Older highend...now a bargain - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 84 Old 01-25-2011, 03:42 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Wrager's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Acworth, GA
Posts: 1,282
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Just looking for input. I want to upgrade to a new pre/pro or reciever.
I was looking at all the usual suspects that wouldn't be discussed in this area, but then I thought about one of the older highend units that are now available quite affordably. I don't care about room correction, 3D or HDMI for that matter. I do want 7.X and the ability to pass LPCM from the BD player. My top contenders are the Lexicon MC-12 and the Krell HTS. The Casablanca is only 5.1 IIRC. Any others?

What are your memories/thoughts of these units? Any reason not to do this versus say a 4311 or MRX500/700?
Wrager is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 84 Old 01-25-2011, 04:35 PM
Senior Member
 
howdydoody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Dallas / Ft Worth
Posts: 285
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Why wouldn't you care about room correction? Do you have an additional processor that will take care of this?
howdydoody is offline  
post #3 of 84 Old 01-25-2011, 05:13 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Wrager's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Acworth, GA
Posts: 1,282
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I just believe that a well designed, constructed and treated room is better.
I don't place a lot of value in what I've heard from Audyssey, YPAO and MCAAC above 120hz. I use an SMS-1 to tame a few peaks.
Wrager is offline  
post #4 of 84 Old 01-25-2011, 05:24 PM
Advanced Member
 
bigbrother52's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Hudson River Valley, N.Y.
Posts: 943
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrager View Post

The Casablanca is only 5.1 IIRC. Any others?

It depends on the Casablanca you find.

You could find one with 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 or even 12 channels!

TURN IT UP!
bigbrother52 is offline  
post #5 of 84 Old 01-25-2011, 09:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Glimmie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 7,817
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by howdydoody View Post

Why wouldn't you care about room correction? Do you have an additional processor that will take care of this?

If he doesn't care about automated room correction, then an MC8 is the same at a lower price. IIRC, an MC4 is the same as an MC8 without the zone2 option.

Glimmie's HT Page
Being redone - comming soon!

Glimmie is online now  
post #6 of 84 Old 01-26-2011, 07:50 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 18,814
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 548 Post(s)
Liked: 633
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrager View Post

I do want 7.X and the ability to pass LPCM from the BD player. My top contenders are the Lexicon MC-12 and the Krell HTS. The Casablanca is only 5.1 IIRC.

Were you planning on getting the HDMI versions of the pre-pros you mentioned? If not, how are you going to input 7.1 LPCM from your BD player into these older processors? You can send 7.1 via analogue to the Krell HTS (make sure it's the HTS 7.1, the original HTS was limited to 5.1). The Lex only has 5.1 analogue in and I don't think the Theta has a multi-channel analogue input.

As for unique output channels, the HTS 7.1 and CBIII are limited to 6 main channels: 3 fronts, 3 surrounds. The HTS supports 7 speakers by copying the mono surround-back channel to 2 outputs. The CBIII supports 8 speakers by copying the surrounds to a pair of side outputs. Neither is 7.x in the way most people think about it. The MC-12 can output 7 unique channels: three fronts, stereo sides, stereo rears. BTW, if you're not going to use room correction or multi-sub outputs, then consider one of the lower priced Lexicons (MC-8 or MC-4) instead of the MC-12, since they all have the same 7.1 processing.

Any reason you're not considering a newer pre-pro from Marantz or Integra?

Sanjay
sdurani is online now  
post #7 of 84 Old 01-26-2011, 08:04 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Wrager's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Acworth, GA
Posts: 1,282
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Great feedback Glimmie and Sanjay...exactly what I was looking for.
RE 7.1, yes I was planning on using the Oppo 93 analogue outs to the processor (sans HDMI). I guess my thinking is that I'd be able to step up in quality to these older processors (vs. Marantz or Integra...they all seem plagued with different probs) by giving up a few features.

I did not realise the distinctions between the various older Lexicons. Great input. Maybe the difference I think is there (sound quality wise) isn't real. Much appreciate your time.
Wrager is offline  
post #8 of 84 Old 01-26-2011, 08:19 AM
AVS Special Member
 
edorr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,455
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrager View Post

Just looking for input. I want to upgrade to a new pre/pro or reciever.
I was looking at all the usual suspects that wouldn't be discussed in this area, but then I thought about one of the older highend units that are now available quite affordably. I don't care about room correction, 3D or HDMI for that matter. I do want 7.X and the ability to pass LPCM from the BD player. My top contenders are the Lexicon MC-12 and the Krell HTS. The Casablanca is only 5.1 IIRC. Any others?

What are your memories/thoughts of these units? Any reason not to do this versus say a 4311 or MRX500/700?

Considering you are electing to forgo HDMI, there is a good chance that for BR High Rez sources, you get better sonics through the analog path than using (downsampled) digital over coax. The Krell 7.1 allegedly has an excellent multi channel analog preamp. Match it up with say a Pioneer BDP-09 and you will get stellar MCH on BR sources. You'll be out a in total less than 3,000. Only thing is you cannot expand 5.1 to 7.1 in this setup.

If you want to go all digital you could pick up a used CBIII with at least one Xtreme Card (about 4,000). Throw in an Oppo and you're looking at a lot more money and probably inferior SQ with BR over coax. I would take the (cheaper) analog route any day, but don't listen to me because I have an analog bias.
edorr is online now  
post #9 of 84 Old 01-26-2011, 08:20 AM
AVS Special Member
 
edorr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,455
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrager View Post

Great feedback Glimmie and Sanjay...exactly what I was looking for.
RE 7.1, yes I was planning on using the Oppo 93 analogue outs to the processor (sans HDMI). I guess my thinking is that I'd be able to step up in quality to these older processors (vs. Marantz or Integra...they all seem plagued with different probs) by giving up a few features.

I did not realise the distinctions between the various older Lexicons. Great input. Maybe the difference I think is there (sound quality wise) isn't real. Much appreciate your time.


Without a six shooter, you cannot do multi channel analog into a CBIII.
edorr is online now  
post #10 of 84 Old 01-26-2011, 08:35 AM
AVS Special Member
 
edorr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,455
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Any reason you're not considering a newer pre-pro from Marantz or Integra?

A good analog player into a MCH analog preamp will sound dramatically better than say an Oppo 93 into a "mid-fi" SSP over HDMI. (I tried this at home). With the CBIII HD and some other high-end pieces you may achieve the same or even better SQ over HDMI, but this will come at a substantially higher price. If you do not need roomEQ, and cannot spend CBIII HD, Classe or Halcro kind of money, analog will be the most cost effective approach to get very good SQ.

Disclaimer: The only possible exception to this is to use the propietary Denon / Sony / Pioneer protocols for digital high rez transmission between BR player and SSP. I have no experience with this. Using standard HDMI - good analog will beat a mid-fi SSP hands down.
edorr is online now  
post #11 of 84 Old 01-26-2011, 10:05 AM
Member
 
elysandi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 34
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I had also thought about doing what you are planning to do.
I wanted to get the new oppo 95 with the Nuforce NXE inhancement.
I was planning to use the analog output from the oppo into a
Classe SSP 600 7.1 input. I wrote to Classe support to ask them about
it. They told me if I did this the SSP 600 could only do volume and level
control, since all of the decoding was done in the dvd player.
I did not see spending $2500 to $3000 for just volume control was worth it.
Am I missing something ?
elysandi is offline  
post #12 of 84 Old 01-26-2011, 10:06 AM
isb
Member
 
isb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brighton, MI
Posts: 100
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
A Meridian 568.2MM and G68 would, I believe, be worth adding to your list. If you decide to down the road, you can add an HD621 as an HDMI switch with 24/96 5.1 via MHR into either. Not sure about the 568, but the G68 can expand to 7.1. They will both accept 5.1 analog in, but do convert all inputs to digital for processing. The G68 has Meridian's room correction (MRC). It's more subtle than some alternatives on the market, filtering low frequencies based on measurement/control of reverberation time.
isb is offline  
post #13 of 84 Old 01-26-2011, 10:31 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Kelvin1965S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Berkshire, UK
Posts: 3,230
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 31
While maybe not 'high end' in the manner usually discussed on this part of the forum, I'm planing on adding an Oppo 93 to my Arcam AV9 processor (and Arcam powers amps) combo. I've tried decoding HD soundtracks in a lo/mid range Denon receiver (source was a lowly Sony BD player). I found that this wasn't as good as my AV9 setup using 'core' DTS via coax in the same room and with the same speakers. The AV9 and Arcam poweramps were purchased used and the quality still shows. I hope that the upgrade to the '93 using analogues will be a further improvement, but the limitation with this route is not being able to 'matrix' rear surrounds for 5.1 discs.

I like to pop in here from time to time, just to see what I might be able to buy in a year or two.

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
Kelvin1965S is offline  
post #14 of 84 Old 01-26-2011, 10:34 AM
Advanced Member
 
jmichaelf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 988
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
I've had a multi-year longing for the AR MP-1. It's such a cool piece. Only 5.1, but it's an entirely purpose built pre.
jmichaelf is offline  
post #15 of 84 Old 01-26-2011, 12:13 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 18,814
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 548 Post(s)
Liked: 633
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrager View Post

I did not realise the distinctions between the various older Lexicons. Great input. Maybe the difference I think is there (sound quality wise) isn't real.

The difference in sound quality between the MC-12 and lower priced Lexicons is quantifiable (i.e., improvements in dynamic range, S/N ratio, etc.) You don't have to accept on faith some intangible about sonics when there are measured specs. So while the difference in sound quality is real, the more important question is how much difference will you hear in your listening environment?
Quote:


RE 7.1, yes I was planning on using the Oppo 93 analogue outs to the processor (sans HDMI).

Of the pre-pros you mentioned in your first post, the only one that can accept 7.1 analogue is the HTS (later version). But for 5.1 sources, it cannot process to 7.1, just 6.1 (EX/ES decoding). The MC-12 is limited to 5.1 analogue inputs, but can process those signals to 7.1 channels. The CBIII doesn't have multi-channel analogue inputs and its surround processing (including PLIIx) is limited to 6.1 channels.

So you have to take into account your listening habits. How often do you think you'll be listening to discrete 7.1 material versus needing to scale 5.1 material to a 7.1-speaker layout?

Sanjay
sdurani is online now  
post #16 of 84 Old 01-26-2011, 01:14 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Wrager's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Acworth, GA
Posts: 1,282
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
That really helps Sanjay. Very little would be discrete 7.1, to your point.
So I really just need 5.1 in and 7.1 out if I follow.

Any thoughts on an MC-1 w/ 8 channel upgrade?
Wrager is offline  
post #17 of 84 Old 01-26-2011, 02:16 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Glimmie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 7,817
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

The difference in sound quality between the MC-12 and lower priced Lexicons is quantifiable (i.e., improvements in dynamic range, S/N ratio, etc.)

Do you mean the older Lexicons rather than the "lower priced"?

I though in terms of signal processing the MC12, MC8, and MC4 were identical. The differences were features like auto setup and additional output zones.

I also thought the same idea was true for the DC1, Dc2, and MC1?

Glimmie's HT Page
Being redone - comming soon!

Glimmie is online now  
post #18 of 84 Old 01-26-2011, 02:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sfogg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Ma, USA
Posts: 5,614
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
"Do you mean the older Lexicons rather than the "lower priced"?

I though in terms of signal processing the MC12, MC8, and MC4 were identical. The differences were features like auto setup and additional output zones."

The DACs are different in the MC-12 vs the MC-8 and MC-4. The MC-12 runs AD1853s in dual differential mode, the MC-8 uses AKMs.

MC-12 has additional bass management options since it has 3 sub outputs. It also has the ability to process a 5.1 analog input signal, the MC-8 and MC-4 can't do that. I can't recall if the MC-8 or MC-4 got the so called 'Discrete' 5.1 Logic 7 version that also performs steering on the L/R speakers. The MC-4 doesn't have LIVE.

"I also thought the same idea was true for the DC1, Dc2, and MC1?"

DC-1 uses different DACs then the DC-2 or MC-1 but if they are all running the latest software their processing is identical.

Shawn
sfogg is offline  
post #19 of 84 Old 01-26-2011, 03:09 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Wrager's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Acworth, GA
Posts: 1,282
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Even more, better help, thanks Shawn. You performed the upgrade to the MC-1 I referred to above.
Wrager is offline  
post #20 of 84 Old 01-26-2011, 03:09 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 18,814
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 548 Post(s)
Liked: 633
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

I though in terms of signal processing the MC12, MC8, and MC4 were identical.

Depends what you mean by "signal processing". The surround processing is identical. Bass management is different (the MC-12 allows for 3 subwoofer outputs: stereo bass plus separate LFE). And different DACs, configured differently. The MC-12 uses 2 DACs per channel in dual-differential mode, which helps reduce noise and lessen the effects of non-linearities during D/A conversion (little chance that both DACs have the same linearity errors). As mentioned in the other Lex thread, these are the same D/A converters in the same configuration used on the Proceed AVP2 and Mark Levinson No.40.

Sanjay
sdurani is online now  
post #21 of 84 Old 01-26-2011, 03:35 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 18,814
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 548 Post(s)
Liked: 633
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrager View Post

Very little would be discrete 7.1, to your point. So I really just need 5.1 in and 7.1 out if I follow.

The MC-12 gives you the option to digitize the 5.1 analogue inputs (at 96/24 resolution), which allows you to apply bass management, time alignment, surround processing, room correction, A/V sync delay, etc. By comparison, the 5.1 analogue inputs on the MC-8 and MC-4 are straight pass-through.

With the few discrete 7.1 soundtracks you encounter, your player will fold the 4 surround channels down to 2 for transmission over the analogue cables. The Lex will then extract the stereo surround-back information and send it to the 2 speakers behind you.

I still think you should get something newer. Why deal with the above compromises when you can run one HDMI cable and never have to worry about number of channels nor additional A/D D/A steps?
Quote:


Marantz or Integra...they all seem plagued with different probs

The Integra 80.2 has the relay clicking problem with every change of format. But this only happens with bitstreamed soundtracks. If you set your player to output LPCM, there will be no format changes, hence no clicking. The Marantz seems stable from what I've read in the thread. And the 4311 you mentioned earlier is another good option, since it can turn off its amplifier circuitry when switched to pre-pro mode. It's up to you, but I wouldn't rule them out.

Sanjay
sdurani is online now  
post #22 of 84 Old 01-26-2011, 05:06 PM
Advanced Member
 
bigbrother52's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Hudson River Valley, N.Y.
Posts: 943
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Of the pre-pros you mentioned in your first post, the only one that can accept 7.1 analogue is the HTS (later version). But for 5.1 sources, it cannot process to 7.1, just 6.1 (EX/ES decoding). The MC-12 is limited to 5.1 analogue inputs, but can process those signals to 7.1 channels.

The CBIII doesn't have multi-channel analogue inputs and its surround processing (including PLIIx) is limited to 6.1 channels.

I'm not trying to ram a Casablanca down anyone's throat, and I'm good with whatever anyone decides on, new or old but....

The Casablanca does have the Six-Shooter available, which is not really very expensive to add these days if you need analogue inputs.

And the Casablanca is certainly not limited to 6.1 channels of surround sound processong, in fact you can expand to 8.4 if you so choose.

I know you're having a bit of a problem understanding how Theta labels their channels, but it's really only a label and not as limited as you might think.


Just thought I'd keep this honest is all.
I think a used Lex is a fine purchase myself.

TURN IT UP!
bigbrother52 is offline  
post #23 of 84 Old 01-26-2011, 06:23 PM
Senior Member
 
TedO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 296
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I second the thought of a Meridian unit. I have a 568.2mm being fed from an Octava modified with one of Shawn's boards. I get HD audio via this setup which blows away an analog 5.1 signal. The only thing I an missing is room correction and that will come when I upgrade to a G68.
TedO is offline  
post #24 of 84 Old 01-26-2011, 06:40 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 18,814
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 548 Post(s)
Liked: 633
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbrother52 View Post

The Casablanca does have the Six-Shooter available, which is not really very expensive to add these days if you need analogue inputs.

Then you'd not only have to buy a pre-pro but also buy an outboard device to get around that very pre-pro.
Quote:


And the Casablanca is certainly not limited to 6.1 channels of surround sound processong, in fact you can expand to 8.4 if you so choose.

Of the 8 main channels, 2 are simply copies. The manual makes this clear, repeatedly. That leaves 6 unique channels: 3 fronts, 3 surrounds. Sending the same content (Theta uses the term "exact replica") to more than one speaker is not surround processing.

Remember stereo receivers that let you connect two pairs of speakers (A & B)? That didn't mean the receiver had quadraphonic processing. Same 2 channels, sent to 4 speakers.

BTW, the .4 comes from bass management, not surround processing.
Quote:


I know you're having a bit of a problem understanding how Theta labels their channels, but it's really only a label and not as limited as you might think.

Then help me understand. Is the manual consistently incorrect when it repeatedly states that the Side outputs are an exact replica of the Surround outputs?

Sanjay
sdurani is online now  
post #25 of 84 Old 01-26-2011, 07:04 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
thebland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Detroit, Michigan USA
Posts: 23,627
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 81 Post(s)
Liked: 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Then you'd not only have to buy a pre-pro but also buy an outboard device to get around that very pre-pro. Of the 8 main channels, 2 are simply copies. The manual makes this clear, repeatedly. That leaves 6 unique channels: 3 fronts, 3 surrounds. Sending the same content (Theta uses the term "exact replica") to more than one speaker is not surround processing.

Remember stereo receivers that let you connect two pairs of speakers (A & B)? That didn't mean the receiver had quadraphonic processing. Same 2 channels, sent to 4 speakers.

BTW, the .4 comes from bass management, not surround processing. Then help me understand. Is the manual consistently incorrect when it repeatedly states that the Side outputs are an exact replica of the Surround outputs?

Are you saying there is no discrete 7.1 or that 5.1 is not post processed correctly by Dolby PL IIx, etc to expand to 7.1?

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
thebland is online now  
post #26 of 84 Old 01-26-2011, 07:18 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 18,814
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 548 Post(s)
Liked: 633
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post
Are you saying there is no discrete 7.1 or that 5.1 is not post processed correctly by Dolby PL IIx, etc to expand to 7.1?
PLIIx is 6.1 or 7.1 outputs, so the former isn't incorrect.

I'm going by Theta's manual for the CBIII, which is post PLIIx (since it mentions it in the manual). In another thread, Bulldogger said the manual was outdated. I don't know if that means outdated as of the HDMI upgrade or outdated as of the PLIIx upgrade. In any case, there is nothing in the manual to indicate that the Side outputs receive anything but copies of the Surround outputs. If this info has been corrected/updated somewhere, I'd love to be proven wrong.

I know Roger had asked if someone could use a test disc to verify channel routing, but no luck so far.

Sanjay
sdurani is online now  
post #27 of 84 Old 01-26-2011, 07:33 PM
Advanced Member
 
bigbrother52's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Hudson River Valley, N.Y.
Posts: 943
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Then you'd not only have to buy a pre-pro but also buy an outboard device to get around that very pre-pro. Of the 8 main channels, 2 are simply copies. The manual makes this clear, repeatedly. That leaves 6 unique channels: 3 fronts, 3 surrounds. Sending the same content (Theta uses the term "exact replica") to more than one speaker is not surround processing.

Remember stereo receivers that let you connect two pairs of speakers (A & B)? That didn't mean the receiver had quadraphonic processing. Same 2 channels, sent to 4 speakers.

BTW, the .4 comes from bass management, not surround processing. Then help me understand. Is the manual consistently incorrect when it repeatedly states that the Side outputs are an exact replica of the Surround outputs?
I realize it's an outboard device, I didn't say anyone should run out and buy it.
I mearly presented it as an alternative when you said it could not do it.
It was designed to do exactly what it does. I didn't think you'd have some sort of problem with that but apparently you do!

It's going to be very difficult to understand if you insist it's not a Surround Sound Processor but something more along the lines of a stereo with more then one speaker output.

How many pages of this manual have you read?

There are six different modes to expand the signal from the so called stereo reciever and each one works a bit differently.

I'm sure you can find a mode that does make an exact replica of the rear stereo but somewhere you also must have run across words like derived, I mean someplace, somewhere, at least in one of the modes.
I know it's a big book with not too many pictures but no manual I've seen is that outdated.

I know exactly what I meant by .4 but I thought you would too and it didn't require even a simple explaination.
I really do actually believe Theta might have the only stereo in the world that could find all four "bass" tracks that are in every recording.

I apoligize for having posted the simple addition of a Six-shooter to your obviously biased list of SSP's.
I have no similar bias toward the Lex and thought I was clear that I think it's a great purchase or at least another choice when looking for a plain old stereo.

TURN IT UP!
bigbrother52 is offline  
post #28 of 84 Old 01-26-2011, 08:06 PM
AVS Special Member
 
AndreYew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,670
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
6-shooter is not a good example of analog input because it is essentially an outboard 6-channel preamp that is controlled by the Casablanca, hence all the jokes about the CS being a $10K remote control.

Analog inputs on some other SSPs can be digitized and thereby give you bass management, channel delays, room EQ, and surround processing, and some people will find that more valuable. Those SSPs can also act just as an analog preamp doing just volume control and level balance (not sure if the 6-shooter can do that) should you want to go that route.

For the same reason, I don't consider the MC-8 and MC-4 as particularly useful for someone who needs multichannel analog inputs.

When Sanjay first described how seemingly limited the Casablanca's multichannel outputs were, I couldn't believe it either, but there it was in the manual:

http://www.thetadigital.com/download...s%20manual.pdf

page 53:
Quote:
Note:
Information for the side channels is the same as the left/right surrounds. Therefore the configuration setting for the surrounds also applies to the sides. Level and delay settings can be applied separately for the sides via the Levels and Delays submenus, respectively.
page 58:
Quote:
Side Speaker Configuration
The side speaker information is an exact replica of the left/right surround channels. In the speaker configuration menu, they can be turned on and off. Their levels and delays can be individually adjusted in the levels and delays submenus.
This is easy to clear up: play a 7.1 BD into a CBIIIHD through an HDMI connection and with a player that supports 7.1 LPCM outputs (eg. Oppo or PS3), and confirm that each of the 7 full-range channels comes out of a single unique speaker.
AndreYew is offline  
post #29 of 84 Old 01-26-2011, 08:08 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 18,814
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 548 Post(s)
Liked: 633
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbrother52 View Post
I mearly presented it as an alternative when you said it could not do it.
It can't. The Six Shooter doesn't send the signal into the CBIII, it completely bypasses the CBIII. I'm just stating how the signal is routed. Please don't take it personally.
Quote:
It's going to be very difficult to understand if you insist it's not a Surround Sound Processor but something more along the lines of a stereo with more then one speaker output.
Where did I insist that it's not a surround processor? I repeated what the manual said about the Sides being copies of the Surrounds, using stereo receivers with dual outputs as an analogy.
Quote:
I'm sure you can find a mode that does make an exact replica of the rear stereo but somewhere you also must have run across words like derived, I mean someplace, somewhere, at least in one of the modes.
I've tried to find something (anything) that indicates the Sides aren't an exact replica of the Surrounds. If you can find it, please point it out. As I said in my reply to thebland, I'd love to be proven wrong.
Quote:
I really do actually believe Theta might have the only stereo in the world that could find all four "bass" tracks that are in every recording.
Recordings have only one LFE track, not four. The CBIII can be configured for 5 subwoofers, each getting a different signal, when set-up in a 5-speaker system. But let's not confuse bass management with bass tracks in recordings.
Quote:
I apoligize for having posted the simple addition of a Six-shooter to your obviously biased list of SSP's.
Wasn't my list; the OP listed Krell, Theta and Lex in his first post.
Quote:
I have no similar bias toward the Lex and thought I was clear that I think it's a great purchase or at least another choice when looking for a plain old stereo.
Ironically, I've been trying to encourage the OP to get something newer instead of the Lex.

Sanjay
sdurani is online now  
post #30 of 84 Old 01-26-2011, 09:46 PM
Advanced Member
 
bigbrother52's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Hudson River Valley, N.Y.
Posts: 943
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreYew View Post
6-shooter is not a good example of analog input because it is essentially an outboard 6-channel preamp that is controlled by the Casablanca, hence all the jokes about the CS being a $10K remote control.
.
But the Six-Shooter is an analog pre-amp that can ONLY be controlled by the Casablanca and is therefore an EXTENSION of the Casablanca.
It is it's Analog inputs although optional. You may not want an outboard pre-amp but the Six-Shooter certainly does not sound like a joke.
Personally I DO NOT own one, from reading this one might get the impression that I do but I was just pointing out a falsehood that was posted as fact by "sdurani".

My original intention here was to "very nicely" point out that there was a way to input an analog signal with a Casablanca.
I didn't even say anything like " HEY YOUR WRONG!" Just a simple comment that the thing exists! Why are we now to the point of calling the whole concept really, a joke?

So, consider it what you will, it is what it is, you use it, you like it or you don't!
Just don't disregard it when the fact is, it exists.

My other comment about "sdurani" having a problem understanding the way Theta Digital "lablels" their surround process was because he has posted these "non-truths" about the CB-III not processing 7.1 before, and he has admitted to not understanding their "labels" before.
It is nothing more then the way they describe their process that he does not quite understand. Just because he cannot fully grasp the entire manual does not mean that they do not have the same process as any other "stereo" but a much more sophisticated stereo then he even imagined.

Let's TRY to finally end some of these misconceptions. If I cannot clear them up with what I have just said and what I point out in the comming sentences, with a little help from the Casablanca III Manual itself, then it is I who have failed to properly point out or instruct on what Theta Digital does, but that still won't mean he's correct because he might post some clever words to make it look like their 7.1 expansion process is but a toy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreYew View Post
When Sanjay first described how seemingly limited the Casablanca's multichannel outputs were, I couldn't believe it either, but there it was in the manual:

http://www.thetadigital.com/downloads/Theta%20Digital%20Casablanca%20III%20owner's%20manual.pdf

page 53:


page 58:
.
You guys read through the manual selectively, you see only what isolated parts of it that you want and interpret isolated parts of it the way you want.

Now somebody answer my question:
How do I add these processes to the "additional speakers" and get the same thing out of the "additional speakers" as I got from the surround speakers?

Yes, Theta Digital just describes what is commonly called these days, by convention, as "side surrounds" as "additional speakers", this may be confusing to some people but this part of "the manual" was published before Dolby and THX on their websites called them something in particular and decided exactly where and WHAT the "additional speakers" are and where they were to be placed.
As far as Theta was concerned, back in the day, this placement was optional, and you won't see defined "back surrounds" or "rear surrounds" in their manual.
But "additional speakers" and "surround speakers" are quite simply what everyone is now calling "side and back surrounds".

Of course, this notion of exact replica of the 5.1 portion of the signal comming from the "additional speakers" is really a ludricous statement, it's absolutely ABSURD!!!
One would think that this was an ill concieved $500 reciever from reading the comments that have been made concerning this highly regarded SSP.
But you can find the words "exact replica" in the manual, if you selectively look at a portion of a single page, of the well over 100 page manual, that was written at a time before time, in the surround sound processor world.

The manual does include further enlightenment on the "additional speaker" conundrum, which again, if you do not fully grasp or understand, will mean nothing to you and you can again point out the isolated passage that says "exact replica"!

Please, "try" to understand that this machine was NEVER intended for the end-user to set-up.
They never intended this manual to be the sole source of information in the set-up procedure. It was was supposed to done by a highly skilled and "trained" dealer!
Someone equipt with much more information then is available right here.

We AVS members sitting here and considering this manual the holy grail of CB-III procedure set-up was never meant to be.
Still the following is includeded in yet another isolated passage, and there are yet more of such isolated passages for yet other surround modes.

"If the incoming signal is Dolby Digital 5.1, and the user desires to create sides or a center surround channel, use the


+SPKR
(or Additional Speakers) parameter to indicate which MODE will be used to create them. There are a limited

amount of modes that can do this. They are displayed in Table 6.

VFD DEFINITION

OFF No additional speaker signals will be created.

THETA Theta Proprietary Processing

DTSES DTS ES

NEO6M DTS NEO:6 Music

NEO6C DTS NEO:6 Cinema

PL2MU Dolby Pro Logic IIx Music

PL2MV Dolby Pro Logic IIx Movie

Table 6 – Additional Speaker Modes for Dolby Digital Source.


Page 67 Theta Digital Casablanca III Manual"



It's a little more involved and complicated then JUST being an exact replica of the rear channels before this additional and intricate processing.
According to the way "sdurani" interprets the manual, adding the additional speakers with a Casablanca, (which by the way has survived for 14 years already based on the way it performs), is nothing more then a switch in the Casablanca that turns on two more speakers!

Think about it for just a moment.................Does it still make sense to you


Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreYew View Post
This is easy to clear up: play a 7.1 BD into a CBIIIHD through an HDMI connection and with a player that supports 7.1 LPCM outputs (eg. Oppo or PS3), and confirm that each of the 7 full-range channels comes out of a single unique speaker.
.
More ADSURDITY!!! 7.1 discrete is 7.1 discrete, there is nothing to prove!!

Just because you guys WISH that it wasn't there, does not make it so.

TURN IT UP!
bigbrother52 is offline  
Reply Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+)

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off