Any one see the Lexicon MC-12HD replacement at CES? - Page 28 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+) > Any one see the Lexicon MC-12HD replacement at CES?
filecat13's Avatar filecat13 11:54 AM 05-10-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmith901 View Post

Now, if I may be so bold, can we get back to discussing what Lexicon has in mind as a replacement for the MC-12HD now that the MC-20 is dead? Come on all you insiders, don't be shy. Inquiring minds want to know!

Referring back to your JBL AV1 comment (I have an SDP-5, essentially the same product), Harman's last "new' Lexicon was the MV-5 (JBL AV2, of which I have two) which introduced HDMI, 7.1 analog inputs, USB, and, okay, The Bridge.

I really wanted 7.1 analog in, which the SDP-5 didn't have, and neither did the SDP-40. That alone was enough for me to move from the SDP-5 to the AV2.

Since the HDMI was stuck at 1.1 in the AV2 and limited to 1080i output, that wasn't too compelling for video. I prefer HDMI straight to the PJ anyhow.

The fact that it accepted HDMI audio in but could not decode HD audio was kind of defeating, too, though obviously any decent Bluray player could do that.

The USB is potentially cool, unless you're a Mac owner. So, hey, no cigar there either.

I like sticking my iPod in The Bridge and controlling it from afar, but the UI is weak, and as I recall you can't get the digital stream from it, only the analog one.

There's also a mic and unnamed auto set up, but I took a different calibration route.

I do like the way the unit "sounds."

All of that is to say, since the MC-20 is dead, what are the odds that a retreat to MV-5/AV2 territory could yield a path forward for Lexicon. I know the units were derided for being Chinese and HK AVRs without amps, but I find the unit pretty satisfying, given its several shortcomings. Eliminate the unneeded video stuff, beef up the audio section, fix the freaking USB and iPod stuff, offer a balanced model, figure out if the customers that will actually buy it want auto-EQ or will want a calibrator anyway, put a nice billet face on it...

This is why I'm a consumer and not a designer or an engineer.
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Bulldogger's Avatar Bulldogger 01:17 PM 05-12-2012
No news? Things are awefully quite??
filecat13's Avatar filecat13 10:37 PM 05-12-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

No news? Things are awefully quite??

Maybe my stupid comment killed the thread, though in the end it's no stupider than speculating about what Lexicon might do since we don't have a frickin' clue.

We do have our dreams, however...
sfogg's Avatar sfogg 06:36 AM 05-13-2012
"I really wanted 7.1 analog in, which the SDP-5 didn't have, and neither did the SDP-40. That alone was enough for me to move from the SDP-5 to the AV2."

I can fix that.

Shawn
Peter Nielsen's Avatar Peter Nielsen 04:13 PM 05-13-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

"I really wanted 7.1 analog in, which the SDP-5 didn't have, and neither did the SDP-40. That alone was enough for me to move from the SDP-5 to the AV2."

I can fix that.

Shawn, that's very interesting! Sounds like you have an 8ch input mod for the SDP-40 (MC-12)?
sfogg's Avatar sfogg 05:56 PM 05-13-2012
Peter,

Yes, on the MC-12 it is for when analog bypass is on. When you are applying processing to the multichannel input that remains a 6 channel input.

Shawn
dsmith901's Avatar dsmith901 02:50 PM 05-25-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by filecat13 View Post

Referring back to your JBL AV1 comment (I have an SDP-5, essentially the same product), Harman's last "new' Lexicon was the MV-5 (JBL AV2, of which I have two) which introduced HDMI, 7.1 analog inputs, USB, and, okay, The Bridge.

I really wanted 7.1 analog in, which the SDP-5 didn't have, and neither did the SDP-40. That alone was enough for me to move from the SDP-5 to the AV2.

Since the HDMI was stuck at 1.1 in the AV2 and limited to 1080i output, that wasn't too compelling for video. I prefer HDMI straight to the PJ anyhow.

The fact that it accepted HDMI audio in but could not decode HD audio was kind of defeating, too, though obviously any decent Bluray player could do that.

The USB is potentially cool, unless you're a Mac owner. So, hey, no cigar there either.

I like sticking my iPod in The Bridge and controlling it from afar, but the UI is weak, and as I recall you can't get the digital stream from it, only the analog one.

There's also a mic and unnamed auto set up, but I took a different calibration route.

I do like the way the unit "sounds."

All of that is to say, since the MC-20 is dead, what are the odds that a retreat to MV-5/AV2 territory could yield a path forward for Lexicon. I know the units were derided for being Chinese and HK AVRs without amps, but I find the unit pretty satisfying, given its several shortcomings. Eliminate the unneeded video stuff, beef up the audio section, fix the freaking USB and iPod stuff, offer a balanced model, figure out if the customers that will actually buy it want auto-EQ or will want a calibrator anyway, put a nice billet face on it...

This is why I'm a consumer and not a designer or an engineer.


I mean no offense, but it is generally known among Lexicon owners that the only true Lexicon designed pre/pro with HDMI switching is the MC-12HD or it's JBL Synthesis equivalent, the SDP-40HD. The MV-5 and AV2 are asian sourced models built for Lexicon that use preamp sections based on Harman Kardon receivers, which are good but that definitely are not Lexicon level quality. If you enjoy these models then all is good and no apologies are needed, but just be aware that they are not considered full-fledged Lexicon products.
filecat13's Avatar filecat13 10:46 PM 05-25-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmith901 View Post

I mean no offense, but it is generally known among Lexicon owners that the only true Lexicon designed pre/pro with HDMI switching is the MC-12HD or it's JBL Synthesis equivalent, the SDP-40HD. The MV-5 and AV2 are asian sourced models built for Lexicon that use preamp sections based on Harman Kardon receivers, which are good but that definitely are not Lexicon level quality. If you enjoy these models then all is good and no apologies are needed, but just be aware that they are not considered full-fledged Lexicon products.

Hence my comment "derided for being Chinese and HK AVRs without amps."

No offense taken.
G-Rex's Avatar G-Rex 07:10 PM 05-31-2012
Well, I was once again getting the itch to replace my Lexicon MC12B. I have been hearing dealers say Lexicon's processor days are over. It was a bit unsettling. So I figured I would call a contact at Harmon to get some info. New info would be the only way I would continue to hold out. I got some info that is a bit encouraging (if accurate). The good news is the new processor is being vigorously worked on. As we know, no video processing, but otherwise similar to the now defunct MP20. He said it will likely be shown at Cedia 2012 in Sept, with a projected release date of late 4th quarter 2012 or 1st quarter 2013. I was also starting to think the MC12 was Lexicon's last processor, but now it does't look that way. Anyone with new info please post as it makes the wait more tolerable.
audioguy's Avatar audioguy 07:51 PM 05-31-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

Well, I was once again getting the itch to replace my Lexicon MC12B. I have been hearing dealers say Lexicon's processor days are over. It was a bit unsettling. So I figured I would call a contact at Harmon to get some info. New info would be the only way I would continue to hold out. I got some info that is a bit encouraging (if accurate). The good news is the new processor is being vigorously worked on. As we know, no video processing, but otherwise similar to the now defunct MP20. He said it will likely be shown at Cedia 2012 in Sept, with a projected release date of late 4th quarter 2012 or 1st quarter 2013. I was also starting to think the MC12 was Lexicon's last processor, but now it does't look that way. Anyone with new info please post as it makes the wait more tolerable.

If it has the audio processing that was demoed at last years CEDIA, it will be worth the wait and a huge home run. If it does not, then it has a chance of just being yet another good SSP -- and that would be a huge disappointment.
sdurani's Avatar sdurani 07:59 PM 05-31-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

I got some info that is a bit encouraging (if accurate).

I've always thought it was a matter of when, not if (as the dealers you've spoken to would suggest). Harman has invested lots of time, effort and money into developing new surround processing and room correction (both of which were demonstrated at CEDIA last year). After expending all those resources, I doubt they would simply give up and toss all that research on the shelf indefinitely. They're a business, first and foremost. So, even if just for business reasons, it is a matter of time before those technolgies are available to consumers for purchase in the form of pre-pros and receivers; if for no other reason then to recoup the cost of that research.
Bulldogger's Avatar Bulldogger 01:42 AM 06-01-2012
I have another source that confirms G-Rex. Very credible source.
Sakuma's Avatar Sakuma 02:46 AM 06-01-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

I've always thought it was a matter of when, not if (as the dealers you've spoken to would suggest). Harman has invested lots of time, effort and money into developing new surround processing and room correction (both of which were demonstrated at CEDIA last year). After expending all those resources, I doubt they would simply give up and toss all that research on the shelf indefinitely. They're a business, first and foremost. So, even if just for business reasons, it is a matter of time before those technolgies are available to consumers for purchase in the form of pre-pros and receivers; if for no other reason then to recoup the cost of that research.

So you guys have heard the next Lexicon, Do you think it is well worth the wait?
Bulldogger's Avatar Bulldogger 03:22 AM 06-01-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakuma View Post


So you guys have heard the next Lexicon, Do you think it is well worth the wait?

It's still 6-9 months from delivery.
dsmith901's Avatar dsmith901 08:06 AM 06-01-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

It's still 6-9 months from delivery.

I for one can easily live without video processing, which never made a lot of sense to me in an audio processor. Switching is okay, but I don't even need that. Hopefully the new model will knock a few thousand off the MSRP mentioned for the MP-20, which would certainly improve it's marketability. I will start saving my pennies now.
Bulldogger's Avatar Bulldogger 08:32 AM 06-01-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmith901 View Post


I for one can easily live without video processing, which never made a lot of sense to me in an audio processor. Switching is okay, but I don't even need that. Hopefully the new model will knock a few thousand off the MSRP mentioned for the MP-20, which would certainly improve it's marketability. I will start saving my pennies now.

I have no idea about a price reduction. My first of three different sources is a dealer. He made the point that removing video actually increased R&D cost.
gsr's Avatar gsr 08:43 AM 06-01-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

He made the point that removing video actually increased R&D cost.

That doesn't make much (if any) sense to me. I suppose there was some redesign needed to remove video capability from the MP-20 platform, but that doesn't sound like a cost that should be passed along to the consumer but rather something that should be handled as an internal loss. You can't reasonably remove functionality from something and keep the cost the same...
sdurani's Avatar sdurani 09:26 AM 06-01-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakuma View Post

So you guys have heard the next Lexicon

No one has. The room correction and surround processing demonstrated at CEDIA was not in a completed unit or prototype.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakuma View Post

Do you think it is well worth the wait?

Depends on whether you are interested in the proprietary technologies in the Lexicon pre-pro. If you're satisfied with licensed surround processing (Dolby PLIIz, DTS Neo:X) and licensed room correction (Audyssey, Trinnov, Dirac), then no need to wait since good solutions are available right now. However, if you're interested in something unique, with capabilities not available in current surround processing and room correction, then it would be worth the wait to hear the proprietary technolgies from Lexicon before deciding.
Peter Nielsen's Avatar Peter Nielsen 11:38 AM 06-01-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

That doesn't make much (if any) sense to me. I suppose there was some redesign needed to remove video capability from the MP-20 platform, but that doesn't sound like a cost that should be passed along to the consumer but rather something that should be handled as an internal loss. You can't reasonably remove functionality from something and keep the cost the same...

It does make sense. Removing the functionality may result in a projection of fewer units sold. In effect, the projected per-unit development cost goes up.

Who pays for "internal losses" ? The internal loss fairy?
gsr's Avatar gsr 06:37 PM 06-01-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Nielsen View Post

It does make sense. Removing the functionality may result in a projection of fewer units sold. In effect, the projected per-unit development cost goes up.

Who pays for "internal losses" ? The internal loss fairy?

Internal losses equate to lower profits at the end of the year (which translates to things like lower raises and smaller bonuses for the employees). But when you F-up on a product release, you can't just "double" (yes, I'm obviously exaggerating) the price of the product to make up for it. And yes, things like lower volume can move the price up.

But if you're designing 2 otherwise identical products from the ground up - one with video processing and one without video processing, it should (obviously, I think ) cost less to design the one without video processing.
filecat13's Avatar filecat13 11:21 PM 06-01-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

Internal losses equate to lower profits at the end of the year (which translates to things like lower raises and smaller bonuses for the employees). But when you F-up on a product release, you can't just "double" (yes, I'm obviously exaggerating) the price of the product to make up for it. And yes, things like lower volume can move the price up.

Plus, if you've jeopardized your reputation with your customer base by missing an important, announced product, you don't increase the risk to that loyalty by essentially telling your customer base:

1. We can't deliver what we promised.
2. We can do something else and it will be better than our current product, but it will take longer and do less than what we originally promised.
3. You will have to be patient with us and wait until we finish, and we can't say for certain when that will be.
4. We will charge you more for being loyal, waiting, and overlooking our failure.


jonathan56's Avatar jonathan56 12:51 PM 06-02-2012
how much better performance will the new MC 12 HD over my current up to date model?
G-Rex's Avatar G-Rex 01:06 PM 06-02-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan56 View Post

how much better performance will the new MC 12 HD over my current up to date model?

Will likely have improved sound quality plus a very advanced QLS sound field processing. This creates a 5 channel sound field above your 5.1 or 7.1 system. To use QLS you will need 5 more smallish speakers with 5 channels of additional amplification. It will have a more advanced room correction...hopefully arcos.
jonathan56's Avatar jonathan56 01:33 PM 06-02-2012
I have Aerial 20T Version 2, matching center, sides and rears in-wall B&W's, 2 velodyne subs (15 and 18), three mark levinson 436's monoblocks for LRC, and two Proceed HPA 2 for sides, and rears. 3 chip runco DLP projector with cinewide lens and curved auto masked stewart screen. Also, QSC unit sound procedding attached to my lexicon MC-12 HD. My room is state of the art, tuned with sound panels all around, absorptive in front, front third, and diffusion sides and rear, combination on ceiling.
Ill still need more smallish speakers and more amplification for that application?
Jon
G-Rex's Avatar G-Rex 02:09 PM 06-02-2012
"Need" no...but if you have QLS in a future Lexicon processor you may want it. If your theater room is large (which mine is) then QLS is very tempting.
jonathan56's Avatar jonathan56 02:28 PM 06-02-2012
I'm sorry if my questions are a bit novice , but what is QLC? Also, you mean, I will add more speakers to my LRC, rears and sides? How does that work?
thanks,
Jon
G-Rex's Avatar G-Rex 03:46 PM 06-02-2012
Yes, 5 new height speakers. The MP20 is now vaporware, but this link discusses QLS.

http://www.audioimages-hifi.com/page...4170698-8.html
sdurani's Avatar sdurani 09:30 PM 06-02-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

It's still 6-9 months from delivery.

Just confirmed this today at T.H.E. Show in Newport Beach. For those not doing the math, nine months takes us past CES 2013.
filecat13's Avatar filecat13 09:50 PM 06-02-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Just confirmed this today at T.H.E. Show in Newport Beach. For those not doing the math, nine months takes us past CES 2013.

Yes, and six months takes us to before Xmas. (I still had to use two hands to do the math.)

We should set up a pool on the actual delivery date.
HomeTheaterGuy74's Avatar HomeTheaterGuy74 10:53 PM 06-02-2012
Let's hope that Harman doesn't run Lexicon into the ground now like they did Infinity...

What a loss...

They also discontinued the Mark Levinson NÂș502 with nothing new in its place...
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