The official Theta Owners Thread - Page 319 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #9541 of 9562 Old 08-31-2015, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by stevekale View Post
*** personally, as I have said before, I would like the ability to sweep the front L (or R) plus sub as a 'single speaker' with the chosen crossover settings engaged but this isn't available (and likely will never be) from Dirac. It would save some of the addition necessary (CB slope plus Dirac curve slope) and, more importantly, would smooth the net response of the combined speakers rather than combining the smoothed response of each individual speaker - the net is what we care about and things are never perfectly equalised; one might find you are trying to correct a challenging null in one speaker and a boost in the other when actually the two would net naturally.
This creates its own set of problems; I tried this with Acourate and it didn't work very well for a system with mono subs. The issue I had is that while it created a great result for the left speaker + mono subs, and, a great result for the right speaker + mono sub, the result with mono material was not very good as the Left and Right correction filters "worked against" each other. Since most lower frequency material tends to be more monophonic than discrete L or R, the end result was not very satisfying in practice. In my system, I get better results with separate corrections for the L, R, and mono subs.
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post #9542 of 9562 Old 08-31-2015, 01:39 PM
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I think this is confusing/debatable. I would set the final Levels with the crossovers engaged. After all, that's how they will be operating. For doing the sweeps and making sure the volume is in the required sweet spot for DL sweep/measurement the speakers need to be set to Full. Having said that, I suspect differences that would result are likely to be tiny given the frequency range of noise sent to mains versus sub for level setting.
I agree with this, set levels to include bass management related rolloff. However an even better way to do it is to abandon the SPL meter and use REW to align the levels through the critical "power" range from 100-500Hz. If you do that it doesn't matter if bass management is on or off.

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post #9543 of 9562 Old 08-31-2015, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Brucemck2 View Post
This creates its own set of problems; I tried this with Acourate and it didn't work very well for a system with mono subs. The issue I had is that while it created a great result for the left speaker + mono subs, and, a great result for the right speaker + mono sub, the result with mono material was not very good as the Left and Right correction filters "worked against" each other. Since most lower frequency material tends to be more monophonic than discrete L or R, the end result was not very satisfying in practice. In my system, I get better results with separate corrections for the L, R, and mono subs.
+1.

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post #9544 of 9562 Old 08-31-2015, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
I agree with this, set levels to include bass management related rolloff. However an even better way to do it is to abandon the SPL meter and use REW to align the levels through the critical "power" range from 100-500Hz. If you do that it doesn't matter if bass management is on or off.
Nyal, have you ever calibrated or setup a Theta CB SSP system? The Theta manual instructs calibrating with all speakers set to "Full" and using the subwoofer LFE track as well - and Dave (Thezaks) called Theta and was advised this as well.
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post #9545 of 9562 Old 08-31-2015, 09:37 PM
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Nyal, have you ever calibrated or setup a Theta CB SSP system? The Theta manual instructs calibrating with all speakers set to "Full" and using the subwoofer LFE track as well - and Dave (Thezaks) called Theta and was advised this as well.
Yes, I have calibrated Theta CBs. I'm also HAA Level II certified.


I can totally understand why the Theta manual says what it says. It makes complete sense, and most people only have an SPL meter. However for the "uber geeks" at AVS and people into more advanced DIY calibration, there is a level beyond just using pink noise and an SPL meter. If you can work REW then you can get more data on what is going on, and with that data make better decisions on setup. The only time I use an SPL meter is if I need to calibrate the absolute levels in REW. Otherwise it stays in the calibration Pelican wheely case!


For speaker level matching I recommend focusing on the 100-500Hz range. Take a measurement with REW, 1/1 smooth it, then look at the relative SPLs. Adjust from there. Most pre-pros and AVRs use band limited pink noise however I feel that the band limited signal is not optimal, as it generally covers a range which isn't that important. These are my opinions; we have better tools than C weighted SPL meters now, so I prefer using them.


For matching speaker to sub level, focus on the crossover range to the speakers, and ensure that there are no obvious discontinuities. There's a lot of latitude with sub level, as many prefer a boost to the sub. I think it's preferable to do this via a target curve EQ rather than level set, as that way you have continuity from the bass managed speakers to the sub, rather than a big discontinuity with all the bass coming out of the sub +6dB hotter (I had one client who liked the sub set at +20dB....).


With Dirac Live you need to run the level set again at the end, as Dirac makes EQ adjustments that may require small tweaks to the levels.

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post #9546 of 9562 Old 08-31-2015, 11:20 PM
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Yes, I have calibrated Theta CBs. I'm also HAA Level II certified.


I can totally understand why the Theta manual says what it says. It makes complete sense, and most people only have an SPL meter. However for the "uber geeks" at AVS and people into more advanced DIY calibration, there is a level beyond just using pink noise and an SPL meter. If you can work REW then you can get more data on what is going on, and with that data make better decisions on setup. The only time I use an SPL meter is if I need to calibrate the absolute levels in REW. Otherwise it stays in the calibration Pelican wheely case!


For speaker level matching I recommend focusing on the 100-500Hz range. Take a measurement with REW, 1/1 smooth it, then look at the relative SPLs. Adjust from there. Most pre-pros and AVRs use band limited pink noise however I feel that the band limited signal is not optimal, as it generally covers a range which isn't that important. These are my opinions; we have better tools than C weighted SPL meters now, so I prefer using them.


For matching speaker to sub level, focus on the crossover range to the speakers, and ensure that there are no obvious discontinuities. There's a lot of latitude with sub level, as many prefer a boost to the sub. I think it's preferable to do this via a target curve EQ rather than level set, as that way you have continuity from the bass managed speakers to the sub, rather than a big discontinuity with all the bass coming out of the sub +6dB hotter (I had one client who liked the sub set at +20dB....).


With Dirac Live you need to run the level set again at the end, as Dirac makes EQ adjustments that may require small tweaks to the levels.
thanks. Great info!

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post #9547 of 9562 Old 09-01-2015, 12:04 AM
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Even better workflow....just have Nyal come over to do it all for you and get it right! Stuff messing around with all this cr*p...

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post #9548 of 9562 Old 09-01-2015, 09:38 AM
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Even better workflow....just have Nyal come over to do it all for you and get it right! Stuff messing around with all this cr*p...
When I think like you twice in 24 hours I get scared!

Its clear Nyal really knows his stuff. And I like that his approach isn't to overdamp and kill the room like so many so-called "experts".
Unless one lives not too far from Nyal in California, or unless one has a really big $$$ job where Nyal is doing most or all of it, I imagine the cost effective option is to use Nyal's "remote" services. Steve, you could even do that from the UK!

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post #9549 of 9562 Old 09-01-2015, 09:51 AM
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LOL! When I have a more permanent room I will definitely do so!

In the interim, Nyal, while we have your attention I was just looking at how to use a band-limited impulse response in REW to align the timing of a subwoofer and main speakers (here). (I am very sceptical in relation to the 12ms 'group delay' figure my JL Audio dealer gave me.) Do you agree with the general approach shown in posts 1-4 of the link? I was then going to follow your guidance here in relation to setting phase on the sub.

Hopefully this isn't too far off-topic for Theta owners while we wait for another '400 hour burn in time discussion'.

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post #9550 of 9562 Old 09-01-2015, 10:31 AM
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Hopefully this isn't too far off-topic for Theta owners while we wait for another '400 hour burn in time discussion'.
Hey Steve, glad you mentioned it! I hope there's some sort of burn in needed for running with Dirac "on" (perhaps additional circuitry is now being used?). I did two calibrations in the past 36 hours, and neither one sounds very good so far...

Dave
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post #9551 of 9562 Old 09-01-2015, 10:33 AM
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Nah, it just takes time for your brain to get used to the different sound...

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post #9552 of 9562 Old 09-01-2015, 11:55 AM
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Nah, it just takes time for your brain to get used to the different sound...
I wish that's all it took!

Dave
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post #9553 of 9562 Old 09-01-2015, 12:31 PM
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LOL! When I have a more permanent room I will definitely do so!

In the interim, Nyal, while we have your attention I was just looking at how to use a band-limited impulse response in REW to align the timing of a subwoofer and main speakers (here). (I am very sceptical in relation to the 12ms 'group delay' figure my JL Audio dealer gave me.) Do you agree with the general approach shown in posts 1-4 of the link? I was then going to follow your guidance here in relation to setting phase on the sub.

Hopefully this isn't too far off-topic for Theta owners while we wait for another '400 hour burn in time discussion'.

The premise of using group delay to align subs is solid, but assumes that the frequency response of the speaker and sub are similar across the sweep range. For sweep range you'd probably want to use one octave above and below the crossover point. It's more a tactic that works very well for live sound and less well for home theater, especially with multiple distributed subs.


Generally my approach is to use impulse response first of all to check the main/first peak is going in the correct direction for sub and speakers (i.e. polarity), then use time delay to rough in the start time of the impulse responses (similar to the approach used in the linked HTS post). Once that is done I will go to the phase and frequency response charts and do some trial and error adjustments of delay until best integration is reached. Best integration = flattest frequency response and phase traces that track each other.

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post #9554 of 9562 Old 09-01-2015, 12:34 PM
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Hey Steve, glad you mentioned it! I hope there's some sort of burn in needed for running with Dirac "on" (perhaps additional circuitry is now being used?). I did two calibrations in the past 36 hours, and neither one sounds very good so far...

Dave
In my experience the main area to pay attention to is the "house curve", in particular the amount of rolloff at high frequencies and the boost at low frequencies. The boost at low frequencies makes a lot of difference, even 1dB boost is audible. Review the JBL Synthesis house curve for a starting point as to the shape of the boost to apply. At high frequencies my approach is to not have Dirac boost the frequency response...essentially I will look to match the slope of the frequency response at the listening position to the Dirac curve. The shape of the Dirac curve in the high frequencies will vary depending on what kind of speakers you are using...wide dispersion speakers will have a flatter curve, narrow dispersion speakers a more sloped off curve.

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post #9555 of 9562 Old 09-01-2015, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
For speaker level matching I recommend focusing on the 100-500Hz range. Take a measurement with REW, 1/1 smooth it, then look at the relative SPLs. Adjust from there. Most pre-pros and AVRs use band limited pink noise however I feel that the band limited signal is not optimal, as it generally covers a range which isn't that important. These are my opinions; we have better tools than C weighted SPL meters now, so I prefer using them.
Nyal, would you please explain why you would use mid-bass frequency range for level matching?

I would have thought mid-range frequency would be more appropriate as this is the area of highest sensitivity and also where human voices and most movie sounds are concentrated, no?

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post #9556 of 9562 Old 09-01-2015, 12:56 PM
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Nyal, would you please explain why you would use mid-bass frequency range for level matching?

I would have thought mid-range frequency would be more appropriate as this is the area of highest sensitivity and also where human voices and most movie sounds are concentrated, no?

Most voice energy is in the 80-1000Hz range. For level setting speakers I'd mainly look at the 100-500Hz range, as this is the range where most sound track and music energy is. I did a quick google search, all I could find was this: http://www.bnoack.com/index.html?htt...ech-level.html. The rest of the studies I have read are all in journals and text books.
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post #9557 of 9562 Old 09-01-2015, 01:08 PM
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I did a quick google search, all I could find was this: http://www.bnoack.com/index.html?htt...ech-level.html.
http://www.independentrecording.net/...in_display.htm

Ever handy.
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post #9558 of 9562 Old 09-01-2015, 01:22 PM
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Most pre-pros and AVRs use band limited pink noise however I feel that the band limited signal is not optimal, as it generally covers a range which isn't that important. These are my opinions; we have better tools than C weighted SPL meters now, so I prefer using them.
How limited is this please? What frequency range do you generally/typically see? TIA

With respect to Casablanca CB III HD, another point I've observed is that the internal noise generator only sends signal to any particular speaker full range, even if said speaker is set to be cross-overred to subwoof. For example when testing Left Surround speaker crossover'ed at 80 hz, the only pink noise is heard in the Left Surround speaker and not the Subwoofer.

As opposed to using the AIX test disc; here Left Surround and Subwoofer together got the signal and both make pink noise when the channel is tested. It does make a difference in my system and to me seemingly the more "correct" test.

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post #9559 of 9562 Old 09-01-2015, 07:31 PM
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How limited is this please? What frequency range do you generally/typically see? TIA

With respect to Casablanca CB III HD, another point I've observed is that the internal noise generator only sends signal to any particular speaker full range, even if said speaker is set to be cross-overred to subwoof. For example when testing Left Surround speaker crossover'ed at 80 hz, the only pink noise is heard in the Left Surround speaker and not the Subwoofer.

As opposed to using the AIX test disc; here Left Surround and Subwoofer together got the signal and both make pink noise when the channel is tested. It does make a difference in my system and to me seemingly the more "correct" test.
Good question, I am not 100% sure if there is a standard for band limited pink noise. 500-2000Hz seems to be common. Not sure where or why this originated, certainly way before my time, and have not seen the psychoacoustic rationale discussed in any books I have read.
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post #9560 of 9562 Old 09-02-2015, 06:05 PM
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This thread got a whole lot better in the last bunch of posts. No disrespect intended to the burn-in-the-equipment-for-400hrs posters though.


I used REW and the distance settings to improve the blend between my speakers and the subs. Basically ran a sweep up to about 200hz and changed the distance of the subs (JL Audio) by half a foot at a time in the prepro (and measured each change) and was amazed at how wrong I had it set up originally. What can I say, when I bought my JLs years ago I had no idea that the dsp in the sub amp "delayed" the sound and effectively made it seem like it was further away than it physically was. It's funny because all that time I thought my Trinnov ST2 was screwy because it gave a "distance" reading that was quite a bit further than the physical distance. Well it turns out the Trinnov was right, lol. The point is that just the basic "correct" setting of speaker distances really improved the overlap between my speakers and subs.


I can just imagine how much better it would be with Nyal fiddling with the controls (based on reading his posts, and opinions from other members). I started off with just Rives (RIP) when they designed my room. I then had Adam Pelz come up (another HAA II calibrator) and he made some nice improvements without introducing any processing (my request at the time). Next came the Trinnov which has been amazing, and quite frankly better "value" than an on-site calibration without Trinnov. Most recently I've been using Dirac via the Emotiva and it's really really good for ht (I haven't tried it for 2 channel yet). These tools are quite complicated and I'm sure that I am not getting the most out of them even though I think I'm reasonably good at setting them up. I will definitely consider a pro when I'm designing Dungeon V2.

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post #9561 of 9562 Old Yesterday, 04:33 PM
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Change of thought...but does anyone think Theta will change the Serial connection on the Casa to a possible IP protocol? Using WiFi to control the unit instead of Serial?
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post #9562 of 9562 Old Today, 11:10 AM
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I've been waiting for news to break. Has anyone heard the new Xtreme 3.0 DACS on their CBIV?

Thanks,

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