I have seen the future of 3d and 4k at the first annual DCI symposium . - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 28 Old 01-25-2011, 06:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I have seen the future of 3d and 4k at the first annual DCI symposium .

We basically stayed inside the largest IMAX theater in the USA shooting out 3d systems and watching 4k content for 48 hours- the RED content is insanely sharp
There is a definite performance improvement by going to dual projector setups.
They had 2 barco dp2k 32 b outfitted with 6,500 lamps which yields 35,000 lumens each for a whopping 70k output. There is zero stair stepping on dlp 4k the upscaled 2k is generally phenomenal, occasional very good, never soso- fantastic!


This performance improvement will create a new systems plateau , we will differentiate these double stackers by naming them after moons of Jupiter.

Stay tuned.

We made a correction about the lamp above, the Guinness Book of World Record 7kw lamp was NOT used at Moody Gardens. There was a potential additional 14,000 lumens of power available in a double stack of these projectors.
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post #2 of 28 Old 01-25-2011, 07:46 PM
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that sounds amazing. heres to hoping 4k to be materialized to consumer level pricing in the not too distant future!

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post #3 of 28 Old 01-26-2011, 12:29 AM - Thread Starter
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post #4 of 28 Old 01-26-2011, 03:22 AM
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Two projectors is absolutely the right way to go 3D- you're no longer tied to any one technology exclusively, even more brightness capability, and I would imagine that scaling would be an easier task.

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post #5 of 28 Old 01-26-2011, 05:56 AM
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I hate the low light output of 3D now so I agree. One just can't pull out detail without enough light so it becomes a trade between that and getting the effects.

Thanks for the posts Peter.

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post #6 of 28 Old 01-26-2011, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Theres Rob: Barco convergence/stacking alignment master jedi.
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post #7 of 28 Old 01-26-2011, 12:42 PM - Thread Starter
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80 foot wide directv looked great upscaled to 4K.



Nwave films looked great too now they are funded by CANAL PLUS to produce more 3-D.






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post #8 of 28 Old 01-26-2011, 12:51 PM - Thread Starter
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At 6 am in the fog with the lights off the visitor center looked a exactly like the jurasic park VC.

I have a funny story to tell because the hotel tv was showing events starting at 6:am, and I could not even find the buildings in the dark at that time... more later.




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post #9 of 28 Old 01-27-2011, 07:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

I hate the low light output of 3D now so I agree. One just can't pull out detail without enough light so it becomes a trade between that and getting the effects.

Thanks for the posts Peter.

Art

Hi Art , wait until you see how good hd looks at DLP 4k, razor sharp.
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post #10 of 28 Old 01-27-2011, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
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List of attendees...


Xpand Cinema
Air Force Museum-Wright Patterson AFB
Tennessee Aquarium
IMAX
Sonics ESD
The Henry Ford
The Henry Ford
Laser Light Engines
Kooptech
National Park Service
Whitaker Center
Branson IMAX
Branson IMAX
Bowen Technovation
3D Entertainment Distribution
Branson IMAX
Natural History Foundation-New Mexico
Houston Museum Of Natural Science
Air Force Museum Foundation
CINEXTRACT
Moody Gardens
K2 Communications
Zeller Digital Innovations
Lakeview Museum
Moody Gardens
Lakeview Museum
SimEx-Iwerks
Saint Louis Science Center
3D Under Sea
USS Lexington Museum
Long Shadow Media
Dallas Museum Of Art
Audubon Aquarium of the Americas
SimEx-Iwerks
Barco
SimEx-Iwerks
Sky Scan
Sea World
RealD
Mhpress
New England Aquarium

Franklin Designs
Blaze Digital Cinema
Master Image 3D
Giant Screen Cinema
USHIO AMERICA
Saint Louis Science Center
RPG Productions
Kinoca Minolta Planetarium

Howard Hall Productions
Howard Hall Productions
Moody Gardens
MacGillivray-Freeman Films
Hastings Museum
Science Spectrum
Barco
L F Examiner
MediaMation Inc.
MediaMation Inc.
Cinema Group
USHIO AMERICA

NEC
National Geographic Entertainment
Audubon Aquarium of the Americas
Moving Image Technology
Kooptech-ASL
Moody Gardens
Moody Gardens
The Story Of Texas
Science Center AHHAA 4D,Estonia
Washington Pavilion
The Kansas Cosmosphere & Space Center
MacGillivray-Freeman Films

SimEx-Iwerks
Zeller Digital Innovations
Moody Foundation
Museum Of Discovery And Science
D3D Cinema
Saint Louis Science Center
USS Lexington Museum
Technicolor
Bowen Technovation
Fotokem
SimEx-Iwerks Consultant
Fort Worth Museum Of Science & History


Master Image 3D
Destination Cinema
Trustee - Museum Of Nature And Science
Be-Media
Lakeview Museum
Branson IMAX
Branson IMAX
Lakeview Museum
Houston Museum Of Natural Science
RPG Productions
Kooptech
Liquid Pictures 3D
Hastings Museum
Dolby
Globel Immersion
Lakeview Museum
Giant Screen Cinema
Virgin Islands
ENE Theater Services
Moody Foundation
SimEx-Iwerks
Tennessee Aquarium
Orlando Science Center
Lakeview Museum
D3D Cinema
Science North
Bowen Technovation
Maritime Aquarium
nWave
Nature And Science
Museum Of Discovery And Science
Tennessee Aquarium
Threshold Animation Studios
Russell C Davis Planetarium
AV-Imagineering
Moody Gardens
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post #11 of 28 Old 01-28-2011, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Woke up at 6:00am and turned on the hotel convention channel, it said meetings at 6:00am (it was still dark and foggy outside you could not see past 30 meters.


The tv also showed a breakfast at 8...


Could not see the pyramids or the Visitor center it was pitch black, cold, foggy and wet...




As I approached the visitor center in the penumbra it felt like being in Jurasic park, scary, expected a couple of raptors to pop out of the fog at any minute.

Under this drab and nebulous panorama resemblance to the other visitor center was uncanny.



I met the Theater director at 6:15 who explained I was early, then I showed him the 6:00am announcement on my Ipad, it turned out to be a computer glitch, the 8 breakfast was the first scheduled event.

Oh well Joke On Me...


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post #12 of 28 Old 01-28-2011, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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You can see from the schedule why this was for me a seminal event.

One thing is for sure HAS BEEN CONFIRMED I love DCI and hate film, how much do I hate it? As much as I hate .....Don't let me start with certain intellectually challenged projector manufacturers . Hacks!


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post #13 of 28 Old 01-28-2011, 07:01 PM
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I wish for a report from a shoot out between a Sony 4K and a DLP 4K one day!
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post #14 of 28 Old 01-28-2011, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

I wish for a report from a shoot out between a Sony 4K and a DLP 4K one day!

I don't think that's necessary as the Sony 4K shoot out was done many times agains 2K DLP and everytime the 2K DLP won with better brightness, colour, 3D, etc
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post #15 of 28 Old 01-28-2011, 09:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

I wish for a report from a shoot out between a Sony 4K and a DLP 4K one day!


Are you kidding? the sony is like an old worn out crt by comparison SOFT ALL OVER. It's all about the ansi contrast ratio, the sharpness (MTF), the definition of the pixels and the incredible colorimetry.

If DLP beat 15/70 hands down at this event, 15/70 was always superior to SONY Cinealta. I would not going announcing having seen the future with a trivial improvement, this is a huge improvement.

Also the Red camera footage was incredible. with relatively small file sizes, I would support Red Ray 4k for the home based on what was shown at Moody Gardens.
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post #16 of 28 Old 01-28-2011, 09:35 PM
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Incomplete participants list, no Cineramax;-). No Christie person checking out the competition, NEC did send some-one over I see.
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post #17 of 28 Old 01-28-2011, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Are you kidding? the sony is like an old worn out crt by comparison SOFT ALL OVER. It's all about the ansi contrast ratio, the sharpness (MTF), the definition of the pixels and the incredible colorimetry.

If DLP beat 15/70 hands down at this event, 15/70 was always superior to SONY Cinealta. I would not going announcing having seen the future with a trivial improvement, this is a huge improvement.

Also the Red camera footage was incredible. with relatively small file sizes, I would support Red Ray 4k for the home based on what was shown at Moody Gardens.

What, best 3D showing only six months or so ago, things are finally getting up to speed, I guess.
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post #18 of 28 Old 01-28-2011, 09:55 PM - Thread Starter
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I signed up at breakfast. Notice how many museums are looking to ditch the Imax 15/70, they showed it takes 328,000 a year to maintain film whereas the maintenance cost including equipment lease payments and hard drive film delivery was like 58,000 for stacked DCI.

Imax was there they must have been livid, still these venues see value in the Imax name but 15/70 gives no alternative content flexibility and 3-D is prohibitive and a mission to accomplish a single showing.

RealD showed on their brighter solid state polarizer on a single Nec 2k Projector projecting on an incomplete 76 (looked more like 72) segment of the 80 foot screen, very nice picture but I have noticed a consistent color signature on these projectors, one that also manifested itself during ShowEast on their 4k. I have pics that show it.

The Nec was not shown after the RealD segment.

The Nec colorimetry is skewed with a slightly mustard-orange face tone tint, I don't know what motivates NEC to deliver this colorimetry (maybe is more photorealistic with the facial pigmentations of Asian actors-not being prejudicial- just trying to understand the benefit of the obvious skew) , if you are used to the Barco level of color calibration the skew is DRAMATIC, I also notice a slightly greenish or blueish hueing going on with the Christie image but the color gamut delta with the Barco is not as pronounced as with NEC. I wonder if TI has looked into this, it could make for some very red looking transfers -using these NEC for post work.

The way TI designed these engines when properly color shot they should all look the same color hue, they do not very clearly to the naked eye. I have always appreciated Barco because paper white as shown on the screen looks like a piece of paper. They have been very careful to maintain this nuance cross projection platforms.
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post #19 of 28 Old 01-28-2011, 10:02 PM - Thread Starter
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This technology could transfer to the home, but people ar going to have to ditch their anamorphic setups if they are going to take advantage of 4k, that requires a primary screen of 1.89 in DCI or 1.77 for HD. That has a huge impact on architectural spaces, I would guess that two thirds of the architectural spaces designed for HT are wider than taller. Must Correct in the 21st century, taller screens and Stadium seating with shorter distances is whats required.
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post #20 of 28 Old 01-29-2011, 02:06 AM
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peter

do you know if the 4k barco dlp with a doremi media block inside can take
4k in 2d at 24 or 30 hz via the 1.4 hdmi?
or may even at higher frame rates?
think that is the only simple way to feed 4k stills in my set up.
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post #21 of 28 Old 01-29-2011, 05:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Stills: the dvi input may do triple 60. The imb may not be needed in the 4k.

I have to research further but they were saying you can hook up a gaming pc that way.

Will ask and report via pm.
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post #22 of 28 Old 01-29-2011, 06:08 AM
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Sounds wonderful Peter, but we are sure going to need software better than the BD transfers we are getting to make this matter much in the home.

I watched A Beautiful Mind the other night and we have a long way to go unless you just want to watch Avatar over and over.

Anyway, thanks for the report !

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post #23 of 28 Old 01-29-2011, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Sounds wonderful Peter, but we are sure going to need software better than the BD transfers we are getting to make this matter much in the home.

I watched A Beautiful Mind the other night and we have a long way to go unless you just want to watch Avatar over and over.

Anyway, thanks for the report !

Art

I hear you but the problem is more exacerbated in the consumer projectors with the xenon lamps and the TI processing DirectV looked great on an 80 foot wide, in Prometheus a Blu-ray movie is never seen twice, the owner is generally very happy unless the flick like the last train has very bad black levels, then the owner will text me on a saturday night at 11:00pm with 4,200 on/off certain titles with elevated black levels will be an issue.

But I generally disagree with some of the Elite forum members here that the state of Blu-rays is unacceptable, on them Barcos they are very enjoyable 85% of the time. Surpisingly good.

The black level problem goes away with series 2-B next year.
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post #24 of 28 Old 01-29-2011, 06:21 PM
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Peter, IMAX did go digital (for a secondtime after buying and selling DPI, retaining the DCinema license/option it let go to waste), just swap the dual 2K Christies, for 4K's and they can say, hey we offer this cheaper package as well, so stay with us, and our content.
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post #25 of 28 Old 01-29-2011, 06:28 PM - Thread Starter
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it's no longer their content, the producers are offering it for sale direct.

I am sure they have that option which with the incentive of brand loyalty may be a good one, too bad because the Barco is the better projector NO DOUBT.

Say you are a well heeled DCI equipped cineast, the producers of these large format films (the very same ones shown on Imax but without the Imax name) will sell you a 2k 3D print for close to 10 grand. The great news is that they are scanning now to prepare 4k 3d files, that would be unreal. There will be 4k 3d movies ready for when doremi and Barco add the functionality , without demand or content however.....
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post #26 of 28 Old 01-31-2011, 01:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Also the Red camera footage was incredible. with relatively small file sizes, I would support Red Ray 4k for the home based on what was shown at Moody Gardens.

What exactly was shown? Pirates 4? Anything released only in 2K so far? Test footage shot for this event?
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post #27 of 28 Old 01-31-2011, 01:26 AM - Thread Starter
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a lot of test footage, new indy film clips, and demo stuff using all kinds of image dynamics and palettes.

The guys at Red are very smart they knew the test footage and Indy films would not cut it with audiences which are used to seeing their favorite actors on screen. So they obligued in earnest....

There was an intimate white walled closeup of all the top actors, kidding around and pushing each other off camera tom cruise, ben stiller, spielberg and 20 other A league players (I can't remember) the detail was unreal, it's like seeing these actors for the first time.

After seeing that and some 11k scans of Mistic India and the Last Reef, (there are underwater movies being shot on red too maybe that one is red as well) I was sold on 4k.


But the Doremi system is now doing a great job of upscaling the 2k to 4k on 3-D it is fantastic. I am sure the Blu-ray 3-D will be incredible as well in HD to 4k.
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post #28 of 28 Old 01-31-2011, 04:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Are you kidding? the sony is like an old worn out crt by comparison SOFT ALL OVER. It's all about the ansi contrast ratio, the sharpness (MTF), the definition of the pixels and the incredible colorimetry.

If DLP beat 15/70 hands down at this event, 15/70 was always superior to SONY Cinealta. I would not going announcing having seen the future with a trivial improvement, this is a huge improvement.

Also the Red camera footage was incredible. with relatively small file sizes, I would support Red Ray 4k for the home based on what was shown at Moody Gardens.

Thank you. That was exactly the kind of statement I hoped I could provoke you to come with.
Too many people think that 4K is 4K, and no difference between Sony 4K and DLP 4K.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

The guys at Red are very smart they knew the test footage and Indy films would not cut it with audiences which are used to seeing their favorite actors on screen. So they obligued in earnest....

There was an intimate white walled closeup of all the top actors, kidding around and pushing each other off camera tom cruise, ben stiller, spielberg and 20 other A league players (I can't remember) the detail was unreal, it's like seeing these actors for the first time.

Seems to be the RED Reel made for NAB 2009.
NAB 2011 in april is the place to visit where RED will officially launch their new camera system and the RED Ray 4K playback system.

There is also a IBC 2009 RED Reel on youtube, but somebody swapped the original Green Day audio for something else. The original reels can be found here; http://www.red.com/experience/red_reels

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