Any one see the Lexicon MC-12HD replacement at CES? - Page 27 - AVS Forum
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post #781 of 1296 Old 03-29-2012, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

What HDMI handshake problems?


I was referring to post #736 in this thread.

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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

As for 7.1, if you decode in the player, the MC-12HD accepts 8 channels of (up to) 96/24 audio.

Really!? Is this something that was added after the fact? Reading the manual, all I could find (last time I looked) was inputs for 5.1. Where do you physically connect the rear surround inputs on the back panel of the MC-12HD (or SDP-40HD) ?

Or do you mean when using LPCM over HDMI? That works, but it does not rule out any possible HDMI problems...
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post #782 of 1296 Old 03-29-2012, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Peter Nielsen View Post

Really!? Is this something that was added after the fact? Reading the manual, all I could find (last time I looked) was inputs for 5.1. Where do you physically connect the rear surround inputs on the back panel of the MC-12HD (or SDP-40HD) ?

Or do you mean when using HDMI with LPCM? This does not avoid any possible HDMI problems...

He's talking about LPCM via HDMI. The multichannel analog input still only supports 5.1.
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post #783 of 1296 Old 03-29-2012, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Nielsen View Post

I was referring to post #736 in this thread.

The only HDMI problem mentioned in that post is that it can't pass 3D, which is understandable for a HDMI device from six years ago. Can you list the HDMI handshake problems?

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post #784 of 1296 Old 03-30-2012, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

The only HDMI problem mentioned in that post is that it can't pass 3D, which is understandable for a HDMI device from six years ago. Can you list the HDMI handshake problems?

See post #741. I'm concerned, because I'm considering dumping my TacT Audio TCS Mk III and replacing it with a JBL SDP-40HD, which I tought would be a proven and trouble free solution until I heard about the possible handshake issues.

My TCS Mk III has HDMI handshake/sync problems with the Oppo93/95 LPCM over HDMI, which results in all audio disappearing for a second, or worse, making the TCS go completely silent on all inputs and requiring a power cycle. In two years Boz has still not fixed the issue, so I'm about to give up on it...
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post #785 of 1296 Old 03-30-2012, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Peter Nielsen View Post

See post #741.

In that post the problem seems to be with DTS-HD MA and 3D signals, both of which HDMI 1.1 cannot transmit. Not a "handshake" problem, any more than trying to pass multi-channel PCM via S/PDIF is a handshake problem.

Peter, I'll ask for a third time: what HDMI handshake problems? Can you actually describe what they are?

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post #786 of 1296 Old 03-30-2012, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

In that post the problem seems to be with DTS-HD MA and 3D signals, both of which HDMI 1.1 cannot transmit. Not a "handshake" problem, any more than trying to pass multi-channel PCM via S/PDIF is a handshake problem.

Peter, I'll ask for a third time: what HDMI handshake problems? Can you actually describe what they are?

I suspect some follow-up questions are needed to clarify what the poster is saying in post #741. For example:

"sometimes has problems properly detecting a signal like DTS Master Audio"

If he's truly trying to bitstream DTS Master Audio, it should NEVER work with the MC12HD. Writing that it sometimes has problems implies that he has the Oppo properly set to convert the audio to LPCM, but we can't know for sure without clarification. If there are intermittent handshake issues with content the MC12HD should be able to handle, then there's certainly a reason to be concerned.

Personally though, I see it as a moot point as if I were in the market to buy a brand new surround processor today, the MC12HD wouldn't even be a consideration given the age of the platform, the cost, and how Lexicon can't seem to get their act together to release a new platform.
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post #787 of 1296 Old 03-30-2012, 12:17 PM
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Personally though, I see it as a moot point as if I were in the market to buy a brand new surround processor today, the MC12HD wouldn't even be a consideration given the age of the platform, the cost, and how Lexicon can't seem to get their act together to release a new platform.

No disagreement there. Despite having HDMI grafted on 6 years ago, the platform itself is 11 years old. So I wasn't trying to convince Peter to buy it, just curious what he thinks the HDMI handshake problems are.

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post #788 of 1296 Old 03-30-2012, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Peter to buy it, just curious what he thinks the HDMI handshake problems are.

I don't have a clue what problems the Lex 12HD may have. Frankly, I thought it would be 100% trouble free. Also, I did not expect it to be able to handle 3D signals.

HOWEVER, I would expect it to handle LPCM Audio Only HDMI from Oppo 95 (or 93) HDMI port #2 without trouble.

Marty said he had handshake problems, and throughout the different posts he maintained that he has tried the option to LPCM pass audio only (Oppo HDMI #2) and still saw a problem. (This whole discussion was never completed though, because someone yelled off-topic...)

I'd hate to spend the money on another processor, just to get a new can of worms. I've had enough of those. (I'm burnt. Recently I got a Mopar iPod kit for my SRT-10, which turned out to be a can of worms too. Nothing works right these days, it seems...)
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post #789 of 1296 Old 03-30-2012, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter Nielsen View Post

Marty said he had handshake problems, and throughout the different posts he maintained that he has tried the option to LPCM pass audio only (Oppo HDMI #2) and still saw a problem.

I'll ask for the fourth time: what were the HDMI handshake problems? You keep repeating that there are problems, but I can't seem to get you to describe a single one.

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post #790 of 1296 Old 03-30-2012, 06:36 PM
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Could you guys perhaps take this to another thread? It's getting tiresome...
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post #791 of 1296 Old 04-02-2012, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Seems more like a reaction to removing built-in video processing rather than being the reason they eliminated that feature. For future Synthesis customers who want a complete 'system' that includes audio and video processing, they've now got the latter covered.

Yeah, that's probably the better way of looking at it.

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post #792 of 1296 Old 04-03-2012, 04:59 AM
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There were several HDCP issues with the Oppo. To my knowledge, those have been corrected.

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post #793 of 1296 Old 04-04-2012, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

No disagreement there. Despite having HDMI grafted on 6 years ago, the platform itself is 11 years old. So I wasn't trying to convince Peter to buy it, just curious what he thinks the HDMI handshake problems are.

The physical platform is 11 years old but it has been updated by firmware several times and added the latest matrix formats and will decode anything except HD audio. There is a lot more to audio quality than the latest and greatest platform, and I am highly doubtful that there is a better sounding processor being made today than the MC Lexicons even with their "dated" platform. I have owned a lot of "newer" processors, including Cary's ill-conceived effort and Proceed AVP2 (the one with the expensive ML processing) and IMO they were nowhere near the audio quality of the Lexicon/JBL Synthesis. Last year the Cannes Film Festival chose the JBL Synthesis AV-1 (the same unit I own, same as the MC-4) as the processor in the main viewing hall. They could have used something "newer" and even more expensive no doubt, but I think they know what they are doing. The MC platform may be "dated" but IMO it is still the best thing out there, and when they do update it to process HD audio and a few more channels along with SOTA EQ it will again be undisputed top dog. Until then, I ain't going anywhere unless I stumble upon a great deal on a current HDMI Lex/JBL.

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post #794 of 1296 Old 04-04-2012, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by dsmith901 View Post

The physical platform is 11 years old but it has been updated by firmware several times and added the latest matrix formats and will decode anything except HD audio. There is a lot more to audio quality than the latest and greatest platform, and I am highly doubtful that there is a better sounding processor being made today than the MC Lexicons even with their "dated" platform. I have owned a lot of "newer" processors, including Cary's ill-conceived effort and Proceed AVP2 (the one with the expensive ML processing) and IMO they were nowhere near the audio quality of the Lexicon/JBL Synthesis. Last year the Cannes Film Festival chose the JBL Synthesis AV-1 (the same unit I own, same as the MC-4) as the processor in the main viewing hall. They could have used something "newer" and even more expensive no doubt, but I think they know what they are doing. The MC platform may be "dated" but IMO it is still the best thing out there, and when they do update it to process HD audio and a few more channels along with SOTA EQ it will again be undisputed top dog. Until then, I ain't going anywhere unless I stumble upon a great deal on a current HDMI Lex/JBL.

IMHO MC12HD is still the best !
Easy to configure, powerful tools to sculpt the soundstage, and near bullit proof reliability .

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post #795 of 1296 Old 04-04-2012, 04:31 PM
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...Proceed AVP2 (the one with the expensive ML processing) and IMO they were nowhere near the audio quality of the Lexicon/JBL Synthesis.

No surprise there. The AVP2 had the expensive ML dual/diff DACs in the front L/R channels; the MC-12 has them in all 12 channels.
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The MC platform may be "dated" but IMO it is still the best thing out there

The "best" at what? Format decoding? Connectivity? Room correction? Stating that the platform is 11 years old doesn't mean I don't like it, otherwise I wouldn't currently own one. It happens to fit my personal needs better than anything else on the market currently. But that doesn't blind me to advances in things like room correction that have taken place over the last 8 years since Lexicon introduced that feature to the MC-12. Which is why I occasionally mention it in the context of its age.

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post #796 of 1296 Old 04-07-2012, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

No surprise there. The AVP2 had the expensive ML dual/diff DACs in the front L/R channels; the MC-12 has them in all 12 channels. The "best" at what? Format decoding? Connectivity? Room correction? Stating that the platform is 11 years old doesn't mean I don't like it, otherwise I wouldn't currently own one. It happens to fit my personal needs better than anything else on the market currently. But that doesn't blind me to advances in things like room correction that have taken place over the last 8 years since Lexicon introduced that feature to the MC-12. Which is why I occasionally mention it in the context of its age.

Still the best overall sound quality - and IMO that is what it is all about. EQ and room correction are a good idea in principal but I have read a lot of knowledgable people say they prefer a well designed room with well placed multiple subwoofers. No doubt a real pro with the right equipment and training could do good things with EQ, but I am not so sure that for the typical consumer it is not more hype than real substance, and in many cases may actually degrade sound quality. And of course for 2 ch listening I am not sure it is even needed if your room is decent acoustically and your speakers are properly placed. Perhaps a amp/speaker approach such as the dARTS system used by Phase Technology is worthwhile in a full-scale (read expensive) cinema, but it is a professionally engineered system for a specific cinema venue that cost more than most people spend on their entire house. Maybe when I win the next MegaBall!

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post #797 of 1296 Old 04-07-2012, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

I'll ask for the fourth time: what were the HDMI handshake problems? You keep repeating that there are problems, but I can't seem to get you to describe a single one.

I can't describe any problems, because I DON'T OWN ONE! I'm looking to buy one after getting BURNT by TacT!

I posed similar questions before buying TacT amplifiers back in 2006, and nobody told me the problems back then. I think I better avoid another déjÃ* vu...
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post #798 of 1296 Old 04-08-2012, 01:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Peter Nielsen View Post

I can't describe any problems

And yet you're convinced it has those problems. Anyone trying that hard to find excuses to not buy an MC-12HD really shouldn't be considering an MC-12HD. Better instead to buy a pre-pro you believe to be problem free.

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post #799 of 1296 Old 04-08-2012, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by dsmith901 View Post

Still the best overall sound quality

How did you measure that? What did you compare it to?
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EQ and room correction are a good idea in principal but I have read a lot of knowledgable people say they prefer a well designed room with well placed multiple subwoofers.

One doesn't preclude the other; i.e., it's not an either/or situation. EQ isn't a replacement for good acoustics, it is for situations where you can't achieve the desired results with acoustics alone.
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No doubt a real pro with the right equipment and training could do good things with EQ, but I am not so sure that for the typical consumer it is not more hype than real substance, and in many cases may actually degrade sound quality.

Lex took the opposite approach, investing heavily in room correction "hype" since they were unable to include "a well designed room with well placed multiple subwoofers" and "a real pro with the right equipment and training" in the box.

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post #800 of 1296 Old 04-09-2012, 04:41 AM
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A well designed and treated room goes a long way. There is a very long list of room induced problems in any audio space that no digital room correction device can fix (doesn't mean the room correction device cannot make the system sound different, and, when lucky, better).

As Sanjay noted, speakers and equipment do not come with a "well designed room" in the box. Consumers historically have been led down the non-sense path that totally awesome speakers, electronics, and green felt tipped pens can solve all your problems. Not true.

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post #801 of 1296 Old 04-09-2012, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

And yet you're convinced it has those problems.

I'm not convinced it has problems, but I am worried. I was hoping that some more Googling would put the issue to rest. Unfortunately not so. All I found was more open ends: http://www.smr-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=777

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Anyone trying that hard to find excuses to not buy an MC-12HD really shouldn't be considering an MC-12HD.

On the contrary: I'm trying to find an excuse to buy this old platform (which some may consider outdated). If it works flawlessly, that's a good excuse.

If a long time MC-12HD and Oppo 93 (or 95) owner can confirm that LPCM audio over HDMI does work trouble free (at least when used via Audio only/HDMI#2), that would be of great help.

I don't care about HDMI video, video switching etc. As long as it can properly and without hiccups handle one simple feed of LPCM audio only sent by the Oppo through HDMI #2 all is good.
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post #802 of 1296 Old 04-09-2012, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Peter Nielsen View Post

If a long time MC-12HD and Oppo 93 (or 95) owner can confirm that LPCM audio over HDMI does work trouble free (at least when used via Audio only/HDMI#2), that would be of great help.

We have been using its JBL Synthesis version (http://www.jblsynthesis.com/Products/Category/18) with those Oppo players for months and it worked fine. We did have one projector that had trouble sometimes when we switched inputs on the unit. But a different projector brand we are using now (Sim2) has no problems at all.

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I don't care about HDMI video, video switching etc. As long as it can properly and without hiccups handle one simple feed of LPCM audio only sent by the Oppo through HDMI #2 all is good.

We only saw the above issue when switching inputs so if you are not doing that (or have a different display than we did), then it should be fine.

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post #803 of 1296 Old 04-14-2012, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

How did you measure that? What did you compare it to? One doesn't preclude the other; i.e., it's not an either/or situation. EQ isn't a replacement for good acoustics, it is for situations where you can't achieve the desired results with acoustics alone. Lex took the opposite approach, investing heavily in room correction "hype" since they were unable to include "a well designed room with well placed multiple subwoofers" and "a real pro with the right equipment and training" in the box.

I "measure" sound quality using my ears (the only thing that matters to me), and I have owned a number of "high end" pre/pros and analog preamps (Bryston, Proceed, Bel Canto, Cary, Plinius, Citation, Lexicon, among others). I place a high premium on 2 ch performance and the best I have heard is the preamp section of my Benchmark DAC-1. I was so impressed with the Benchmark I posted a special review of it in the Audio 2 ch forum. The Lexicon (JBL Synthesis in my case) 2 ch bypass is the closest thing to the Benchmark I have heard, and better than any of the above listed pre/pros. I have begged Benchmark to make a more full-featured DAC/pre with more inputs and user friendly that would allow me to integrate it easily into my HT system but so far they don't feel so inclined, so I just use the Benchmark's DAC and the JBL 2 ch bypass. Others are free to have their own opinion, of course.

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post #804 of 1296 Old 04-14-2012, 07:56 PM
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Let's not overlook Logic 7.

It has many adjustable parameters, including steering, channel balance, surround bandwitdth and surround arrival time offset, which are implemented in real time, giving the system tuner powerful tools to sculpt the soundfield.


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post #805 of 1296 Old 04-14-2012, 08:57 PM
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I "measure" sound quality using my ears

Then it's your subjective preference, not something that's objectively the "best".

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post #806 of 1296 Old 04-23-2012, 02:41 PM
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Then it's your subjective preference, not something that's objectively the "best".

True, and since in the end it is all about what each of us hears, then other than standard test measurements there is no way to say what is "best." I began my audio hobby as a strict "objectivist" paying homage to Julian Hirsch, Peter Aczel, and David Rich, et al, and I still have the utmost respect for their knolwedge and judgment. I chose my speakers (Digital Phase) primarily because of the late Dr. Hirsch's recommendation and have zero regrets. Even so, as my experience in audio grew and my listening skills improved (or changed?) I found myself hearing surprises that could not be accounted for by the objective factoids. I do hear differences in power amps, which is why I went through a dozen or so before finding what IMO sounded "best," (Roger Sanders ESL, in my case the Innersound). Likewise, I bought and tried a dozen or so preamps and processors before finding the JBL AV-1 that sounds so "right" in everything it does. I won't even discuss the Benchmark DAC, which is so widely praised, and it's measurements so close to perfect, that it's merits are beyond question. Yes, I hear differences in DACs too, which many EEs say is unlikely. I even heard an improvement when I went from a CD player to a HDD based media server.

So, yes, everything I post here is my opinion, and you are free to dismiss it as such. But if you dismiss everyone's opinion, no matter how well researched and experienced, then all you are left with is numbers, and as I and many others have found, numbers don't always tell you exactly what you will hear. If they did, "perfection" in audio would have been achieved a long time ago, and we would all be listening to the same equipment.

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post #807 of 1296 Old 04-23-2012, 04:28 PM
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True, and since in the end it is all about what each of us hears, then other than standard test measurements there is no way to say what is "best."

True, which is why I state my personal preference rather than make hyperbolic claims of what is "best".

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post #808 of 1296 Old 04-23-2012, 05:32 PM
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That being said, we can measure when equipment is poorly designed. Measurements also tells us when the differences we hear have little to do with magic black arts in audio design, and are more related to equipment behaving like eqs (single ended amps with high output impedances, and other anomalies). Also comparisons can tell us if the differences experienced by some listeners likely pertain to expectations (whether conscious or subconscious) rather than actual differences (be they experienced as subtle or significant).

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence, than it does knowledge. Charles Darwin
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post #809 of 1296 Old 04-23-2012, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by dsmith901 View Post

I found myself hearing surprises that could not be accounted for by the objective factoids.

I had similar experiences.

Curious if you've tested your results by blind testing (I haven't, so can only claim opinion at this point).

Noah
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post #810 of 1296 Old 05-10-2012, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

I had similar experiences.

Curious if you've tested your results by blind testing (I haven't, so can only claim opinion at this point).

No, sorry I have not. But then I have doubts about blind tests anyway. You properly test audio equipment using test equipment designed for that prupose including spectral analysis. You test human hearing with blind tests; blind tests tell you very little if anything about audio equipment. Besides, I pride myself on being able to judge what I hear based strictly on my ears and not my eyes, which is why I tried and passed on some of the biggest names in audio. Most of the "surprises" I heard were when I was not even "testing" anything or trying to hear changes but just enjoying my usual listening session and then wondering what the hell was going on. As for the "best" rating that is of course my own judgement based on proper testing by experts that support what I hear and after having owned and heard a lot of high end stuff to which I can make a comparison. I have spent the past 15 years buying and selling audio equipment trying to find "better" because in every case I felt something I was hearing was not right. The only thing that I never swapped out was my Digital Phase speakers because I have yet to find speakers that measure more accurate, with the possible exception of the far more expensive Dunlavys, but then Dunlavy Audio Labs is no-longer in business.

Now, if I may be so bold, can we get back to discussing what Lexicon has in mind as a replacement for the MC-12HD now that the MC-20 is dead? Come on all you insiders, don't be shy. Inquiring minds want to know!

"The truth is out there!"
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