Any one see the Lexicon MC-12HD replacement at CES? - Page 31 - AVS Forum
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Old 08-20-2012, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete View Post

Doesn't Logic7 date back many years to Jim Fosgate and his processors followed by the Citation gear? Has it evolved much since then?
Logic7 has no roots in anything Fosgate did. It was David Greisinger from start to finish.

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Old 08-20-2012, 08:18 PM
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Doesn't Logic7 date back many years to Jim Fosgate and his processors followed by the Citation gear?
You might be thinking of the mid 1990s when Harman owned both Citation and Lexicon. Unfortunately there was no cross pollination, despite two pioneering designers of surround processing being under one roof. Jim Fosgate did Citation's Six-Axis processing and afterwards the Dolby PLII family of processing while David Griesinger did Lexicon's reverb modes (taken from their studio processors) and various Logic7 processing modes.
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Has it evolved much since then?
Since first being introduced in 1994, Logic7 has evolved with almost every pre-pro that Lex released; in fact, it has been updated several times in just the 11 years that the MC-12 has been out.

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Old 08-20-2012, 08:45 PM
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Spoke to my Lexicon Rep today and he said he was optimistic of seeing something at CEDIA coming up.

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Old 08-20-2012, 09:11 PM
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IMHO ... PLIIx is not a bad substitute for Logic 7.

Cheers,
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Old 08-21-2012, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Peter M View Post

IMHO ... PLIIx is not a bad substitute for Logic 7.
It come down to a matter of taste. I know people that prefer PLIIx to Logic7. For them, PLIIx not a substitute for L7, it is their first choice.

My comments earlier had to do with functionality, not preference. For example: if I'm listening to one of my Mercury Living Presence or Nat King Cole 3-channel SACDs, and I want to extract surround information, I can't do that with PLIIx but I can with L7. Likewise, if I'm listening to the 'Dark Side of the Moon' 4-channel DVD-Audio (the Alan Parsons quad mix) and I want to extract a centre channel, I can't do that with PLIIx but I can do that with L7.

It's also useful for 5.1 music titles where the vocals are mixed in the L/R channels to phantom at the centre of the soundstage. L7 can extract those vocals and route them to the centre speaker (along with the contents of the discrete centre channel). No other surround processing does that.

This capability also comes in handy for certain movies, like 'Forrest Gump' and 'Immortal Beloved', which have so little surround information in their 5.1 tracks that they might as well be 3.1 mixes. L7 can extract surround information from the front channels (amount dialed in by user) in order to give a greater surround experience. None of the surround processing from Dolby nor DTS can do that.

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Old 08-21-2012, 09:18 PM
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Hi Sanjay,

I generally overlay PLIIx on everything, and I thought it would work on the first two examples you've given. I have the DSOTM Immersion set so I must try the quad mix you've mentioned and see for myself.

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Old 08-22-2012, 05:34 AM
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Peter / Sanjay, is there any material difference when processing standard two channel redbook CD music material?
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Old 08-22-2012, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Peter M View Post

Hi Sanjay,
I generally overlay PLIIx on everything, and I thought it would work on the first two examples you've given. I have the DSOTM Immersion set so I must try the quad mix you've mentioned and see for myself.
PLII can only be applied to 2-ch signals. So 3- or 4-ch sources are not able to be processed. Content with stereo surrounds can be processed by PLIIx, but only to extract regarding the rear 2 channels, which it expands to 3 or usually 4 outputs (sides and rears).
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Peter / Sanjay, is there any material difference when processing standard two channel redbook CD music material?
They are different animals, yes.

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Old 08-22-2012, 04:03 PM
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"I generally overlay PLIIx on everything, and I thought it would work on the first two examples you've given."

You can overlay PLIIX on the examples Sanjay gave but it will not perform the processing Sanjay explained. In other words on the 3 channel mix if you tried PLIIx on it it would do nothing. On a 4 channel mix it won't steer out a center channel. On something like Forrest Gump it won't steer out additional surround material from the L/R of the 5.1 mix.

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Old 08-22-2012, 04:09 PM
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" is there any material difference when processing standard two channel redbook CD music material?"

Yes, they are different methods of steering with different design goals and as a result sound different on playback. Comparing the two in my room the sense or feel of the acoustic space is a bit different between the two. PLII sounds more like a rectangular room (which my room is). L7 sounds/feels like a bigger space and makes the illusion of 'you are there' more believable.

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Old 08-22-2012, 04:12 PM
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Sanjay,

"if I'm listening to one of my Mercury Living Presence or Nat King Cole 3-channel SACDs, and I want to extract surround information, I can't do that with PLIIx but I can with L7. "

Another fun use for this is when you want to get a little wacky and try something like Meridian's Trifield for L/C/R and use L7 for surround extraction. That can be a really nice sounding combination and makes it clear how much more effective L7s surround extraction is compared to Trifields. Trifield is far too correlated IMO.

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Old 08-22-2012, 04:55 PM
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I tried the DSOTM quad mix and confirmed it behaves as you guys have stated. The sides were expanded to sides and rears but nothing was steered to the centre, so I ended up with 6.0.

This behavior puzzles me ... if it can extract the centre from 2.0 why can't it do the same from the front channels of 4.0 ? It can't be the algorithm ... it must have been a design / implementation decision ???

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Old 08-22-2012, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

Another fun use for this is when you want to get a little wacky and try something like Meridian's Trifield for L/C/R and use L7 for surround extraction.
Ah the thrill of having multiple surround processors in your rack. Trifield's surround extraction has always been a bit too subtle for my tastes, but overall I still prefer it to 2-speaker playback.

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Old 08-22-2012, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter M View Post

This behavior puzzles me ... if it can extract the centre from 2.0 why can't it do the same from the front channels of 4.0 ? It can't be the algorithm ...
It's actually like having two algorithms, both of which only work on 2 input channels. When PLIIx is applied to stereo sources, it sees 2 (main) channels and extracts 7 outputs. When PLIIx is applied to 5.1 sources, it sees 2 (surround) channels and extracts 4 outputs. So when you were using it with the DSotM quad mix, it never saw the front channels and therefore couldn't extract a centre output.

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Old 08-23-2012, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter M View Post

This behavior puzzles me ... if it can extract the centre from 2.0 why can't it do the same from the front channels of 4.0 ? It can't be the algorithm ... it must have been a design / implementation decision ???
Technically, it could do that. It was simply not in the use cases considered. Quad was already dead in 1999.

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Old 08-23-2012, 04:35 PM
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Surely you should have been able to predict DSOTM in quad on Blu-ray !! biggrin.gif
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Old 09-04-2012, 09:45 AM
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The MP-20 was going to be priced at/near the same price as the RS20i. If the Datasat is not an option for "middle-income" users, then by your logic neither is the Lexicon.

I am sure you know that Lexicon has a history of releasing "affordable" models well below the flagship. While the MC-12 was listed for $12,000 the MC-4 could be had for under $4,000, and some dealers even discounted it down to under $2,000. The MC-4 and it's cousin the JBL Synthesis AV-1 that I own, was essentially the same processor with fewer in/outputs and fewer controls and of course no room correction and with no balanced in/outputs. Measured specs were identical to the MC-12. For 99% of my listening, including 2 ch bypass, the MC-4/AV-1 sounds the same as the MC-12. THAT is what I mean by an option for middle-income users. Wake me when Datasat comes out with a sub $4,000 model. On second thought, let's keep on track and talk about the replacement Lexicons.

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Old 09-07-2012, 10:55 PM
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THAT is what I mean by an option for middle-income users.
A unit that is missing HDMI connectivity, has no room correction and is limited to 7.1 channels, a la your MC-4 example? I don't see why Datasat would want to come out with model that left out their main differentiators.

As for Lex doing the same, you likely have a long wait. Their original plan was to release the flagship first, then do an upscale version for Mark Levinson, and then do the lower priced models. Until then, your argument for middle-income users necessitates comparing the RS20i to vaporware.
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On second thought, let's keep on track and talk about the replacement Lexicons.
Would you settle for a news item about one of the technologies going into the replacement Lexicons?

A new version of ARCOS room correction has been announced at CEDIA (along with a new research paper on subwoofer placement by Todd Welti). ARCOS has been in current use on JBL Synthesis systems since April of 2011, and is the room correction technology that will be scaled to future Lex processors, Levinson pre-pros and H/K receivers.

http://harmanhighperformance.blogspot.com/2012/09/harmans-jbl-synthesis-announces-arcos.html
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Friday, September 7, 2012
HARMAN’s JBL Synthesis Announces ARCOS Adaptive Room Correction and Optimization System Updates at CEDIA 2012

INDIANAPOLIS, Indiana — At CEDIA 2012, HARMAN’s JBL Synthesis is announcing it has updated its ARCOS Adaptive Room Correction and Optimization System to Version 2.6 for WindowsXP, which incorporates a number of performance and user interface upgrades for faster operation and improved system calibration. ARCOS is an integrated software and hardware package that provides precise accuracy in setting up and calibrating a JBL Synthesis multichannel audio system.

In related news, HARMAN Research Acoustician, Todd Welti, will be presenting a paper at the 133rd AES Convention detailing new research into the behavior of multiple subwoofers in listening rooms. Thanks to new modeling software that Welti has developed, a larger variety of subwoofer configurations and placements can be modeled more accurately.

In all rooms, there are resonances or room modes that emphasize some frequencies and attenuate others, detracting from in-room frequency response accuracy. ARCOS v2.6 compensates for these irregularities more precisely than ever before and provides time delay correction and other benefits, to achieve flatter frequency response and extraordinary sonic realism.

ARCOS v2.6 offers 10 times faster AutoEQ calculation than previously. The time it takes to calculate a speaker channel’s required EQ compensation with up to 20 bands of parametric EQ is now reduced from over a minute to about six seconds. In addition, the AutoEQ feature now provides an Iterations function that enables the AutoEQ to calculate the multiple interactions involved in the process and get a more accurate room correction answer including how the various EQ bands interact with one another. In addition, the upgrade offers improved AutoEQ settings for better timbre-matching of the left, center and right speakers in a multichannel audio system, for more accurate subwoofer low-pass calibration and more accurate location and correction of room modes via “ringing” out the room.

In a major functionality enhancement, ARCOS now provides native support for more Harman HiQnet-capable devices in addition to the SDEC models already supported. HiQnet is a communications protocol that enables compatible devices to communicate with one another and act in synergy to deliver enhanced performance capabilities. The expansion of HiQnet in ARCOS will enable future expansion into more products and facilitate end-to-end connectivity using a unified system language.

The ARCOS user interface has also been improved. The displays now run up to four times faster, giving graphing updates and user input better smoothness and feel. All graphs can now be zoomed and panned, allowing the user to see much more detail when zeroing in on a “problem” frequency. The legends on the graphs are more legible.

The ability to compare the individual speakers in a system by overlaying their frequency response graphs is greatly improved, as it is now possible to add and remove multiple overlaid channels at once in real time. Additional interface improvements include an improved microphone calibration page, better Help menus for the final listening and source setup steps, better display of speaker crossover functions and JBL Synthesis SDEC4500 and SDEC3000 equalizer/crossover bass management functionality, and many additional enhancements.

The JBL Synthesis ARCOS Adaptive Room Correction and Optimization System is supplied with all the hardware, measurement microphones, software and accessories needed to calibrate a JBL Synthesis multichannel audio system. ARCOS is currently available to all authorized JBL Synthesis dealers and system integrators.
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Old 09-08-2012, 07:33 AM
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So I'm assuming Lexicon has NOTHING of a real product at CEDIA? Sorry but technology announcements do not mean a thing anymore to me. I want a product announced with a release date and a price and a working unit to show off. Until then I'll assume Lexicon is done and will hold onto my MC-8B until it falls apart. Very sad state of affairs for Lexicon, their time for relevance is already about gone and they still have nothing to show us.
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Old 09-08-2012, 09:02 AM
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So I'm assuming Lexicon has NOTHING of a real product at CEDIA?
Zip.

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Old 09-08-2012, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

A new version of ARCOS room correction has been announced at CEDIA (along with a new research paper on subwoofer placement by Todd Welti). ARCOS has been in current use on JBL Synthesis systems since April of 2011, and is the room correction technology that will be scaled to future Lex processors, Levinson pre-pros and H/K receivers.
Those look like very nice improvements in an already very good product. I wonder if they will ever give the consumer access to the tools so that they can calibrate and/or fine tune the system themselves. I realize that for well over 90% of the consumers, this flexibility is useless, and for many of them it is probably a bad idea (it will cause more harm than good), but for some it would be a nice addition.

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Old 09-08-2012, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

As for Lex doing the same, you likely have a long wait. Their original plan was to release the flagship first, then do an upscale version for Mark Levinson, and then do the lower priced models.

Not meaning to single out Harman here, but the high end market must be a lot bigger than I thought.

I'd have thought that the production cost of high end electronics is small compared to the selling price, and that the quickest amortizatoion of the high engineering cost and quickest path to more profits would be with midrange pricing where the market is far larger.

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Old 09-08-2012, 03:44 PM
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Not meaning to single out Harman here, but the high end market must be a lot bigger than I thought.
I'd have thought that the production cost of high end electronics is small compared to the selling price, and that the quickest amortizatoion of the high engineering cost and quickest path to more profits would be with midrange pricing where the market is far larger.

We live in a country with a shrinking middle class, and products are reflecting that. There are exceptions of course, but pricing is largely at one extreme or the other, and with less demand from the middle, manufacturers are going all in on the higher margin top end stuff because for many of the buyers of that stuff, an extra 5 or 10k isn't much of an issue. Meridian is a good example of a company that's pretty much abandoned the mid-market with anything other than their one piece systems

It's too bad that the choices seem so few; the midrange stuff is usually the peak of the value curve.

Back on topic, I'm bummed that there's no timeline for a prepro with Quantum Logic. Heard it at Cedia last year, and left me with the feeling that it's the only tech/processor that makes sense as an upgrade. A slightly better RC system or whatever than what I have now? Would be a lot of money for slight improvement. But QL is a Big Deal and anything but an incremental improvement. Expands what processors can be.
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Old 09-08-2012, 06:06 PM
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Those look like very nice improvements in an already very good product.
Yeah, looks like they made the code more efficient (10x faster calculations, 4x faster graphics), amongst other improvements. Hopefully these improvements will trickle down to future consumer products (Synthesis is custom install). Until then, I'm curious to read Welti's new paper on subwoofer placement.
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I wonder if they will ever give the consumer access to the tools so that they can calibrate and/or fine tune the system themselves.
That would be nice, maybe under an "advanced" tab in the menu (to keep casual users from messing up the sound). Just letting the user shape the target curve would be helpful, though the bass/treble/tilt functions on my current Lex get me pretty close to the sound I want.

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Old 09-08-2012, 06:15 PM
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A slightly better RC system or whatever than what I have now?
I guess that depends on what RC you have now. Compared to 8-year-old room correction that I have on my current Lex, ARCOS would be more than "slightly better". Even compared to more current/sophisticated room corrections, there are some unique features to ARCOS that could make a difference.

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Old 09-08-2012, 06:15 PM
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Zip.
.

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Old 09-08-2012, 09:50 PM
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Those look like very nice improvements in an already very good product. I wonder if they will ever give the consumer access to the tools so that they can calibrate and/or fine tune the system themselves.
There is a mini-control panel for SDEC processors that lets you have full access to all the settings that ARCOS auto programs. Anyone can download and use it. It even exposes the parameters that SFM uses for each sub. So while not quite what you are asking, fair amount of control exists using this tool. Here is the link to it: http://www.jblsynthesis.com/Products/Details/120

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Old 09-09-2012, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

I guess that depends on what RC you have now. Compared to 8-year-old room correction that I have on my current Lex, ARCOS would be more than "slightly better". Even compared to more current/sophisticated room corrections, there are some unique features to ARCOS that could make a difference.

Wasn't commenting specifically on Arcos/Harman; lump in Dirac, Trinnov, and so forth. I don't doubt that they're better than some older RC systems with some unique capabilities -- these are solid evolutionary improvements. QL to me though was revolutionary in the methods and degree to which it sounded better than any other multichannel extraction program. Got me excited to get a new prepro.
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Old 09-10-2012, 12:00 PM
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The technology demo Lexicon puts out aren't going to do anyone any good if they don't have a new product out. Least they can do is license all the new stuff to a company who actually wants to put out a new Pre\pro.
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Old 09-10-2012, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

There is a mini-control panel for SDEC processors that lets you have full access to all the settings that ARCOS auto programs. Anyone can download and use it. It even exposes the parameters that SFM uses for each sub. So while not quite what you are asking, fair amount of control exists using this tool. Here is the link to it: http://www.jblsynthesis.com/Products/Details/120
That sounds useful. Can the user at least create some type of house curves or make slight changes to the calibrated system and save them under user settings? That would seem to address the needs of most tweekers smile.gif

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