The official Theta Owners Thread - Page 296 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #8851 of 8875 Old Yesterday, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Steve, so the consensus is to use this diagram, with the seatback reclined or chair removed during measurement if possible? I assume the size of this box matters a little? It looks to be about 25x10x10 inches or so?

Heck if I know? I just started on this Dirac stuff.

Bruce said best to remove all chairs? Or just the one where you are measuring?

To me, it makes more sense that when you run your system, all of the chairs/recliners are in place. So wouldn't measurements with everything in place, reclining to a "normal use" position those that are typically being used in the average viewing/listening session, make more sense?

For me its too much hassle to disconnect each row of recliners and their power recliner mechanisms. So I measure with the recliner reclined but in place.

Just ordered a mini-boom mike from Amazon.com for a whole $25, which will make measuring easier and I won't have to kneel or stand in back of the recliner when I hit the measurement button for Dirac!

You mean you don't remember me? Back 1999 - 2003, I started and moderated the AVS Tweaks forum and also the AVS Special Guests forum.

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post #8852 of 8875 Old Yesterday, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
I have a modded CAPSv3 Zuma with a Sapphire (AMD) video card
Which I use for multichannel music via HDMI

recently got a CAPS4 Pipeline w HDPlex linear power supply for two channel music via USB (and Berkeley Audio USB digital converter

3 Theta Gen VIII DACs

theta CBIV SSP

5 Theta Prometheus mono blocks

5 Aerial 7ts

2 JL Audio F212 subwoofers

theta Compli blu Ray

Directv Genie HR44
Love to hear your system Steve! 😃 must send a thrill down your spine every time you use it! For music playback I go strictly old school, two- channel. Full surround for TV and Blu-Rays!
But I bet it is fun to listen music in surround on your system!
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post #8853 of 8875 Old Yesterday, 07:19 PM
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Love to hear your system Steve! 😃 must send a thrill down your spine every time you use it! For music playback I go strictly old school, two- channel. Full surround for TV and Blu-Rays!
But I bet it is fun to listen music in surround on your system!

I just came from Steve's place, and it sounds fantastic! Two-channel is very impressive, and the multi-channel sounded the best I've heard at his place. Sounds like the venue - much bigger than his actual room. The bass from those JL Audio subs is amazing!


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post #8854 of 8875 Old Yesterday, 08:35 PM
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I left the couch in place. The absorption and reflections it creates will be there when I'm listening.

A mic stand with boom makes this easier and as you found are cheap. For me anyway earplugs are also essential equipment.


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post #8855 of 8875 Old Yesterday, 09:30 PM
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Now we will both have subwoofers with a BOOM and mike stands with a boom!
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post #8856 of 8875 Old Today, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
The user can use the Dirac measurement graph for each pair of speakers (front, center/just 1 speaker/side, back) and determine the lowest practical "crossover" to change the target curve per the instructions starting at page 94 of the CBIV manual. However, the user may want to go to a higher crossover, experiment, look at the objective measurements, and how does it sound.

I started out using 60 Hz for all five 7ts because the measurements indicate this for the lowest crossover for the 7ts. However, my two JL Audio f212 subs are musical and powerful and today I am listening and experimenting having modified target curves with crossover of 80 Hz - and so far I like what I hear, a bit more oomph in the mid and low bass that I like with both movies and music! Pre-Dirac, I had been using a 80 Hz crossover for all of my 7ts - those JL Audio subs simply don't miss a beat and give me more dynamic slam than even the wonderful Aerial 7ts.
Barry Ober of JL Audio recommended I use at least 80 Hz crossover, if not higher, with the JL Audio subs. AS you can guess, I will be experimenting with other crossovers and combinations too!!! As well as with target curves perhaps adding a bit of a boost below 80 Hz or 100 Hz.

Please understand I am far from experienced and certainly not an "expert" on using Dirac. I am plodding along.

Gotta go. Dave (Thezaks) will be here in less than an hour to demo!

Got it - Dirac recommends one crossover point but users have complete control over which point to use. That's great.

Barry Ober's recommendation of 80 hertz xover for JL subs: was it specific to your Aerial 7t or was it a "general" recommendation for most main speakers? Just curious.

You tend to document everything in great details (spillover trait from the "day job"? ) so it is helpful regardless of "expert" level. Thanks Steve.

Regards, Can
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post #8857 of 8875 Old Today, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Theta states in the manual that the crossovers and bass management are now simplified because
with Dirac Live we do not need to do all of the trial and area listening test to determine what sounds the best. Now I must fully agree on this!
I disagree. As Theta knows, I would like to see the Full/XOVR setting reinstated. Good base is distributed base and if one has full range speakers this setting is/was a great one. Dirac Live has not eliminated the need for optimising base - and soaking it up. (REW can be used to measure your decay by frequency.)

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post #8858 of 8875 Old Today, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Thanks Steve (& Brucemk2), so with Dirac the only decision owner has to make now is whether to designate any given speaker as "full range" versus "crossover to subwoofer"? And if designated as "crossover," Dirac will pick the appropriate crossover point for you? Sweet.

Sorry for all the questions; the online manual doesn't have Dirac information yet; plus it's so much faster to ask you here then to look through the manual.

No. You need to select the crossover settings for speakers that will be crossed over.

Dirac sends an impulse, measures the response and creates a filter to try to change the response to match a target curve. It does not interface with settings in the CB like crossover settings. By viewing the impulse-response curve of your speakers you can make judgement calls re how to set the crossovers. But then you also need to think about what the combined effect of your speaker and subwoofer Dirac target curves and the CB crossover settings will be. You may decide to force a different curve in Dirac Live so that the combination better represents an appropriate crossover. It's all very fiddly...

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post #8859 of 8875 Old Today, 09:57 AM
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Removing room objects to do a 'calibration' and then placing them back in the room makes no sense whatsoever...

People might also want to recall the earlier conversation here regarding the "chair" measurements. I believe certain skilled users felt the chair defined too narrow a measuring field. Personally, I just have a 2.5 seater couch and treat the couch as the listening area for measurement.

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post #8860 of 8875 Old Today, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Got it - Dirac recommends one crossover point but users have complete control over which point to use. That's great.

Barry Ober's recommendation of 80 hertz xover for JL subs: was it specific to your Aerial 7t or was it a "general" recommendation for most main speakers? Just curious.

You tend to document everything in great details (spillover trait from the "day job"? ) so it is helpful regardless of "expert" level. Thanks Steve.
Barry's recommendation of at least 80 Hz crossover to me was based on my specific room, speakers and the JL Audio subs I am using - the recommendation perhaps may vary otherwise.

Actually, Barry told me I could probably go even higher than 80 Hz. I am going to try different crossovers for the target curves in the weeks (and months?) to come.

You know what. Different folks and different experts sometimes tell you different things. Each of us in our own system and room and with our own preferences must figure out and "listen" to determine what works best for us.

E.G. Barry strongly recommended that I plug the ports at the rear bottom of each of my Aerial 7ts, so they would function as a sealed enclosure using the two JL f212 subwoofers for the low bass. So I got some acoustical foam and plugged the ports. But I didn't like the sound, I felt that the dynamics of my 7ts were decreased, so I unplugged the ports. Funny thing is some months ago John Gannon,
who was Tech Editor for Stereophile Guide To Home Theater mag back early 2000s, was in town and came over, luved my sonics, and I discused this plug port thing with him, and John said he had tried plugging ports on ported speakers too and never liked the dynamic restriction either!

You mean you don't remember me? Back 1999 - 2003, I started and moderated the AVS Tweaks forum and also the AVS Special Guests forum.

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post #8861 of 8875 Old Today, 10:04 AM
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Cannga, get REW up and start measuring. Then when you come to use Dirac Live you'll find it makes a lot more sense. REW is a much more powerful tool in the sense it does a lot more things. Of course it can't produce the Dirac Live filters (but it can be used to create filters for other software). REW will tell you a lot more about your system than DL.

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post #8862 of 8875 Old Today, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by stevekale View Post
Removing room objects to do a 'calibration' and then placing them back in the room makes no sense whatsoever...

People might also want to recall the earlier conversation here regarding the "chair" measurements. I believe certain skilled users felt the chair defined too narrow a measuring field. Personally, I just have a 2.5 seater couch and treat the couch as the listening area for measurement.
"Great minds think alike" HA!

Yea at some point I will try the couch measurements even though I use recliners.

You mean you don't remember me? Back 1999 - 2003, I started and moderated the AVS Tweaks forum and also the AVS Special Guests forum.

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Cannga, get REW up and start measuring. Then when you come to use Dirac Live you'll find it makes a lot more sense. REW is a much more powerful tool in the sense it does a lot more things. Of course it can't produce the Dirac Live filters (but it can be used to create filters for other software). REW will tell you a lot more about your system than DL.
Yes, sooner or later I know I will have to deal with this. Sigh. Not too old but definitely at an age where these new technical projects don't come as easy as they once did.

Regards, Can
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Yes, sooner or later I know I will have to deal with this. Sigh. Not too old but definitely at an age where these new technical projects don't come as easy as they once did.
My right hip replacement almost a year ago makes this sort of stuff a lot easier now!

You mean you don't remember me? Back 1999 - 2003, I started and moderated the AVS Tweaks forum and also the AVS Special Guests forum.

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post #8865 of 8875 Old Today, 12:58 PM
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Just ordered a mini-boom mike stand from Amazon.com for a whole $25, which will make measuring easier and I won't have to kneel or stand in back of the recliner when I hit the measurement button for Dirac!
I also decided to order the Samson full-size boom mike stand from Amazon.com for a whole $20.

The mini stand will be good to place on a recliner or table; whereas the full-size stand on the floor and reach up higher. This will give me ultimate flexibility in taking measurements for Dirac.

QUESTION: The UMK-1 microphone supplied by Theta, along with Dirac, and with a calibration file for the PC? Does anyone have experience whether using a better more accurate but much more expensive microphone makes any realizable sonic difference using Dirac?

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post #8866 of 8875 Old Today, 01:43 PM
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Yes, sooner or later I know I will have to deal with this. Sigh. Not too old but definitely at an age where these new technical projects don't come as easy as they once did.
Whomever made the point about the "dark side" to this was spot on. Just like doing your own ISF calibration - you can go around and around in circles. After awhile you'll get bored with it. But it is good to correlate things like 'muddied base' with decay patterns - and then buy a bunch of RPG Modex plates.

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QUESTION: The UMK-1 microphone supplied by Theta, along with Dirac, and with a calibration file for the PC? Does anyone have experience whether using a better more accurate but much more expensive microphone makes any realizable sonic difference using Dirac?
Oh God, not again.

My view (and that of the author of REW): what matters most is that you have an accurate calibration file for the mic orientation you are using.

I think you asked about 'multichannel versus stereo Dirac filters'. One thing I would like to try with DL when Theta gets the second filter capacity up and running is an on-axis calibration for stereo (with the horizontal calibration file which Theta supplied initially) rather than the vertical orientation (and associated vertical calibration file) which is recommended by DL for multichannel. As we all know, speakers vary considerably in their off-axis response. An 'on-axis' DL calibration would use the horizontal mic calibration file with the mic pointed/aimed, in horizontal position, at the speaker being impulse-response swept. Of course, it would require some quick repositioning as DL sweeps first one and then the other speaker.

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post #8868 of 8875 Old Today, 02:21 PM
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E.G. Barry strongly recommended that I plug the ports at the rear bottom of each of my Aerial 7ts, so they would function as a sealed enclosure using the two JL f212 subwoofers for the low bass. So I got some acoustical foam and plugged the ports. But I didn't like the sound, I felt that the dynamics of my 7ts were decreased, so I unplugged the ports. Funny thing is some months ago John Gannon,
who was Tech Editor for Stereophile Guide To Home Theater mag back early 2000s, was in town and came over, luved my sonics, and I discused this plug port thing with him, and John said he had tried plugging ports on ported speakers too and never liked the dynamic restriction either!
I would hope that Aerial considered the ports carefully when designing the speakers!!!!

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post #8869 of 8875 Old Today, 02:24 PM
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Got it - Dirac recommends one crossover point but users have complete control over which point to use. That's great.
Just to be clear/precise - Dirac Live doesn't make any recommendations on how to crossover your speakers. It produces an impulse/response chart for you to look at and then calculates a filter based on the target curve you dial in.

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I wouldn't be too concerned with bass management in the Casablanca IV. We at Theta Digital have already expressed our strong intent to make Dirac Unison available on the platform. As you may already well know, Dirac Unison send specially calibrated signals to every speaker in the system capable of bass response to smooth frequency and phase in the listening area. In our view, Unison completes the revolution in room optimization. For more details: http://www.dirac.se/en/solutions/hom...ac-unison.aspx

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I'm not fully up to speed on Unison's technology (the stuff on their website is just a bunch of marketing mumbo jumbo) but surely unless Unison is cognisant of the CB's crossover settings or the impulse signals are sent through the CB's crossover settings it will still be sub-optimal. I prefer the latter. My desired workflow with Dirac Live would be to sweep each speaker independently (either with Dirac or other software such as REW) in order to understand frequency response and settle on crossover settings for the CB. Then have Dirac derive its optimising filters with the crossovers in place. A front channel crossed over to a sub is treated as if the two speakers are a single unit with one combined impulse-response profile.

I guess if Unison becomes a dynamic crossover solution, completely replacing the CB crossovers, then things could be interesting. That would be quite a solution. Sweep each speaker to test in-room capabilities and impulse-response. Then, for example, send signals with frequencies below Freq X (the Schroeder transition frequency 250Hz?) to every speaker capable of reproducing them, adjusting volume on a frequency-dependent basis to reflect the combined impact of X speakers firing at any given frequency, for a fully-distributed (or as distributed as possible) base solution. But is this really where Unison (and Theta) is going? And such a dynamic solution would require very significant processing power especially if it is to work on 14 channels at 192kHz!

EDIT: oops! 32 channels

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Hey Jeff, on a separate note - when can expect some news on the new DACs? Are we near or far away?

(That announcement was banged out the door six months ago now with an availability of June 2015.)

EDIT: and I missed the fact that the press announcement was reworked to rename the CB V the CB E?

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Read the CBIV manual on Dirac starting at page 94 for more info and pictures of the target curves to create the Dirac filter.


The link to the manual on the Theta website would appear to load an old version...

http://thetadigital.com/downloads/Th...s%20Manual.pdf

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post #8874 of 8875 Old Today, 04:22 PM
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The link to the manual on the Theta website would appear to load an old version...

http://thetadigital.com/downloads/Th...s%20Manual.pdf
The above link is NOT the proper link shown at the current Theta Digital Website. The proper Theta Digital link at its website shows CBIV manual version 4.03.1 and includes a detailed Dirac section starting at Appendix F.

http://thetadigital.com/manuals.shtml

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereojeff View Post
I wouldn't be too concerned with bass management in the Casablanca IV. We at Theta Digital have already expressed our strong intent to make Dirac Unison available on the platform. As you may already well know, Dirac Unison send specially calibrated signals to every speaker in the system capable of bass response to smooth frequency and phase in the listening area. In our view, Unison completes the revolution in room optimization. For more details: http://www.dirac.se/en/solutions/hom...ac-unison.aspx

Jeff

Thanks Jeff. Is this just a firmware upgrade to the CB IV or an upgrade? Looking forward to it. The current system is amazing. Can't imagine what the future holds.

While you're working on the software how about a feature that I think more than just I would appreciate. The ability to measure the system after applying the Dirac filter, crossovers, and speakers levels resulting from the measurements. Even if it's just one point in the sweet spot. Seeing what the overall system ended up as without resorting to a third party solution like REW would be sweet.




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