marty M View Post

Also, already done. However, the MC12HD can't process high definition audio when part of a 3D signal. You must send the video directly to the display, and use coax or optical to send 5.1 as audio to the Lexicon.

I thought that you could configure the Oppo so that the 3D signal is turned off on HDMI port #2 and it's just sending a black image when using it to carry Audio only. However, I just had a look at the manual and can't find such info... Can Oppo 93/95 be configured to do this, or will it always have program video on the 2nd port too?
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