Any one see the Lexicon MC-12HD replacement at CES? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 1296 Old 03-27-2011, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

I should have worded that better. I didn't mean to imply that the visual cortex and auditory cortex are the same, only that processing for both takes place in the cerebral cortex.

OK. Actually, there is more to it in that areas concerned with specific entity identifications tend to be multimodal and somewhat apart from the feature identification using individual modalities.

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Also, I had read that early-blind people can sometimes use parts of the visual cortex for things like language processing.

Yup but they are nearly adjacent regions.

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post #182 of 1296 Old 03-27-2011, 08:11 PM
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FWIW, the way the trade in program "worked" when I was trading in my MC-12BEQ for a MC-12HDEQ (balanced) was this:

From the consumer's perspective, you were to get a certain credit against the price of the new unit, assuming the dealer went along with it.

From the dealer's perspective, depending upon the type of unit he was taking in trade, Lexicon would lower the wholesale price of the new unit to the dealer. However, the dealer would then be stuck with selling the unit you traded in.

The wind-up to all of this was for the consumer to get a generous discount off the MSRP, but whether the trade-in program was a "great" deal depended on what you were giving up by sellling the old unit outrightly in the used market, as well as what the net bottom line the dealer was willing to indulge.

All things considered, I will likely return to Lexicon when the new processor gets released, though I can't fathom that it will make sense to buy a used MC-12 just to get the trade-in value. There's enough discretion on the dealer's end, with what will most likely be a 40 point product (i.e., dealer cost is 60% of MSRP), that it makes sense to just deal in cash.

Since the silence of those sworn to secrecy, such as Amir and Kal, is loud enough to surmise that we'll hear something soon enough, I'll keep an eye out as well.

Thanks,

Nick
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post #183 of 1296 Old 03-29-2011, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

Are you suggesting that Marshall McLuhan equated this

With this?

If so, could you please provide me a reference for it, since I don't see the logical connection, and I don't recall Marshall McLuhan ever making the connection.

However, his comment that the medium is the message raises far more interesting insights, especially when considering high-end audio, and the paradigms that pervade it (especially as it pertains to issues of $$$ and assumed performance, testing, and the focus on gear vs software).


I don't think McLuhan ever compared audio formats, rather he primarily compared high resolution visual (TV) to low resolution visual (printed page), and in fact he was more concerned about visual communication than auditory. So I confess the extrapolation of his thinking to audio is mine, not his. But his principal of "cool" vs "hot" perception and the resulting mental/emotional participation should, if valid (and I think it is), hold true to some degree regardless of the medium form, and it is the only reasonable explanation that I am aware of as to why 2 ch listening can often be more emotionally satisfying than multichannel, since 2 ch is "cooler" than multichannel in much the same way a book is "cooler" than a TV program. McLuhan's "the medium is the message" speaks more to cultural shifts of perception of reality resulting from progress(?) or changes in communication forms, a much broader topic, and I think he was revolutionary in his thinking. I wish he was still around to help us better understand the quantum shift in human actions in the age of wireless instant communications that are truly creating his "global village" concept. McLuhan was generations ahead of his time, no doubt.

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post #184 of 1296 Old 03-29-2011, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by dsmith901 View Post

I don't think McLuhan ever compared audio formats... So I confess the extrapolation of his thinking to audio is mine, not his. But his principal of "cool" vs "hot" perception and the resulting mental/emotional participation should, if valid (and I think it is), hold true to some degree regardless of the medium form, and it is the only reasonable explanation that I am aware of as to why 2 ch listening can often be more emotionally satisfying than multichannel

The question as suggested by your prior statement (feel live at the event) is does 2 ch sound more live than MCH, and does McLuhan's theory support your perception. I don't think it does. I don't think hot and cold had anything to do with feeling live at the event. Moreover, if we look at the research performed by Dr. Toole, MCH creates a better experience. Now I don't doubt that you prefer 2 ch for many reasons, but I don't see how they are supported by McLuhan's work (which was you intent if I understood you correctly).

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post #185 of 1296 Old 03-29-2011, 10:15 AM
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If I attend a live concert, already in progress, and approach from the rear doorway, it seems absolutely live. But I still find it better to be seated inside the hall to be totally immersed in the soundfield
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post #186 of 1296 Old 03-29-2011, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

Joel,

The MSRP of the MC-1 was $6,000. During the MC-12 trade in the MC-1 was worth $4,000 as a trade in. That is 67% of the MC-1s original MSRP.

Shawn

Another historical note: at the time of the MC-12 release in 2001, because it represented a significant jump in price point Lexicon broke with both their and industry convention by publicly confirming that a lower cost model (which turned out to be the MC-8) would be coming later and that there would definitely be a trade-in program for it as well. Even though releasing this info could potentially cannibalize MC-12 sales, they did it as a good-faith gesture to owners of older Lexicon processors to help them make an informed decision on their upgrade paths, and they honored their commitment with the subsequent MC-8 trade-in offer. Owners who felt burnt by this were of course free to pursue their choice of cost-effective, customer-focused solutions from other vendors like Tag McLaren and Meridian...

Cheers,
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post #187 of 1296 Old 03-29-2011, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Philip Brandes View Post

Another historical note: at the time of the MC-12 release in 2001, because it represented a significant jump in price point Lexicon broke with both their and industry convention by publicly confirming that a lower cost model (which turned out to be the MC-8) would be coming later and that there would definitely be a trade-in program for it as well. Even though releasing this info could potentially cannibalize MC-12 sales, they did it as a good-faith gesture to owners of older Lexicon processors to help them make an informed decision on their upgrade paths, and they honored their commitment with the subsequent MC-8 trade-in offer.

Lexicon is still doing that. Todd Packer of Harman HPAV had confirmed at SMR Forums that the new processor is indeed a "platform", eventually supporting more than one model (as is typical, the flagship will be the first one released).
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Owners who felt burnt by this were of course free to pursue their choice of cost-effective, customer-focused solutions from other vendors like Tag McLaren and Meridian...

Oooooh, smell that sarcasm. Back in the day, I remember you and I and several other Lex owners praising the engineering that went into the Tag and Meridian pre-pros. Too bad Tag existed on Udo's whim, with customers getting Zucker Punched when the company went poof. And I still like Meridian's proprietary surround processing and room correction, but $16K for a full 7.1 HDMI upgrade must have given even their most loyal custumers pause (makes the $5k Theta HDMI upgrade seem like a bargain by comparison).

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post #188 of 1296 Old 03-29-2011, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Lexicon is still doing that. Todd Packer of Harman HPAV had confirmed at SMR Forums that the new processor is indeed a "platform", eventually supporting more than one model (as is typical, the flagship will be the first one released).

Very true. What was also considerate at the time of the MC-12 rollout was the pledge to offer a trade-in on the lower-cost model, so owners wouldn't have to play a guessing game.


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Oooooh, smell that sarcasm. Back in the day, I remember you and I and several other Lex owners praising the engineering that went into the Tag and Meridian pre-pros. Too bad Tag existed on Udo's whim, with customers getting Zucker Punched when the company went poof. And I still like Meridian's proprietary surround processing and room correction, but $16K for a full 7.1 HDMI upgrade must have given even their most loyal custumers pause (makes the $5k Theta HDMI upgrade seem like a bargain by comparison).

And I still respect the engineering, both in the Tag gear and particularly with Meridian, who can still legitimately claim to be advancing prepro technology. But cost-effective and customer-friendly they were not...

Owners trading up to the MC-12 in 2001 have been able to keep their processors current through timely subsequent upgrades for room EQ, HDMI, etc. for around $10K over a 10-year period. That's a pretty good longevity track record for a prepro, in my opinion.

Cheers,
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post #189 of 1296 Old 04-09-2011, 07:15 PM
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Amir,

Josh Lehman Doc DVD) as well as a seconD dealer sold them at 40% off. My Halcro was 30% off. Both authorized dealers. I've bought many SSPs and Lexicon is always easier to get at s better price. Nothing bad, just my reality.
Hey I'm retired and on a fixed income. How about sharing the names of the dealers that are offering 40% off and is it only in person or will they ship. I don't have a local dealer, the nearest one is over 150 miles away.
I'd appreciate any other suggestions for how to get a good deal.
Thanks for the help.
Bob
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post #190 of 1296 Old 04-10-2011, 03:39 AM
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Originally Posted by wild wild west View Post

Hey I'm retired and on a fixed income. How about sharing the names of the dealers that are offering 40% off and is it only in person or will they ship. I don't have a local dealer, the nearest one is over 150 miles away.
I'd appreciate any other suggestions for how to get a good deal.
Thanks for the help.
Bob

Nothing to buy yet. They're just recounting pass history on upgrades.
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post #191 of 1296 Old 04-13-2011, 12:12 PM
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Lexicon has gone through some unfortunate changes over the last 4-5 years and lost many of the dealers who gave more favorable discounts. My understanding is that this was due to some major reorganization within Lexicon and HSG. Perhaps a few remain but I was told the new marketing people were pulling dealers known to provide a more favorable exchange rate.
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post #192 of 1296 Old 04-16-2011, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Bigus View Post

If dsmith's theory was logical, then wouldn't a mono clock radio require even more listener involvement to fill in the greater missing information, thus provide for an even greater illusion of being there?

Sorry, that's just about the most absurd thing I've heard.


Funny you should say that, as not long ago I was recalling listening to mono radio (AM) growing up, which I suspect most of you never did. Before TV came into wide use the primary form of home entertainment was the old AM radio. Yep, believe it or not, back in the olden days most families sat around the old mono radio listening to dramatic programs such as The Green Hornet, Gunsmoke, Amos and Andy, and of course The Lone Ranger. There were many soap operas, some of which later became TV soaps, and music programs also, of course. It was TV prime time without the picture, and the listener was left to imagine in his/her own mind everything that was happening, to "fill in the blanks" as McLuhan might say. My own memory is how evocative those programs were, especially the spooky ones like Suspense Theater, or The Whistler, which of course you always listened to with the lights out. And my memory is that they were far scarier than most of the horror movies and TV shows we see today. But the true power of radio and it's affect on the imagination was probably best reflected in the widespread unease created by Orson Welle's broadcast of The War of the Worlds, which used simulated news bulletins without commercials. It was real enough to convince many people that the earth was actually being invaded by Martians. There were even unconfirmed reports of public panis in some cities.

Anyway, the basic concept of hot and cool mediums was McLuhan's, not mine; I just think he was right. I enjoy both 2 ch stereo and surround, depending on the recording. Music videos are always better in surround, of course, at least IMO.

For those interested, here is a list of radio programs from the 50's:

http://www.otrcat.com/advanced_searc...p?keywords=50s

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post #193 of 1296 Old 04-16-2011, 05:28 PM
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Funny you should say that...

Notice that in your whole description not once did you try to argue that the sound (i.e. music) was more "real" or "immersive" (i.e. like being there) in AM radio as compared to your stereo, and there is a simple reason why, because you clearly know that is not the case (unless we are talking about some seriously poorly designed stereo). The rest of the explanation no one is questioning (i.e. that we attempt to fill in the blanks as media gets colder, and that can increase our participation). Your conclusion that increased participation translates into a higher level of recreation of events is what clearly being questioned. It is basically nonsensical to argue that colder media makes things seem more real, otherwise improved audio reproduction would not increase the experience of audible events (make them seem increasingly more real as the technology improves) and the development towards better forms of reproduction would have died before it truly began.

PS as I stated, I don't think McLuhan makes the argument you make, nor was it his intent. Perhaps you are placing too much of yourself in your reading of his concept of cold and hot media

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post #194 of 1296 Old 04-24-2011, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

Notice that in your whole description not once did you try to argue that the sound (i.e. music) was more "real" or "immersive" (i.e. like being there) in AM radio as compared to your stereo, and there is a simple reason why, because you clearly know that is not the case (unless we are talking about some seriously poorly designed stereo). The rest of the explanation no one is questioning (i.e. that we attempt to fill in the blanks as media gets colder, and that can increase our participation). Your conclusion that increased participation translates into a higher level of recreation of events is what clearly being questioned. It is basically nonsensical to argue that colder media makes things seem more real, otherwise improved audio reproduction would not increase the experience of audible events (make them seem increasingly more real as the technology improves) and the development towards better forms of reproduction would have died before it truly began.

PS as I stated, I don't think McLuhan makes the argument you make, nor was it his intent. Perhaps you are placing too much of yourself in your reading of his concept of cold and hot media


"Reality" exists in the mind (consciousness) far more than is generally acknowledged, which is why a dream can be as real as so-called concious reality, and why delusional personalities are convinced they see and hear things that for the rest of us are not there (but who is to say who is right?). And it goes without saying that reality for some people includes gods and angels (or flying saucers) while for others those are just superstitions. If a spooky AM radio program that fires the imagination makes my pulse race more than watching a HD TV program of the same genre with 5.1 surround sound, then yes it has indeed created a more "real" experience. Of course the vast majority of posters here never had the pleasure of listening to those old radio programs and so understandably find it hard to believe how engaging and "real" they were to listeners then. Is it possible that today's more technicologically capable generation is less comfortable with (and less capable of) using their imagination? I don't know the answer, but an expert on child psychology (John Rosemond) seems to reach similar conclusions. Here are a few excerpts from his book "New Parent Power:"

"Watching televsion is a 'passivity,' not an activity. It does not properly engage human potential, whether it be motor, intellectual, creative, social, sensory, verbal or emotional." (my note: TV is McLuhan's example of a 'hot' medium).

"Joseph Chilton Pearce, author of Magical Child, writes that play is the most important of all childhood activities. It is through active, imaginative play, Pearce says, that children develop 'creative competence,' or mastery of their environment."

"In his landmark book The Disappearance of Childhood , Neil Postman makes the point that mastery of traditional literacy skills (reading ((my note: McLuhan's 'cool' medium)) and writing) is important to maintaining an important - nay vital - distinction between adulthood and childhood. Television and other (my note: 'hot') electrical media, Postman says, erase this distinction and render it meaningless."

I don't want to hijack this thread any further, but I just wanted to explain why I think it is important for the use of imagination to more fully experience a subjective artistic event, such as listening to music. And, to sum up, IMO, two ch listening requires more imagination to fully enjoy than surround, and the greater use of imagination offers as much to a "real" experience (when listening to music) as using less or none at all. But if today's younger listeners have not been allowed to more fully develop their imagination and sense of play, then that would explain why they find it so hard to understand why an older generation (me) can (at times) so enjoy a seemingly lesser format.

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post #195 of 1296 Old 04-27-2011, 07:36 AM
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Do any of you Lexicon insiders know if they are keeping production of their new processors in the USA? I hope so, but the MV-5 and RV-5 were both made in the Orient, and several respected high end manufacturers have gone east for cheaper production (PS Audio, for example), so it would not appear out of the question. I certainly hope they stay in the USA.

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post #196 of 1296 Old 04-27-2011, 01:56 PM
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I can tell you unofficially that it will be built in US in Salt Lake City.

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post #197 of 1296 Old 04-27-2011, 02:49 PM
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I can tell you unofficially that it will be built in US in Salt Lake City.

Great!

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post #198 of 1296 Old 04-27-2011, 03:56 PM
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I can tell you unofficially that it will be built in US in Salt Lake City.

Does that mean it won't work on Sundays?
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post #199 of 1296 Old 04-27-2011, 04:33 PM
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Does that mean it won't work on Sundays?

Took me a while to get that . That may be a good thing. We will know not to avoid the Monday morning builds! No bear cans left in the machine by accident.

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post #200 of 1296 Old 04-27-2011, 07:20 PM
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I can tell you unofficially that it will be built in US in Salt Lake City.

Yeah, I think the MC-12HD is the last piece they still build at Mack Technologies (not far from the old Lexicon in Bedford, Mass).

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post #201 of 1296 Old 04-28-2011, 07:13 AM
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Yeah, I think the MC-12HD is the last piece they still build at Mack Technologies (not far from the old Lexicon in Bedford, Mass).

So Lexicon does/did not have their own manufacturing facilities? That is not unusual in high end audio, I know, but I thought since they were part of Harman Specialty Group they had their own facilities. Anyway, switching to a new manufacturer could potentially mean there will be issues with early models as they break in a new production team, facility and process, though I certainly hope not. Are they also moving their HQ?

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post #202 of 1296 Old 04-28-2011, 07:48 AM
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So Lexicon does/did not have their own manufacturing facilities? ...Are they also moving their HQ?
I don't know how much of the old Lexicon's in-house "manufacturing" was assembly vs fabrication. At some point, they apparently found advantages to having the manufacturing done at Mack Technologies in nearby Westford (Lexicon is their only A/V client, the rest are aerospace, medical, military). The move to Mack happened before the big Harman consolidation a couple years back, when Lex HQ was moved from Bedford, MA to the main Harman campus at Northridge, CA. I think the only employee that made the cross-country move was Jim Hardiman, who went from head engineer at Lex to running Harman Consumer engineering.

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post #203 of 1296 Old 04-28-2011, 11:12 AM
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Contract manufacturing is a big part of how electronics are still made in the US, and that's what it appeared Lexicon did. The XBox was built this way, too, so it is scalable to large volumes.

Basically, you give your plans and a bunch of money to an independent manufacturer who then procures all the parts and puts them together for you. They can even put them in their packaging, and drop ship them to customers.

It is a pretty good way to go, with low startup costs in exchange for higher per-unit costs. It's good for small companies who can put out high quality hardware products without a huge investment in production facilities. It's pretty amazing these days what you can make with just a computer in your garage.

Having said that, just because something is "made in America" doesn't mean it's entirely produced here. For example, the Lexicon circuit boards appear to be made in China, and of course, many of the chips and electrical components are made elsewhere. The final assembly is done here, though.

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post #204 of 1296 Old 04-28-2011, 02:40 PM
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Yeah, pretty hard to make everything in one country. I wouldn't be surprised if "made in the USA" stickers are being printed somewhere else.
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post #205 of 1296 Old 05-01-2011, 03:00 PM
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To be considered "made in the USA" 70% of the parts must be sourced from the US.
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post #206 of 1296 Old 05-01-2011, 06:34 PM
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To be considered "made in the USA" 70% of the parts must be sourced from the US.

Not exactly. The State of California passed a law that the item must be built 100% in the USA with 100% built in the USA parts or it cannot be labeled as "made in the USA."

While something might be "made in the USA" under the definition you post, if they decide to sell in the State of California, they would either need new packaging just for California or they would have to take that claim off all their packaging since some product will end up in California.

If for example you sell to Costco, you will probably have to remove the "made in USA" off of all your packaging since something might get reshipped from their Arizona warehouse to LA as they balance their inventories and they would not want to run into legal issues.

I think there was a link earlier in this thread to the issues MagLite has had with this exact same law.
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post #207 of 1296 Old 05-02-2011, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Poindexter View Post

Not exactly. The State of California passed a law that the item must be built 100% in the USA with 100% built in the USA parts or it cannot be labeled as "made in the USA."

So it's not sufficient that the parts are sourced/purchased from US companies? That makes it pretty much impossible to produce "Made in USA" electronics. Unless, of course, it is okay to use a Maxim/Dallas chip produced in the US company's Taiwan factory?
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post #208 of 1296 Old 05-02-2011, 09:12 AM
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They can't even make a flashlight and market in California as "Made in the USA" because a single O-ring is being made in China and there is no company in the United States that makes the O-ring they need for the Mag-Lite.

Granted, it can be sold as "Made in the USA" in 49 other states, but not in California. Since they can't have 2 different types of packaging. So now they label it as "An American Company" which will have to suffice, right? Then again, you can say that about any company that is American but sources 100% of their product from overseas, including a US division of a foreign company.
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post #209 of 1296 Old 05-03-2011, 03:02 PM
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Interesting......
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post #210 of 1296 Old 05-05-2011, 07:39 AM
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Some products use the phrase "Assembled in the USA," which would seem to get around the California law. Maybe we should ask for full disclosure such as:

Designed in the USA, partly assembled in Taiwan using electronic parts made in China using Japanese owned facilities, with final assembly done in Mexico, and shipped to the USA by trucks made in Canada by a German owned company.

"The truth is out there!"
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