The official Theta Owners Thread - Page 393 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #11761 of 11777 Old Today, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by k_lewis View Post
Yes - That is what I posted earlier.

This is just a guess, the internal noise generator may be called "inaccurate" because perhaps it is not outputting the same exact volume level tone for each speaker. And that is why Theta may prefer we use a verified accurate and equal volume set of channel tones , such as on the AIX disc. Again, JMHO.

See my post above. The difference may not be the level per se, but related to

1. crossover points of speakers (higher crossover points cause mismatch, low crossover points are ok).
2. the bandwidth difference between Theta (narrow band) and AIX (wide band).

I plan to get to the bottom of this, hopefully :-). But first, maybe @Roger Dressler could explain why it is that test tone should be done with narrow bandwidth? If so, ideally what we would like is a 7.1.4 test disc with narrow bandwidth. (Current AIX is out of the running as it doesn't have ceiling channels.)

Regards, Can
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post #11762 of 11777 Old Today, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Good morning Roger, after a good night sleep, I think I may have found the answer. My theory is it's related to 2 aspects of the testing:

1. My speakers' crossover points: main at 40 Hz, center at 60 Hz, and surround at 80 Hz. The speakers that come out higher with THX are the ones with the high crossover points.
2. When Theta's internal noise generator is invoked - two aspects are different from THX signal:
***a. Theta's signal is narrow band
***b. I have to check again or someone from Theta could confirm, the signal say for left surround is sent to the left surround speaker only, and not through the subwoofer. Contrast this with signal from AIX disc, that being an external signal from a blu-ray "movie," is sent through both surround and subwoofer. Hence, at same volume on Casablanca, AIX is louder.

I believe that if b above is true, it is the main reason for the discrepancy. And if b is not true, then a is the reason.
Why I believe I am on the right track, fingers crossed:
1. The subwoofer level test match closely between Theta and AIX.
2. The speakers with low crossover point, my main speakers, match closely between Theta and AIX.
3. The speakers that do not match are the ones with high crossover points, my center (60 Hz), and surround (80 Hz).


Could someone from Theta (Jeff?) please post:
a. the frequency range of Theta's internal noise generator?
b. looking at say the left surround internal test tone: is it send to both surround and subwoofer, or to surround only?

Knowing the above 2 and with Roger's help, I am confident we could unravel this mystery.
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post #11763 of 11777 Old Today, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
See my post above. The difference may not be the level per se, but related to

1. crossover points of speakers (higher crossover points cause mismatch, low crossover points are ok).
2. the bandwidth difference between Theta (narrow band) and AIX (wide band).

I plan to get to the bottom of this, hopefully :-). But first, maybe @Roger Dressler could explain why it is that test tone should be done with narrow bandwidth? If so, ideally what we would like is a 7.1.4 test disc with narrow bandwidth. (Current AIX is out of the running as it doesn't have ceiling channels.)
Yes you have n interesting point there but I think you may be over complicating it. I would suggest calling Theta / JB to discuss this and get the best answer as it relates to your system with the CBIVa. I do not feel like you are going to get complete, unbiased advice from anyone here including myself.

So speaking of advice, this is mine FWIW. Step back and make it simple. Follow the Theta setup instructions and use the AIX disc (best you can anyway, I know the extra atmos channels are still an issue). Shut off xovers before your initial speaker balance test. I can see xovers affecting db reading at your meter by affecting room gain at certain frequencies. When you do a basic, speaker balance setup you are essentially doing "rough construction" on building your system. After you set the speaker balances so they all read equal db, and sub a few db higher, then move on to config your xovers and finalize with Dirac. then from there, listen to source material and make final level tweaks as needed for different source inputs.

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post #11764 of 11777 Old Today, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Could someone from Theta (Jeff?) please post:
a. the frequency range of Theta's internal noise generator?
b. looking at say the left surround internal test tone: is it send to both surround and subwoofer, or to surround only?

Knowing the above 2 and with Roger's help, I am confident we could unravel this mystery.
Theta would be your best source of guidance and a phone call would be your best medium (unless you are out of country, then I understand).

I'm laughing about the 'with Roger's help' thing. All he did is end up reiterating what I said initially that he initially disagreed with. But hey I'm Joe Nobody here. If you can only absorb info through this person so be it, as long as you get the help you need. But really all that I see here is the advice given made things a lot more complicated for you on an initial setup process that is actually very simple. IMO if you can take a few minutes to call Theta they will indeed help you get back on track. Good luck and above all, have fun and enjoy your new IVa.

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post #11765 of 11777 Old Today, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Hmmm - in the THX Optimizer there is only one audio test right? And that one in both DVD discs that I used to test does step the noise through the channels, but IIRC it also says specifically this is a test for location only, not level setting.The discs are (2 horrible movies with 2 horrible actors ), Pearl Harbor and Star Wars Attack of the Clones.
For some reason, THX originally used the name "OptiMode" (see Toy Story DVD), and there the wording said pink noise at 75 dB, use it to check for correct location and level. Then on later discs they use the term Optimizer, and use it for location. But the signals themselves are the same, and they are indeed able to be used for a 75 dB calibration. Can't hurt to give it a try with the old SPL meter.

Maybe there were too many people contacting DVD companies to ask how to calibrate to 75 dB, so they asked THX to remove that wording. Studios hate anything that engenders confusion with their product.

Hey, Pearl Harbor isn't all bad. Try playing the initial attack scene with headphones -- select the Dolby Headphone soundtrack on the audio menu.
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post #11766 of 11777 Old Today, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Good morning Roger, after a good night sleep, I think I may have found the answer. My theory is it's related to 2 aspects of the testing:

1. My speakers' crossover points: main at 40 Hz, center at 60 Hz, and surround at 80 Hz. The speakers that come out higher with THX are the ones with the high crossover points.
2. When Theta's internal noise generator is invoked - two aspects are different from THX signal:
***a. Theta's signal is narrow band
***b. I have to check again or someone from Theta could confirm, the signal say for left surround is sent to the left surround speaker only, and not through the subwoofer. Contrast this with signal from AIX disc, that being an external signal from a blu-ray "movie," is sent through both surround and subwoofer. Hence, at same volume on Casablanca, AIX is louder.
The choice of crossover point will of course change how much of the wideband signals from AIX comes from the main speakers, but that should be compensated by the remainder coming from the subwoofer. The problem is that when initially calibrating a speaker system, it it not possible to know how much to tweak the sub vs the main channel as both affect the SPL. Only once they have been matched to achieve flat response across the whole spectrum can you then get an accurate SPL setting.

This is a good example of why it makes o sense to calibrate speakers with an SPL meter and wideband test signals.

If you are seeing 2 dB stronger levels from the smaller speakers than the larger ones, it suggests the subs are running a wee bit hot. But don't use that as guide. Use the THX noise and see how that compares with the internal test noise.

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post #11767 of 11777 Old Today, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
For some reason, THX originally used the name "OptiMode" (see Toy Story DVD), and there the wording said pink noise at 75 dB, use it to check for correct location and level. Then on later discs they use the term Optimizer, and use it for location. But the signals themselves are the same, and they are indeed able to be used for a 75 dB calibration. Can't hurt to give it a try with the old SPL meter.

Maybe there were too many people contacting DVD companies to ask how to calibrate to 75 dB, so they asked THX to remove that wording. Studios hate anything that engenders confusion with their product.

Hey, Pearl Harbor isn't all bad. Try playing the initial attack scene with headphones -- select the Dolby Headphone soundtrack on the audio menu.
This is misinformation and not applicable in regards to level setting of the CB. We are not calibrating the CB processor global master volume for a 75db Dolby reference level in the speaker balance setup process, using the AIX tones (or any other wide / narrow / pink / white / DD / LPCM tones).

Example, in case no one is reading the owner manual or contacting Theta. On step 1 of setting up the speaker balance test in the Theta CB4 / 4a manual, set FL speaker trim to ZERO, then raise master volume to read 70db on your spl meter at the general listening position. That's it. Since we are leaving trim at ZERO, we leave the overall global master volume level reference unchanged. Step 2, move on to next speaker but this time you will adjust channel trim to match 70db. same for next speaker, etc. We are only balancing level response of all speakers to ensure general db output is even at the listening position, relative to FL. That is all, simple. Easy peazy.

The CB master volume level / gain output is already optimal per Theta specs, which may or may not be in line with Dolby Lab specs.
You must do the speaker balance process to compensate for external factors such as (but not limited to): Source that is playing the reference tones, speaker placement, speaker sensitivity / response variations between same or different model of speakers, length of cable runs, amplifiers, differences in cable types, differences in speaker impedance.

But regardless of the above, follow the Theta manual or call Theta for correct information if unsure.

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post #11768 of 11777 Old Today, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by k_lewis View Post
Yes - That is what I posted earlier.
I couched it as "there may be more to the story" because it may turn out that the internal noise is not as far off as the initial results Cannga reported would indicate. Let's see what he finds when comparing them with the THX noise signals.

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Good point to note on the issue where the AIX disc tones do not cover the extended Atmos channels. That is very odd.
The AIX disc was created in 2009, when 7.1 was king of the road.

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post #11769 of 11777 Old Today, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
I plan to get to the bottom of this, hopefully :-). But first, maybe @Roger Dressler could explain why it is that test tone should be done with narrow bandwidth? If so, ideally what we would like is a 7.1.4 test disc with narrow bandwidth. (Current AIX is out of the running as it doesn't have ceiling channels.)
The narrow band signals reduce uncertainty. If the frequency responses at the bass or treble ends are not reasonably flat, the level of the sounds in the mid frequency range could be set too high or low relative to the other channels that have different response characteristics. The goal was to ensure midrange frequencies (e.g., voices) were well matched across the main/surround speakers.

It is also much easier to judge the level of a test noise from the various speakers if they sound alike, in case there's no SPL meter available. A narrow band signal will not be affected as much as a wideband signal in the presence of response errors in the bass/treble regions.

As we're already seeing, a wideband test signal introduces unnecessary uncertainty to the process, especially for integrating subwoofers.

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post #11770 of 11777 Old Today, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
I couched it as "there may be more to the story" because it may turn out that the internal noise is not as far off as the initial results Cannga reported would indicate. Let's see what he finds when comparing them with the THX noise signals.

The AIX disc was created in 2009, when 7.1 was king of the road.
I continue to disagree with your perspective. All this person is looking to do is set up his new CB4a system properly so he can get on with enjoying it. You're having him do all this crazy stuff which is not necessary, not applicable, and will be endlessly headache-inducing. If you don't like what Theta has given their customers in regards to setup material, or, has written in the current owner manual (which is actually correct!!), why are you here? There are other brand forum threads with high end processors that do use an initial Dolby Labs volume reference calibration routine. The CB is not one of them. Could be maybe you are the one stuck in 2007? (jest meant in good fun).

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post #11771 of 11777 Old Today, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by k_lewis View Post
This is misinformation and not applicable in regards to level setting of the CB. We are not calibrating the CB processor global master volume for a 75db Dolby reference level in the speaker balance setup process, using the AIX tones (or any other wide / narrow / pink / white / DD / LPCM tones).
Cannga asked about calibrating his system to a known reference level. That is why we are discussing 75 dB as a reference level.

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post #11772 of 11777 Old Today, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Cannga asked about calibrating his system to a known reference level. That is why we are discussing 75 dB as a reference level.
And you should know that this is not applicable to the CB4 / 4a, nor is it even worthwhile to pursue- No tangible positive result even contemplating it. Your only having someone chase his tail for no benefit.

Can it be done? sure. what is the benefit of doing this if you follow the actual setup instructions provided by Theta? none! JMO...

You do realize this CANNOT be accomplished unless you revise the global master volume level on the CB. E.G. you would START with setting the master volume to a preferred physical level, like say "45", then use the LF trim to hit reference 75db. Then move on to other channels adjusting the level trim. This is a very rudimentary example, and of course is not at all applicable to the CB. I hope you do understand this (huge) difference between audio setups on various SSP's, and the uniqueness of the CB.

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post #11773 of 11777 Old Today, 01:20 PM
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k, cool down, you are the one "diluting" the conversation here. As someone else has already mentioned, you are trying to "advise" a pro with 100x the knowledge/experience of a typical amateur (you and me) LOL. And FWIW, I am no rookie either when it comes to subjective evaluation and audio setup, etc. Roger is not confusing me, not yet anyway , and I am not blindly following him. I do recognize he thinks of issues a few steps ahead, which someone else is NOT seeing here :-).

There are issues here that I am trying to understand, from Roger, not you. And it's beyond "call x" (I will of course call, but not yet.). So, please, cut the noise.

Regards, Can
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post #11774 of 11777 Old Today, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
k, cool down, you are the ones creating the noise here. As someone else has already mentioned, you are trying to "advise" a pro with 100x the knowledge/experience of a typical amateur (you and me) LOL. And FWIW, I am no rookie either. Roger is not confusing me, not yet anyway , and I am not blindly following him. I do recognize he thinks of issues a few steps ahead, which someone else is NOT seeing here :-).

There are issues here that I am trying to understand, from Roger, not you. And it's beyond "call x." So please cut the noise.
What?? Wow that is hilarious! Cut the noise? Will do.

Let's sum this up- Supposed expert: Knocking Theta's material and setup instructions, eventually gave you the "answer" on speaker balance setup that I had already given you (he basically just reiterated what I posted it after initially disagreeing with it), and is now having you chase your tail with nonsense about calibrating the CB4a to a DD reference level. I get what you are asking but it is not applicable and a completely unnecessary exercise. You gain no tangible benefit.

I gave you the correct setup info that you can take to the bank for a quick and accurate, painless ordeal. But if this guy is your idol and I walked in on something I don't completely understand, I'll gladly bow out and you can continue the blind discourse in uselessness.

> Don't assume someone is an amateur in the area of audio and technology. Not everyone blows their own horn.
> Don't assume someone with a very narrow expert skill set in an outdated technology is automatically an entire subject matter expert. If you cannot see the inaccurate advice given and would rather slap someone down who was trying to help you and actually gave you accurate info, I don't really know what to say. I always thought common sense would prevail over fan club. Go figure.

.

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post #11775 of 11777 Old Today, 02:37 PM
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..I'll gladly bow out..
You got your last words, now please keep your words.
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post #11776 of 11777 Old Today, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
The narrow band signals reduce uncertainty. If the frequency responses at the bass or treble ends are not reasonably flat, the level of the sounds in the mid frequency range could be set too high or low relative to the other channels that have different response characteristics. The goal was to ensure midrange frequencies (e.g., voices) were well matched across the main/surround speakers.

It is also much easier to judge the level of a test noise from the various speakers if they sound alike, in case there's no SPL meter available. A narrow band signal will not be affected as much as a wideband signal in the presence of response errors in the bass/treble regions.

As we're already seeing, a wideband test signal introduces unnecessary uncertainty to the process, especially for integrating subwoofers.
And this is the goal because midrange most accurately reflect perceived loudness?
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post #11777 of 11777 Old Today, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
For some reason, THX originally used the name "OptiMode" (see Toy Story DVD), and there the wording said pink noise at 75 dB, use it to check for correct location and level. Then on later discs they use the term Optimizer, and use it for location. But the signals themselves are the same, and they are indeed able to be used for a 75 dB calibration. Can't hurt to give it a try with the old SPL meter.

Maybe there were too many people contacting DVD companies to ask how to calibrate to 75 dB, so they asked THX to remove that wording. Studios hate anything that engenders confusion with their product.

Hey, Pearl Harbor isn't all bad. Try playing the initial attack scene with headphones -- select the Dolby Headphone soundtrack on the audio menu.
The attack scene is the only reason why I bought this disc. I like the explosion from the torpedo that lifts the ship up also.

Yep my disc's THX Optimizer test states strictly for location only. Will run test tonight. BTW the Optimizer shows the first bug that I found in Casablanca IVa: with lossy Dolby Digital, the back channels of lossy 7.1 are not reproduced in my back speakers, instead appearing on the side speakers. Will recheck setting but so far it's silent back there. In both direct and upmix mode.

Also to clarify, my test set the Theta's internal noise generator as reference, then measured differences caused by AIX. IOW Theta's noise is used first so that it's all 75 dB across, THEN I played the AIX disc. So any difference could either be AIX too loud, or Theta too low. Not necessarily because my subwoofer is run hot. I imagine for those that have 80 Hz crossover point across all speakers, there will be no discrepancy among channels. Lastly the subwoofer tests, which does not involve speaker/subwoof crossover, match perfectly and sound pretty full as is, I can't imagine raise it another 6 dB.

Regards, Can
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